Front lip fell off on hwy, installed by Lotus Autobody..

[Limitless]

WARNING: LONG READ

I know it's long and some people don't like reading. I'll try to summarize it:
-Entire lip kit was installed fairly badly by Lotus Autobody
-Front lip was only held on by 1 screw on each side, and 2 pieces of 3m tape 15cm long
-Front lip was on for 1.5 months before scraping it caused the 2 screws to start coming loose
-Brought back to shop to get inspected and fixed, but shop assured me that the lip was fine and that it was not a problem. They told me to come back only when the 2 screws are completely off, then they'll redrill new holes and mount new screws for me.
-Asked the if they could just screw it back in on the spot or fix it, they said no because it will crack the lip (pretty bull..)
-Lip flies off the car on the highway a few weeks later
-Lip brought back to the shop to be inspected, shop says it's not their fault but that it could be the fault of 3m for making bad tape, and the fact that the car was daily driven. But it was mounted 'properly' in their eyes and nothing could have been done to save the lip
-Shop also said it was not their fault because it took 3 months for the lip to fly off the car, and that if it fell off 1-2 days after install then it would have been their fault


Sorry, summary is still kind of long. Full story below



So around August 2012, I bought a lip kit and brought it over to Andrew @ Lotus Autobody to get it painted (just the rear piece) and the whole kit installed because my friend said he had a good experience getting his front lip painted and installed there. Paint was good, but install was terrible. Didn't want to say anything until now but if anyone has considered bringing it to this shop on Olafson and Bridgeport, I'd suggest reconsidering..

The day I went to go pick up my car after the kit had been installed, I noticed things wrong with every single piece.

Starting off with the biggest problem, the front lip.

If you notice very closely, you can see the bumper on the driver side by the fang has been scratched by the lip and the paint has faded. The install was done terribly, it only had two screws on the entire lip and two pieces of double sided tape approx 15cm long per side. That was it. Fitment was not perfect, and there was a very visible gap in between the lip and the bumper on the front edges. The tape was already peeling and there was a good 1-2cm gap on the curve of the bumper and lip, you can see the tape was sagging and completely useless there. The tape was about 1/4 of the lip? The rest of the weight was held on by one screw on each side. I asked Andrew if this was okay, and if he was sure. He said "Yeah of course it's fine". So I leave, and 1.5 months later I went back to the shop. By this time I had scraped the lip pretty badly because of my ride height, and the two screws were half out and also angled now instead of being parallel to the ground like it was before. I bought it to him to ask if he could remount it to make sure it stayed on. He took a look at it, tried to shake the lip, and then he said "No I can't do that because if I thread the screws in it will crack the lip. Wait for the screws to fall out and I will redrill a hole for you to mount a new screw in. I can't do that until it falls out". I asked if he was completely sure that it would hold, and he just said "Yeah of course". I was retarded and believed him. The car was garaged 2 weeks later (no more scraping now because I had gotten used to the height), and taken out just a week ago. Again, no scrapes. Today, on the highway, I was just about to take an exit and going about 120km/h I hear a sudden pop and a HUGE scraping sound. I immediately stop and pull over, walk around my car and find out my front lip had fallen off. It completely fell off and was no longer attached to the car, but because my car was so low it wouldn't clear underneath my bumper so my bumper simply pushed the lip forward and it kept dragging on ground. This is the result of dragging 120km/h -> 0km/h, doesn't look as bad as it does in person in these pictures. The bottom half is separated from the rest of the lip, and is no longer one sturdy piece. It just flaps now..

The other side was sanded down by the concrete but it didn't completely sheer off yet, so it's still in one piece thankfully..

I took it back to Andrew and didn't mention anything, just that it fell off while driving on the highway. He looks at it and says it's not repairable because it's completely carbon fiber. I ask how it fell off and he said he had no idea. Both screws were missing on each side and the tape snapped in two, half on the bumper and half on the lip. He said he had no idea how the screws could have fallen out, and that someone must have tried to steal my front lip. I told him that I had just retorqued my lugs this morning because I recently put on spacers about 100km ago. The screw was still in there. My friend even made a comment a couple of days ago about how stupid the installer was because there was marks on my bumper and the screw holding the lip in was sticking out, though I did correct him saying that the scraping of the lip is what caused the screw to stick out. Even though I wanted to put the screw back in, Andrew specifically told me not to and to just leave it the way it is until it does fall out. However, I just fucking realized that when the screw falls out, so will the lip. Because all it's held on by other than the screws, are two short pieces of 3m tape that was not even really holding on in the first place.

