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Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

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Old 11-27-2012, 11:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by GabAlmighty View Post
Ever tried having a conversation out of the window of a 12/24v Dodge diesel? I HAVE to turn my engine off when I get pulled over haha.
Well now you have legal precedent proving that you are not permitted to shut off your vehicle. "Sorry officer, I have to keep it running so you don't ticket me for not having my lights on"
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:54 PM   #27
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There is no point debating this ad infinitum. The cop wrote you the ticket because he was either in a pissy mood, or didn't like something about you. I will say that there is a good chance he will not defend this ticket in court (or even show up), so you should just dispute it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:54 PM   #28
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Pulling over for things that don't work or do not exist on a vehicle does not constitute points to your file, or even a consideration to suspend license. They're classified as equipment failures.

I'm in the auto industry, and believe me when I say this:

YOU CAN'T SHUT YOUR LIGHTS OFF IF YOU F'ING TRIED. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.

FR-S come with LED tailights and halogen/HID front lights. DRLs usually being run by the halogens.

Only way to disable is to ENGAGE your e-brake, which will sound an alarm in your cabin like mad crazy. No way you wouldn't have known.

I ALWAYS shut my vehicle off when pulled over. Hell, even at a roadblock. I've never gotten hell for it.

Dispute it. It's a bullshit ticket.
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Old 04-25-2014, 10:35 AM   #29
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I just had the court hearing today, officer showed up and we had a thorough discussion about the ticket. In court, the officer ask the judge to drop the ticket because I had demonstrated good will to correct the problem and to prevent it from happening again.

Below is the information I presented to the cop and the justice of the peace.

Vehicle
Make: Scion FR-S
Year: 2013

Situation:
I was idling at the intersection of Granville & Broadway headed southbound waiting for the red light to change. To my right is a yellow cab (Toyota Prius) and to my rear is another yellow cab (Chrysler Caravan) My vehicle was in the left lane, first car position. The officer’s cruiser was on Broadway facing east on the right turn lane. He was stationary during the green signal for the Broadway street.
When the green light signals for Granville, I proceed to cross the intersection. At this moment, the officer proceed to make a right turn to join Granville (Southbound) The yellow cab (Toyota Prius) changes in front of me and proceeded to make a left turn. I signaled and changed lane to the right into the center lane after the cab changed into the left.
At this moment, the police cruiser proceeded to pace directly behind me and as we past W12th intersection he turned on his lights to pull me over. I signal right and pulled over to the right lane and made a safe & complete stop.
The officers came up to my car. There was a young female as well as a young male officer. The male officer stood by to the rear right of my vehicle as the female officer stated they were part of the counter attack program. She asked me whether I had consumed alcohol to which I replied “no”. She then returned to her vehicle along with the male officer. At this moment I shut off the engine and wait.
The officer returned to my car after approximately 10 minutes to serve me a Violation Ticket for Drive without lighter lamps MVA. I kindly let the officer know that my vehicle is switched off to comply with the pull over. He then circled to the front and said “it is not on now” and returned to his vehicle.

Reasoning:


#1 -The ticket has been wrongfully issued. Since making a complete stop to the side of the road with ignition off and parked in a legal area; I was no longer “driving” the vehicle. I was merely operating the vehicle in a stationary manner. Nowhere does it state that pulling over for a police officer forbids shutting the car down. Also, Furthermore, Motor Vehicle Act (Part 3 and Section 124(1)(c)) [1] states that vehicle shall not idle for more than 3 minutes. Out of respect for the bylaw, I shut off the engine and by doing so, complimentary electronics including climate and lighting system are disabled to prevent unnecessary discharge of the battery.


I was indeed driving the vehicle past Broadway with head lamps on. I distinctly recall the dash illumination to be lit which serves as a clear sign that headlamps as well as side markers to be illuminated. The in dash illumination also serve to tell me my speed which I recall being well within the limit of 50km/h. Furthermore, at no point in this entire incident did I ever engage the handbrake while driving or idling at the stop light on Broadway. This is crucial because it is the only way to disable the DRL in the event that the head lamps had failed according to the owner’s manual provided by Toyota/Scion.


