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Old 12-12-2013, 12:49 AM   #576
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Argh... I don't even know where to start with this. Let's just say the ex-richest guy on Earth, Bill Gates (who's only not the richest guy anymore because of his philanthropy) derives his wealth from "a bunch of numbers".

Seriously though, some people just can't even wrap their head around the fact that EVERYTHING only has value because people give it value. That goes for anything in the world, physical and not physical. Only ~10% of all of the world's "money" is real, the rest is all virtual, part of computer systems. Millionaires are made daily who write software or do things like making YouTube videos. Why is it so hard to believe that a virtual currency like Bitcoins right now has a value over your narrow minded expectations? While being backed by one government is a great to value currency, what do you have against a currency which derives it's value from people worldwide? It may not be Bitcoins... It may not be litecoins. But it's movements like this that helps to spearhead the movement of true globalization and shaping a better global economy.
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Pretty sure Bill Gates is still the richest guy on earth at this point and time.
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Old 12-12-2013, 01:12 AM   #577
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Exactly... but currencies are at least government backed.

When someone come up with fake bills, gov. would take care of it. Let's say someday someone manages to crack BTC somehow, what would happen? BTC becomes a bunch of numbers and that's it.
You keep bashing bitcoin from a security standpoint. Hey I can't predict the future but as of this moment it's impossible to 'crack BTC' and a lot of people, some invested tens of thousands of dollars, will also argue that it's pretty damn safe.
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:18 PM   #578
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Might be a good time to buy LTC, as the CEO of BTCChina strongly hinted that they'll begin carrying it
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:21 PM   #579
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I myself am not totally sold on bitcoin but am looking at it in a good light

Here is the otherside of the equation anyways:
What makes anyone think the Canadian dollar is secure as well?
For instance, money in the bank is a NUMBER on a machine. Money that a country has is a number on a machine. Cash flow is a number on a machine. Sure there is a pile of money somewhere in a reserve, and this money pile is to be TRUSTED by other people when it is reported that a bank may hold X amount of physical dollars. Numerous times we have been shown that this trust by a government or any other body with conflicting interest...that this trust cannot be absolutely maintained.

--and expanding on this reserve concept: these physical bills have no intrinstic value. it is just a value that is given to it by a body of people. So lets think about it, we have a monetary system that is backed by items that have a man made value assigned to them...which is to justify the value of the currency itself. Circular

When the US does Quantitative easing, thats just playing with a bunch of numbers. And these numbers are later then translated into a currency that is valued to a certain degree internationally. You can argue bitcoin is the same

Numbers in the bank can be hacked as well as with any other currency. Maybe Bitcoin is more secure from a technological and algorithmic standpoint. Difference is, is that the government backs this up with forces of millitary might

But on the other hand: time and time again, we see people overtake governments not by pure military strength or technological advantage, but by mass numbers of people. revolution

And that same analogy can be applied to crypto currencies.
which is done by distributed computing...amazing
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:55 PM   #580
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You keep bashing bitcoin from a security standpoint. Hey I can't predict the future but as of this moment it's impossible to 'crack BTC' and a lot of people, some invested tens of thousands of dollars, will also argue that it's pretty damn safe.
It's not cracked... but it's definitely not safe considering all the heists that have been pulled off.

I bash on BTC's security because BTC supporters tout it as a major feature. However, it has been proven time after time (there has been what? 4~5 different heists in 2013 alone ranging anywhere from 10s of 1000 to hundred of millions) that it's no more secure than anything else due to the inherited limitation of BTC; itself has not been cracked, but saving it safely that's both convenient and safe has proven difficult.

BTC's original idea is freedom. A monetary instrument free of control and record. Nevertheless, the idea itself is plagued with flaws if one has taken any econ history class. Monetary instrument needs certain control in order to establish stability and value. It has always been the case as far as history of MI go (bones, precious metals, furs, fiat money... etc) With no control, all its value are built upon speculation. And if past experience is any indication, any MI with little control end up being replaced by something WITH control.

Now, BTC can solve the control problem if it can establish certain level of real value. But as the way it is now... it has little to none.

The only value it has is being able to hide money under the government radar. But this is not stopping government from seizing BTC directly (as in Silkroad). And you know the best part? Since it's all money people don't want government to know and there is no official (at government level at least) way to peg value on BTC, any BTC seized by government is as good as gone. With real money, at least one can try to claim it back in the original amount if it was obtained legally.

I'm done discussing BTC. I guess it's difference in opinion. So, let's just agree to disagree.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:17 PM   #581
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I guess it's difference in opinion.
No, it's not. It's a case of you arguing about something you know nothing about, and are unwilling to learn.. so your arguments have nothing to stand on.

Basically it's like arguing with someone who has taken a 101 course in something, and they think they know everything all of a sudden. I have seen it time and time again, and this is just another case.

So I agree, you should just quit unless you're willing to make valid arguments after learning a bit more about it.

Edit, what is a matter of opinion is whether it will be adopted as a major currency. That is something you can argue about, since it's all speculation at this point. But if you are basing your opinion on that matter on 100% fallacy , you don't have much to say.
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Old 12-12-2013, 08:32 PM   #582
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how can you use those heists as the backing to prove its "not safe"

thats like saying I put my banking info on some site because i wanted to buy grenades and they ended up stealing my info, wow couldnt predict that happening?
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:10 PM   #583
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No, it's not. It's a case of you arguing about something you know nothing about, and are unwilling to learn.. so your arguments have nothing to stand on.
LOL. More like you are trying to make an argument when the only ground you can hold is because BTC is still too new to even have a point.