I asked him why it happened, and if it was an install mistake and if it could have been installed better. Andrew replies with "No not at all. If it was my mistake then the rest of your kit should have fallen off too because it was also done by me." This is complete bullshit because for one, the front lip takes most of the wind resistance when driving compared to the sides and rear. The sides at least had 5 or so bolts on each side, and the rear was siliconed to stay on. The front only had tape and 2 screws in total.

I also mentioned that I noticed and pointed out to him that the tape was already peeling the day that it was installed. He then says well that's not his fault, but is 3m's fault for making bad tape or if he used a defective roll. Wtf? In my opinion, it should be the body shop's responsibility for the products they use. If they don't expect the product to hold up the lip properly, why would they even use it? Shouldn't a proper bodyshop expect all of their work to actually last more than 3 months of usage without falling off?

He then says that it might have also fallen off because I drive it everyday. At this point I'm just like No shit I drive my car everyday, it's a freaking car. I told him that he should have expected cars to be driven... and that should not be an issue for a properly installed lip. He then says that if it was his fault, it should have fallen off the day of the install or the day after. But the fact that it took 3 months to fall off means that it was not the installers fault. I just can't believe it at this point. What kind of body shop installs a lip and says "oh well if it lasts more than one day on this car then my job is done"? I told him that I think that is a pretty big problem if a lip can't last on the car for a mere 3 months. Could it not have been mounted better? He again says 3 months of daily driving. He cannot take any responsibility for this at all.

He also asked me more than 3 times where the screws were in the half hour conversation we had. I told him that I don't know, obviously because the lip fucking flew off on the highway. The screws were probably somewhere on the highway. He says that doesn't make sense because screws can't simply fall off. I tell him that I saw the screws on the lip this morning, and he says again that someone probably took it off to try to steal the lip. I drove non stop today before the lip fell off, except to get gas and I was by my car the entire time. I told him this and that no one could have taken it off. He then says well there's no other option except someone trying to steal it. And that he can't say anything else about where the screws could have went because he could not see the screws. In my head I was thinking; well if you could see the fucking screws then my lip would still be on the car..

I understand that it could have been my fault for scraping the lip in the first place causing the screws to start to fall off, but I brought it back to Andrew because of this to make sure that it was okay. I wanted it to be remounted if needed, but he said it was completely fine and that it did not have to be fixed, touched up, or anything. Wait for the screws to fall off before he can redrill a new hole and mount a new screw? Well the screw fell off. So did my lip.

He said he can't repair it, but I showed my friend and he said he could help me. We're now going to try to use fiberglass to fix the hole and put a shit load of resin on there, then sadly have to paint the bottom of the lip black. We're also going to put clear cf resin on the cracks of the lip that are still intact... If anyone else has any opinions on how to add onto the fix please share. The lip was about $550, and being a student working two part time jobs it's really hard for me to just throw it away having it on for less than half a year.

My bumper now that the lip has fallen off..



The bumper was in perfect shape in those areas before the lip install. The lip was installed badly and loose since the very beginning, so it kept moving up and down since there were only 1 bolt on each side, and scraping against my bumper. I pointed this out to Andrew as well, and his response: "Oh that'll polish out". Yeah, so who's going to polish that out for me? -_-



The sideblades;

They were flimsy. Very flimsy. I understand it can be because of the way it was made, but install was an issue here imo... He installed the sideblades with about 4 bolts and nuts that came with the part, and 3-4 of his own screws, which had different heads. He did not use any double sided tape, which made it seem very flimsy in between the bolts. My sideblades always rattles against the car whenever someone's shoe or pants accident brush against it. This may be the case with a lot of these kind of parts, but I'm pretty sure it could have been a lot better if it were taped on so the parts in between the bolts are atleast connected to the car. I brought this up to Andrew and he said it's fine. He could have taped it but he thought the bolts were okay. I was obviously unhappy about it, but after the install of course he did not want to simply unbolt it just to add tape to reinforce it.