According to Toyota/Scion, the 2013 Scion FR-S come equipped standard with H7 Halogen high beams and H7 Halogen low beams with projectors as standard equipment. The H7 halogen high beams also act as DRL (Daytime running lights) It cannot be turned off by using the control stalk on the steering column. The only way the vehicle will disable the DRL / high beams is to engage the parking brake.
Therefore, it is reasonable to say that in order for me to drive without lighted lamps two conditions must be fulfilled. First, I would have to somehow disable the lights and defeat the factory settings by extensive modification. Second, I must be driving with the parking brake on the whole time.
The first explanation is implausible because my 6 months old vehicle at the time is factory stock with no modification with effective intact warranty. Equipment is in perfect condition when I returned for servicing in August. If modification was in place, Toyota/Scion would have voided my warranty due to tampering with the factory settings and factory equipment which is risky and illegal.
Second explanation is also implausible. Driving with parking brake engage is dangerous and can cause serious injury. I was returning from a trip in downtown Vancouver, an area of high population and traffic. I encountered multiple police cruisers along the way and in flow with countless vehicles. If my parking brake was indeed engaged I am sure it would case such a distraction to the people on the road that other users would have made an effort to notify me. Such an hazard would not go unnoticed with other members of the VPD in downtown core area as well. Lastly, the vehicle would have it’s ajar warning blaring long before I even reached Broadway & Granville not to mention the ill effect it would have from endlessly tormenting the unit while moving.

(Page 164-165 of Owners Manual states that as long as engine is running and parking brake is released and any gear other than P is engage, DRL will turn on)

4.01 A person who drives or operates a vehicle on a highway must illuminate the lamps required by this Division

(a) from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise, and

(b) at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavourable atmospheric conditions, objects on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 150 m.

Do you recall the vehicle to my immediate right as you observed me stopped at Broadway? No/Yes
What was the vehicle and color? (Yellow Prius Cab)

Do you recall the vehicle to my immediate rear as you observed me stopped at Broadway? No/Yes
What was the vehicle and color? (Yellow Dodge Caravan Cab)

What was your position in relation to my vehicle before you committed to make a traffic stop?
(Right lane on Broadway before Granville, facing East.)

What was the road surface condition at the time?
(Dark and had precipitated earlier, leading to a moist tarmac on the road. It makes for less than ideal condition for lighting and perception.)

At which point did you attempt to pull me over? No (After passing West 12th)

What was the first thing you stated? (We are from the counter attack program, have you had anything to drink tonight? Where are you coming from? To which I replied No, coming back past downtown from a drive)

At which point during the entire incident did you notice my headlamps failed to stay lit? Before -> Argument 2 After -> Argument 1

Ticket was thrown out by an understanding officer and a reasonable judge.
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Old 04-25-2014, 10:52 AM   #30
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Good to hear. That being said, I see plenty of newer (2010+) cars at night driving without headlights... my guess is that the DRL's are pretty bright already and the dash/console illumination being on all the time prevents people from realizing their headlights aren't on. Whereas in an older car, the dash lights would only illuminate when the headlights are on. Having only driven a 2010+ model car once in my life, I can say that this was pretty confusing for me as well.
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Old 04-25-2014, 10:58 AM   #31
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Good to hear. That being said, I see plenty of newer (2010+) cars at night driving without headlights... my guess is that the DRL's are pretty bright already and the dash/console illumination being on all the time prevents people from realizing their headlights aren't on. Whereas in an older car, the dash lights would only illuminate when the headlights are on. Having only driven a 2010+ model car once in my life, I can say that this was pretty confusing for me as well.
Thats a problem too, those LED DRL are so bright that it has to be dimmed when the Xenon or HID or whatever they use for lowbeams are running at night.
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Old 04-25-2014, 02:00 PM   #32
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How can you say that your lights couldn't have been off due to the DRL's? Being daytime running lights I wouldn't imagine they're valid to use at night.

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What sucks now too is that most new cars have the gauges light up all the time and the only indicator that the headlights are on is a small green icon on the dash.
Back in the old days, if I forgot my headlights, I look at my speedo and I know right away I forgot and will turn it on.
This right here. DRL's should apply to the rears as well since so many people seem to forget to turn their lights on at night.
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Old 04-25-2014, 07:52 PM   #33
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How can you say that your lights couldn't have been off due to the DRL's? Being daytime running lights I wouldn't imagine they're valid to use at night.



This right here. DRL's should apply to the rears as well since so many people seem to forget to turn their lights on at night.
That was what the officer told me as well.

However take a look at this:

4.01 A person who drives or operates a vehicle on a highway must illuminate the lamps required by this Division

(a) from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise, and

(b) at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavourable atmospheric conditions, objects on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 150 m.

Guess there is plenty of room for interpretation.
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Old 04-25-2014, 08:21 PM   #34
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That was what the officer told me as well.

However take a look at this:

4.01 A person who drives or operates a vehicle on a highway must illuminate the lamps required by this Division

(a) from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise, and

(b) at any other time when, due to insufficient light or unfavourable atmospheric conditions, objects on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 150 m.

