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Old 12-19-2012, 07:16 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by pastarocket View Post
Instead of the nursery rhyme song "London Bridge is falling down", how about a new song "Port Mann Bridge is spewing ice, spewing ice, spewing ice".

-funny and truthful comments on news1130.com about the Port Mann Bridge:

Port Mann Bridge is open | News1130



we now have a bridge that cannot hack snow. just great ! a fricken useless bridge. drive it and it can kill you ! we want our money back !!!
December 19, 2012 at 5:57 pm
george says:

This would not be so bad if you did not have to pay a toll for the privilege of having your car smashed up. Thank you Kevin “Adolph” Falcon.
The Old Port Mann Bridge may have had lower capacity, but at least it never SHUT DOWN THE FREEWAY!
Sure is a good thing we have a new high capacity bridge to make commuting so much faster. Oh wait, it is shut down due to a little snow, creating a commuting hell never before seen. Thank you for forcing us to pay tolls for a “better commute”.
You're so unbelievably short sighted, you can't see past your own ignorance.

You, along with all the usual twits on news1130, have somehow come to the conclusion that engineers did not account for mild snowfall during the design of the bridge, based on empirical evidence from a single storm. To even suggest engineers are that incompetent is absurd, the Port Mann wasn't a Grade 12 physics student project.The truly probable explanation is that a highly unlikely combination of weather patterns occurred in series, resulting in ice build up, snow build up, and finally rapid melting that caused it to fall in sheets. It just coincidentally occurred shortly after the bridge opened. Ice is reported to have fallen in sheets from the Alex Fraser's cables as well, which, shockingly, shares a similar design to the new Port Mann, and has never experienced this issue.
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:33 PM   #302
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seems like the majority of the falling ice was all from the cables

line the cables with some sort of weather resistant material/salt/heat/whatever

prosper
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:03 PM   #303
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And now we start to see why the engineers are engineers and the e-critics aren't: first thing everybody wants is some way to heat the cables. Sure, that'll work. And cost a fortune to design, implement, retrofit, and operate.

I don't pretend to be an engineer, but seems to me like there's a fairly simple fix: a small (maybe 3-4" high), thin "rib", almost like a blade, running lengthwise along the top side of each cable. This would prevent any snow that did stick from sitting on top of the cable where it could build up to a dangerous point - at most it would stick to the side until its own weight pulled it around the cable and off, while it's still small and light.

Hmmm... anyone have a number for the design engineers?
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:49 PM   #304
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Cambie St. from 3pm to 4pm.

Coast Paper truck cant make it up the incline....some 'N'oob in a volvo gave up and sat there in the centre lane almost gets hit by the Coast Paper truck.

sped up video 4x.

Have to admit, my winter tires saved me from being stuck and spinning out like a whole bunch of others along this strip.

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Old 12-19-2012, 09:02 PM   #305
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i'm surprised you continued to sit there...i'd be so scared of that truck eventually sliding into your bumper
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:02 PM   #306
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Unbelievable. The roads look pretty clear by 4pm. How could they not make it up that mild incline?
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:06 PM   #307
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:08 PM   #308
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Bald tires imo.

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Old 12-19-2012, 09:43 PM   #309
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:06 PM   #310
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WTF IS THIS SHIT

Blame the weather, not the design: Port Mann Bridge planners | News1130
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:11 PM   #311
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"This shit," is what intelligent people refer to as, a logical explanation.

It's a pretty foreign concept to certain groups, namely, car forums and news page comments sections.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:17 PM   #312
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:20 PM   #313
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Found a video of the ice carnage:
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:33 PM   #314
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"This shit," is what intelligent people refer to as, a logical explanation.

It's a pretty foreign concept to certain groups, namely, car forums and news page comments sections.
yea but think about it... rare as it seems, it needs to be thought of and prevented

snow happens every year... snow of this scale happens once a year..
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:49 PM   #315
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Extreme weather? It was just a little snow...not even a whole lot. What happens when it snows again next week? Or next month? Or next year? Yes, we'll keep blaming it on the weather.

Sounds like bureaucratic bullshit to me.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:49 PM   #316
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I blame the design in this case too:

Definitely no fault of the people who built the bridge, it was all wind. [/sarcasm]
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:53 PM   #317
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“We have our engineers on site and we’d like to apologize to all of the drivers for the inconvenience that has been caused today. With public safety a concern, we have instructed our contractor to review the situation, and we’re developing appropriate mitigation in these rare extreme events,” he adds.

Proudfoot is downplaying the design of the bridge as a factor. “The bridge is designed and is absolutely compatible and completely conforming to the Canadian bridge design code for cable stay bridges. The bridge design includes provisions for these types of activities or weather situation. The contractor is reviewing those provisions.”
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:53 PM   #318
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holy crap, since they closed port man coming back from surrey to van using Pattullo was NUTS. It was a total stand still for a while.... I even ran out of gas at one point and was so lucky to have hit a gas station.

Car question, was heading home in my Pathfinder (02) and I stuck it in auto 4x4 to get through all the snow. By the time I got home my A/T oil temp light was showing up but very dimly. I Pulled the tranny oil stick and it was at the HOT part. Is it normal after stressing it that much in the snow? I am sure the 2 hour drive home in snow and ice was stress on the tranny but I'd think a part time 4x4 can handle a couple hours without problems. Hopefully I didn't f up my transmission
The hot level on the dipstick doesn't signify heat or overheating of the transmission or the fluid, rather its the proper level the fluid should be at when the transmission I warmed up vs cold fluid.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:11 PM   #319
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"This shit," is what intelligent people refer to as, a logical explanation.