The rear lip was also installed pretty badly. There were gaps everywhere and the tape was peeling off already when I went to go pick up the car. I asked Andrew if he could install it any better and he said no. One corner of the lip was COMPLETELY off the car, the tape was there but could not hold it so the corner was just in the air. I showed this to Andrew, and he just pushed it back down and the tape held on for 2 seconds before the edge came flying up. He just shrugs and says "Well, bad fitment. What can you do". I told him to silicone it so it'll stay, there's no way I can accept that kind of install when the lip is already falling off. He said fine, come pick it up again in half an hour. I am also sure that the lip could have been fitted with no gaps, because I've seen a lot worse fitment on the rear lips of my previous Civic and the cheap shop that I brought it to installed it perfectly with only double sided tape and screws, no gaps at all. This one didn't even seem that bad.

Everything was also test fitted prior to install/paint, and Andrew said everything was okay. Clearly looking at it now, it's not.

Sorry for the long post, was just really choked today for almost destroying my $550 front lip... Sharing this in hopes that it won't happen to anyone else reading this. If any of you guys think your lip kit was installed badly and flimsy, take it to the shop right away and have them look at it and fix it. If they refuse to fix it like Lotus, then take it to another shop. Don't be stupid like me. And beware of this shop for lip kit installs. My friend who referred me said that his bumper was also similar to mine because the lip kept rubbing against it due to the install, which shouldn't be happening..

Now my car's looking pretty retarded with almost everything on the exterior done, except the front lip... sigh

[Energy]

I'm having body shop problems right now too so I can kind of relate

You don't mention anywhere in your post or I might have missed it but is the lip kit real?

Seems like pretty shitty service based on your side of the story.

[Limitless]

The front lip and rear spats are by Shine auto, and the sideblades are by Evo R. Both companies are pretty well known replicas, and have fairly good fitment. Sigh, hope you solve your bodyshop problems better than I was able to solve mine.

If anyone can recommend a good body shop please let me know lol, I just picked up my diffuser today and would like to get it installed properly, along with my front lip again

[Araaadi]

That really sucks, and that guy at the body shop sounds like a complete douche. I would of fought what he said and keep fighting that shop until he agreed to either buy me a new lip or fix the current one, then I would take it somewhere else for the installation. Most proper body shops guarantee their work for life.

[Energy]

Yeah seems weird that after 3 months its no longer their responsibility if the lip falls off through no fault of yours but because of their shoddy initial installation.

Just playing devil's advocate here for a moment but you mentioned that

So I leave, and 1.5 months later I went back to the shop. By this time I had scraped the lip pretty badly because of my ride height, and the two screws were half out and also angled now instead of being parallel to the ground like it was before.

The screws might have been installed properly but were moved because of you scraping the lip and that might have caused the lip to fall off eventually?


But then

He took a look at it, tried to shake the lip, and then he said "No I can't do that because if I thread the screws in it will crack the lip. Wait for the screws to fall out and I will redrill a hole for you to mount a new screw in. I can't do that until it falls out". I asked if he was completely sure that it would hold, and he just said "Yeah of course". I was retarded and believed him.

He says wait for it to fall out?!

So he foresaw that it was eventually going to fall off, but was he expecting the tape to hold the lip without the screws?!

[Limitless]

@Araaadi I tried, we talked outside for a good half hour. At the end he kept repeating that he can't do anything because the screws weren't physically here for him to see, and because my car was daily driven. He also said that he can't guarantee any work and that no body shop can because there are conditions that they can't predict.. Which is complete bullshit

Originally Posted by Energy

Yeah seems weird that after 3 months its no longer their responsibility if the lip falls off through no fault of yours but because of their shoddy initial installation.

Just playing devil's advocate here for a moment but you mentioned that

The screws might have been installed properly but were moved because of you scraping the lip and that might have caused the lip to fall off eventually?


But then
He says wait for it to fall out?!

So he foresaw that it was eventually going to fall off, but was he expecting the tape to hold the lip without the screws?!

Yeah, pretty much...

[sdubfid]

99 problems but a lip aint one

just get some friends together fix it up and install it yourself. I know money must be tight as a student driving a 370z so you can save a bundle and know that it's done to your standards.

[Limitless]

Yup going to buy the materials tomorrow and try to fix it, then make more mounting points with more nuts and bolts instead of just screws.. Hopefully that'll work out okay

[AVS_Racing]

well that's the thing with rep kits, they will not be perfect, so the panel gaps between bumper and lip is understandable unless you bolt it like every few inches which is not possible due to it being a CF piece it just doesn't flex as well as a polyurethane piece.

how many holes did your lip come with to bolt up to the bumper with? If there was none you can't really blame the shop.