Guess there is plenty of room for interpretation.
Do you think anyone with any common sense would go around telling people that they are okay to drive around with DRLs because it's technically lit?

Last edited by Spidey; 04-25-2014 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 04-25-2014, 08:35 PM   #35
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Maybe room for argument. But do you seriously think you had the right to go around driving at night with your DRLs on instead of headlights? Do you think anyone with any common sense would go around telling people that they are okay to drive around with DRLs because it's technically lit?
Nope, I agree DRL is for meant for what it is, Day Time. Never said it was okay to drive around with DRL. It is what it is, I had my headlights on therefore I argued for it. The officer perceived me to had inadequate lighting at the time therefore he issued me a ticket. Simple as that. What is legal or can be argued in law is not always best from a moral point of view. Legalism =/= Justice, but that is another can of worm for another day.

We had a fair discussion and he decided to drop my ticket after listening to my reasoning and my side of the story.
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:31 AM   #36
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Did they at least apologize for wasting your time...? The story is so ridiculous, I would have snapped if that happened to me.
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Old 05-02-2014, 09:56 PM   #37
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^^OP has pretty much admitted to driving with DRL rather than proper low-beams. I think the officer was correct to pull him over. Rather than issue the citation, the officer could probably have given him a warning.
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Old 05-02-2014, 11:48 PM   #38
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Pulling over for things that don't work or do not exist on a vehicle does not constitute points to your file, or even a consideration to suspend license. They're classified as equipment failures.

I'm in the auto industry, and believe me when I say this:

YOU CAN'T SHUT YOUR LIGHTS OFF IF YOU F'ING TRIED. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.

FR-S come with LED tailights and halogen/HID front lights. DRLs usually being run by the halogens.

Only way to disable is to ENGAGE your e-brake, which will sound an alarm in your cabin like mad crazy. No way you wouldn't have known.

I ALWAYS shut my vehicle off when pulled over. Hell, even at a roadblock. I've never gotten hell for it.

Dispute it. It's a bullshit ticket.

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Old 05-02-2014, 11:52 PM   #39
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If you run with DRLs, your rear lights are not illuminated, just your DRLs. Even IF your DRLs are as bright at headlights using them does nothing to light the back of your car. If it's dark enough for the lights to be on (previously noted time period) then ALL the required lights must be on, front and back.
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Old 05-03-2014, 12:07 AM   #40
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If you run with DRLs, your rear lights are not illuminated, just your DRLs. Even IF your DRLs are as bright at headlights using them does nothing to light the back of your car. If it's dark enough for the lights to be on (previously noted time period) then ALL the required lights must be on, front and back.
That's why my headlight switch never gets moved to the "off" position. I have my tails and front markers lit whenever I drive.
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Old 05-03-2014, 07:01 AM   #41
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That's why my headlight switch never gets moved to the "off" position. I have my tails and front markers lit whenever I drive.
Once again we actually agree on something. Low beam lights on at all times is SOP in my driving school cars & in my own vehicles....although the headlight switch in my cars does get turned to the off position when the car is parked.
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Old 05-03-2014, 07:45 PM   #42
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^^OP has pretty much admitted to driving with DRL rather than proper low-beams. I think the officer was correct to pull him over. Rather than issue the citation, the officer could probably have given him a warning.
Actually, I never admitted to having DRL on. I was pretty sure I had my lowbeam on hence I fought the ticket and I was pretty confident about. I was just making a reference to the DRL under the lamp section of the MVA and how there could be many ways to interpret it and argue it.

There's two side to it, perhaps I was really driving without my headlamp due to burnt bulb or whatever reasons. Or perhaps he made a mistake or had misunderstanding about my lamps.

Either way, we might never find out since if he was sure I had insufficient light, he would have supported his action in court. Only video evidence could tell for sure. I went back to Chapters and Starbucks and several other stores that night and none of them said their camera could get a glimpse of the road side.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:08 AM   #43
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I find it strange that you would do this much research into the case, but can't tell if you had a burnt bulb.

You were either driving on DRLs (in which case you deserve to get pulled over) if your DRLs do not illuminate the rear of the car and has lower illumination than your regular low-beams.
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Old 05-07-2014, 08:27 AM   #44
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Isn't the issue here not the DRLs but the ticket he received for not having any lights on (after he was stopped and turned off the engine)?
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Old 05-07-2014, 09:46 AM   #45
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I think something to add to this would be, apply the hazard lights to indicate that you are a road hazard to other road users, even if you have a cop behind you with cherries on.
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