It's a pretty foreign concept to certain groups, namely, car forums and news page comments sections.
What about skytrain translink malfunctions? Are they supposed to halt at any sign of snow slush or ice? Do other cities that have a similar type of transport have the same problems year in year out? or is that just a logical oversight and not an engineering problem too?
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:12 PM   #320
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yea but think about it... rare as it seems, it needs to be thought of and prevented

snow happens every year... snow of this scale happens once a year..
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Extreme weather? It was just a little snow...not even a whole lot. What happens when it snows again next week? Or next month? Or next year? Yes, we'll keep blaming it on the weather.

Sounds like bureaucratic bullshit to me.
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Mike Proudfoot, says it was related to a very unusual combination of winter conditions.

“This is an extreme weather situation. It is very rare, especially in the Lower Mainland but it does occur and it has had similar effects in other cable stay bridges in other jurisdictions. Snow can accumulate on any structure over roadways, and no bridge is immune to it,” says Proudfoot.
The accumulation did not occur by virtue of snowfall alone.

The article is unclear to create a sensationalist story, but, Mike Proudfoot says, the unusual series of weather conditions created the situation, not the severity of weather conditions as everyone is interpreting it. The amount of snow would have been totally fine if not for everything else that contributed in perfect sequence.

Could any possibility of this type of situation ever occurring been eschewed by a design that more thoroughly accounts for very rare circumstances? Yes, but seriously overbuilding would simply provoke outrage from the public for wasteful spending and exorbitant tolls.

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What about skytrain translink malfunctions? Are they supposed to halt at any sign of snow slush or ice? Do other cities that have a similar type of transport have the same problems year in year out? or is that just a logical oversight and not an engineering problem too?
It's not a logical oversight or an engineering problem. It's a well-established fact that LRT systems are susceptible to snow and ice, but ideal solutions break the bank, and transit projects don't have unlimited funding, so the engineers settle on a system that is great 350 days of the year, and less than ideal the other 15 days. It's no different than roads or airports, people who travel by means of those corridors experience the same delays due to snow and ice.

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Old 12-19-2012, 11:41 PM   #321
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The failure in design is that the cables go over the bridge deck in an angle, thus ice raining onto cars below.

While the Alex Fraser cables may ice up also, the cables are parallel to the bridge deck.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:56 PM   #322
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It's not a logical oversight or an engineering problem. It's a well-established fact that LRT systems are susceptible to snow and ice, but ideal solutions break the bank, and transit projects don't have unlimited funding, so the engineers settle on a system that is great 350 days of the year, and less than ideal the other 15 days. It's no different than roads or airports, people who travel by means of those corridors experience the same delays due to snow and ice.
95% of the time this bridge's design is not causing any problems. The other 5% it costs several million dollars and a few lives. Perhaps that cost spread out over the lifespan of the bridge is cheaper than another Alex Fraser bridge. No doubt there could be a cost benefit there.

But what is clearly evident is there is a major design flaw with the bridge. You don't need to be a P.Eng to put two things together:

A- The bridge's cables stretch over the road, and ice chunks is falling from these cables
B- There is a significant number of accidents related to falling ice chunks, relative to other cable bridge designs.

Now if we put A + B together, and a little bit of common sense, we can see that most likely this bridge design is flawed. If it has webbed feet, a beak, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, etc etc, then unless you want to look like a total smart-ass/troll, call it a duck.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:00 AM   #323
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The failure in design is that the cables go over the bridge deck in an angle, thus ice raining onto cars below.

While the Alex Fraser cables may ice up also, the cables are parallel to the bridge deck.
Yes! This is clearly evident. No need to be a P.Eng to see this.

Now a devils advocate to common sense would say "well how come the wind doesnt just blow the ice over on a straight-cable design onto the roads". Well I would say look at the icicles and ice sheets... they have a very thin and flat physical form. Common sense would dictate anything thin would not be blown around by ambient wind that easily (eg, drop a fishing weight off a tall building, it will land a reasonable distance from where you were standing).
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:19 AM   #324
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95% of the time this bridge's design is not causing any problems. The other 5% it costs several million dollars and a few lives. Perhaps that cost spread out over the lifespan of the bridge is cheaper than another Alex Fraser bridge. No doubt there could be a cost benefit there.

But what is clearly evident is there is a major design flaw with the bridge. You don't need to be a P.Eng to put two things together:

A- The bridge's cables stretch over the road, and ice chunks is falling from these cables
B- There is a significant number of accidents related to falling ice chunks, relative to other cable bridge designs.

Now if we put A + B together, and a little bit of common sense, we can see that most likely this bridge design is flawed. If it has webbed feet, a beak, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, etc etc, then unless you want to look like a total smart-ass/troll, call it a duck.
I'm not a bridge engineer, and I'm assuming you're not either, so it would be presumptuous to refer to the bridge design as flawed. It doesn't take an engineering degree to recognize the decision to extend the cables above the deck was made after cost-benefit analysis, and the design may offer much improved safety during an earthquake or some other incident this audience simply does not have the education to be aware of.

The Leonard P. Zakim Bunker Hill Memorial Bridge in Boston.



Boston is prone to severe snow and ice storms, but the only stories on snow and ice falling from cables causing damage are related to a 2005 storm. That should support the explanation of this incident being caused by an extremely unlikely series of events, not considered worthwhile by the government or public to pre-plan for the possibility of occurring. The deck of this bridge also appears to be very wide, and since the new Port Mann is the widest cable stay bridge in the world, it stands to reason that the layout of cables may be required with an increase in size on that axis.

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Old 12-20-2012, 12:54 AM   #325
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I was wrenching under the car and of the tree fell.
The impact push a buttload of snow under the car scared the shit outta me thought it was Dec 21
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