Drilling or cutting CF is very difficult. Especially if you have to run bolts through them because its a rigid piece and any excess flex will cause that section to crack or even break, especially if you have super low ride height and scrape everywhere.

and the scrapes on your bumper left from the lip, its pretty much in the design of the lip if its mounted like that, a cf lip has no flex and its not supposed to be scraped, obviously there will be movement and rubbing between the parts, where else do you think the flex will go, the weakest section.

if you don't want your lip to fly off, glue it on, bolt it, then mold it onto your bumper

[Limitless]

Originally Posted by AVS_Racing

well that's the thing with rep kits, they will not be perfect, so the panel gaps between bumper and lip is understandable unless you bolt it like every few inches which is not possible due to it being a CF piece it just doesn't flex as well as a polyurethane piece.

Understood, didn't think much about the PU vs fiberglass thing which I should have. I do think that they could have made it stick a bit better though with a heatgun for the tape, the little adhesion promotor thing that comes with the 3m tape and some more time. Not completely blaming them, but this is only for the front lip. The rear was fine once siliconed, but I had to actually ask them to silicone it. If I didn't ask he expected me to leave with it half off the bumper, without silicone.

Originally Posted by AVS_Racing

how many holes did your lip come with to bolt up to the bumper with? If there was none you can't really blame the shop.

Front lip came with no holes. This is one of the reasons why I didn't want to try to install myself, because I was afraid to drill into cf. He only drilled one hole.

Originally Posted by AVS_Racing

Drilling or cutting CF is very difficult. Especially if you have to run bolts through them because its a rigid piece and any excess flex will cause that section to crack or even break, especially if you have super low ride height and scrape everywhere.

and the scrapes on your bumper left from the lip, its pretty much in the design of the lip if its mounted like that, a cf lip has no flex and its not supposed to be scraped, obviously there will be movement and rubbing between the parts, where else do you think the flex will go, the weakest section.

I'm not great on bodywork, so I'm not 100% sure on this; but if mounted securely shouldn't they be little or no movement at all with the lip?

Originally Posted by AVS_Racing

if you don't want your lip to fly off, glue it on, bolt it, then mold it onto your bumper

So you're saying unless I glue it, bolt it on and then mold it a lip will always fly off? Not too sure how molding cf onto a bumper would look..

[AVS_Racing]

that's the thing since your piece is cf and it doesn't flex, it maybe that it doesn't allow him to flex the piece enough to mount it up perfectly with your bumper. the advantages of poly is that you can stretch the piece or bend it with heat, but you can't do that with carbon or else you risk cracking.

if he used self tapping screws its most likely that your piece didn't have any holes or locations close to the factory mounting points or holes, that's why he had to use self taping screws.

[asr]

@limitless Asked the if they could just screw it back in on the spot or fix it,they said no because it will crack the lip (pretty bull..)

Sorry to hear that. It is too late to mention that using screws with bolts or rivets to make your lip stable is the key if you worry about the lip fitting issue.
Oh, btw, check both of your front tires to see if any screws on your tires.

I don't know how ICBC will say for the lip off. Your lip was bolt on the car, will the insurance cover your damage if you have evidence to prove the lip drop off automatically? But I think 120km will be tough for you to debate with ICBC. You can try to call ICBC.


Even though I don't know the size and shape of those 2 screws they used, honestly 2 screws to hold a piece of light weight lip on highway is obviously not that good.

Wet CF is a non-stretch and non-flex material. I am not surprised that your lip fell of under 120KMs per hour because the down force is too much pushing to your loosen lip. Did you suddenly accelerate the car and release the gas pedal right away?

Main reason of falling off is loosen. Even though CF is light piece, 2 screws can not hold the lip even you have a perfect fitment lip. Big washer and bolts is important to let the lip stay on the car.

I understand drilling cf is like a pain in the ass, but they can still do it if using proper tools and ways. Drilling CF parts need duct tapes cover the cf and heating up the cf a bit, using a sharp and new step drill with low RPM. You should be good on that. I have drill and cutting cf by myself couple times. Doing slowly and carefully is also very important. It takes long time and body feel really uncomfortable touching with CF dust.

[asr]

Originally Posted by Limitless

So you're saying unless I glue it, bolt it on and then mold it a lip will always fly off? Not too sure how molding cf onto a bumper would look..

Mold is the best but it takes time and $$$.
If you don't mind with couple holes on the bumper, go with black color rivet. Very secure

[melloman]

When I had someone TRY to break into my Audi and completely fuck up my door handle/key hole.. All work was done by "Donn Dean Collision" in Burnaby. I actually signed papers that guaranteed ALL work for the lifetime of the car. So if the door started to even sag/squeak or anything, I could take it back.

It's a shitty deal that you got fucked Limitless, next time get something in writing? Or just walk away and not deal with these asshats.

[VR6GTI]

Originally Posted by melloman

When I had someone TRY to break into my Audi and completely fuck up my door handle/key hole.. All work was done by "Donn Dean Collision" in Burnaby. I actually signed papers that guaranteed ALL work for the lifetime of the car. So if the door started to even sag/squeak or anything, I could take it back.

It's a shitty deal that you got fucked Limitless, next time get something in writing? Or just walk away and not deal with these asshats.

I'm sure that's not the case, unless they replaced the door and hinges

You can't put all the blame on the shop because you accepted that the work was good when you left the shop and only brought up the problems AFTER you had scraped the lip. Why he would say wait until it falls off is very strange. If he did say that he should split the cost of the lip of with you and have it installed elsewhere. If he is blaming the 3m tape he should be talking to his 3m rep and looking for some kick back from them but i really doubt it was the tapes the fault.

[VR6GTI]

Originally Posted by Energy

I'm having body shop problems right now too so I can kind of relate

What problems are you having?

[Energy]

^ http://www.revscene.net/forums/68071...ml#post8164802

Sorry to thread jack OP. just this one post.

[Phil@rise]

3m tape is fine but not for holding on a lip subject to wind resistance and impact. I've installed dozens of lips over the years and never had one fall off but I dont use 3m tape for the job I use panel adhesive. Its a permanent solution that will lead to paint damage on the bumper underneath but as your pictures prove even a 3m tape and screw job leads to paint damage when its not intended to.

[GabAlmighty]

Shoulda gone to a second body shop for a 2nd opinion and brought that "assesment" back to original shop.

[monkeywrench]

I've dealt with Lotus Autobody via phone once. Their knowledge of work isn't the greatest. I would never bring my own personal car there or recommend anyone to for body work unfortunately. A little harsh but I hope they learn from their mistakes.

[Spidey]

how much did you pay for the install? and was it cash?

[hkRicer]

Wow, your car look so much better with that lip. Good luck with everything though

[Limitless]

Sorry if this post is a bit should messy, posting from my phone on my break at work lol

@avs_racing Thank you for the informative posts, sorry if I came off slightly like an ass, I do appreciate the insight. As for the factory mounting points, the bumper is bare so any lip that gets put on would have to have new holes drilled in. Not too sure where a factory mounting point would be there or if I'm just misunderstanding

@asr Thanks for the information, I'm sure that will come in handy when I try to reinstall it in a few days. I don't think I will go through ICBC with
this, my deductible is $500 and the lip itself was about $550 :/

@melloman Yup lesson learned, will definitely get something in writing next time, though I'm sure even with a receipt they still would not have done anything atleast I would have a few more options

@vr6gti I did bring up the bad fitment and the tape falling off right when I picked up my car after the install. But yes I am to blame too for being stupid and actually believing what he said. Andrew wouldn't agree to anything, not even to repair it enough so I can atleast reuse the lip. Definitely
isnt willing to even split the costs of a new one :/

@gabalmighty Yeah I really should have, lesson learned.

@monkeywrench Andrew was pretty stubborn and kept pushing the blame away from himself, though he didn't push it onto me much. I doubt he thinks he's the cause at all, so I doubt he'll learn..

@blueg2 I paid $150 for the install of the front lip and sides, yes it was a cash deal so he didnt give me a receipt even though I asked for one. You get what you pay for I guess..

@hkricer I agree, thanks man :/
Posted via RS Mobile

[snails]

put simply,if you want it done right,do it yourself, me and my friends do all the work on our cars,and if it had to be done by someone else we are usually there helping with what we can, of course its nice just dropping a car off and picking it up when its done but at the end of the day you will not know the quality till something wrong happens

[VR6GTI]

Originally Posted by Limitless

@vr6gti I did bring up the bad fitment and the tape falling off right when I picked up my car after the install. But yes I am to blame too for being stupid and actually believing what he said. Andrew wouldn't agree to anything, not even to repair it enough so I can atleast reuse the lip. Definitely
isnt willing to even split the costs of a new one :/
Posted via RS Mobile

Oh i see, well then that sucks. Is he the manager? If not i would speak to someone else about the situation.