I came into the thread to talk about 2 issues with BTC if one wants to treat it as investment:

Safety and value


Safety: BTC itself is not cracked. It's not promised it never will. And it's vulnerable in other aspects due to its nature. Moreover, when it has any problem, there is no one to back it up and since BTC's current legal status is vague at best, it is not treated the same on a legal level as other investment instruments. Thus, there is a ridiculous amount of risk for no apparent benefit (at least not at $1000/BTC level) Sadly, from an accounting perspective, the same could not be said. (discussed in value)

Value: BTC in itself has little to no value. You can spin all you want. But all the processing power poured into BTC is simply to maintain BTC itself from breaking. It can hardly be used for anything else. There is no real value created in the process except hiding from the govs or the taxmen. But if BTC gets mainstream enough, you can bet the gov will find a way to get their hands on it. The only reason it's not doing yet is because there isn't enough financial incentive and it's still too new to put through laws. Also, unless BTC gets a way to convert into other currencies safe and totally anonymous, whatever income you realize from BTC is still subject to tax. If you choose not to declare anything (hence breaking the law), trust me, there are easier/safer ways to make a buck without gov knowing.

By considering these two aspects, it makes BTC, as a form of investment, very high in risk. Sure one could simply sit back and only farm BTC and not involve into any risky stuff, last time I checked, unless you spend some serious dough on highly specialized rigs, the expense (both financial and time) per coin no longer make much sense. And people only continue doing it because they believe BTC's value will go up into stratosphere.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:12 PM   #584
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how can you use those heists as the backing to prove its "not safe"

thats like saying I put my banking info on some site because i wanted to buy grenades and they ended up stealing my info, wow couldnt predict that happening?
Because those heists wouldn't have happened if BTC wasn't in place and transaction had to do in the old fashion way?

BTC simply facilitated a way for those who wants to carry out a heist. Heck, they probably laugh hard at bank robbers for doing so much work for so little return.
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Old 12-12-2013, 09:57 PM   #585
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the heists also wouldnt have happened if they hadnt had deposited their BTC into a third party..

the equivalent would be leaving your wallet at the bus stop
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:08 PM   #586
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It's useless trying to argue with him...
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:49 PM   #587
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the heists also wouldnt have happened if they hadnt had deposited their BTC into a third party..

the equivalent would be leaving your wallet at the bus stop
I'm just highlighting the potential risk. Since no one really controls/manages the BTC, what if the owner of a major trade/deposit site decides to take all BTC it got and flee? Remember, there is no way of tracing a BTC and most gov don't recognize BTC. So, if that ever happens... bye bye all your BTC and you got no where to file a claim.

Basically, the "bank" you deposit BTC can go rogue overnight. However trustful it is. But hey, since there is no law against it, why not if given enough incentive.
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:52 PM   #588
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I'm just highlighting the potential risk. Since no one really controls/manages the gold, what if the owner of a major trade/deposit site decides to take all gold it got and flee? Remember, there is no way of tracing a gold and most gov don't recognize gold. So, if that ever happens... bye bye all your gold and you got no where to file a claim.

Basically, the "bank" you deposit gold can go rogue overnight. However trustful it is. But hey, since there is no law against it, why not if given enough incentive.
You are finally starting to get it.

Bitcoin is decentralized. Like any other "thing". What you do with that "thing" is up to you. Gold isn't going to protect itself from being stolen, and neither is Bitcoin. The government isn't controlling where your gold sits - you can choose to do whatever you want to store it. Keep it in a bank vault, hide it under your bed, bury it in the back yard. You can do all of that stuff with Bitcoin as well. As long as nobody gets your private key, there is literally nothing they can do with it. If you print the key on a piece of paper and put it in a safety deposit box, it's as safe as anything else you put in there.

People are saying Bitcoin is new, and it is in ways. But in other ways it's going back to the old days, where currency was something you held, and traded in exchange for something, with someone who can then do something with that currency. A long time ago, this was gold and other precious metals. Because it was hard to get, lasted long, and was easy to trade in small amounts by hand.

Governments used to base their money on gold, but now they basically replaced it with a big Ponzi scheme. If people want to go back, they can. But going back to gold is obviously not feasible in this day and age. You can't b uy something on amazon by promising to mail them some gold. So Bitcoin is the alternative to that. If people want to go back. Hopefully there is enough awareness after the shit banks put everyone through in the last several years. We'll see if that happens.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:33 PM   #589
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LOL. More like you are trying to make an argument when the only ground you can hold is because BTC is still too new to even have a point.

I came into the thread to talk about 2 issues with BTC if one wants to treat it as investment:

Safety and value


Safety: BTC itself is not cracked. It's not promised it never will. And it's vulnerable in other aspects due to its nature. Moreover, when it has any problem, there is no one to back it up and since BTC's current legal status is vague at best, it is not treated the same on a legal level as other investment instruments. Thus, there is a ridiculous amount of risk for no apparent benefit (at least not at $1000/BTC level) Sadly, from an accounting perspective, the same could not be said. (discussed in value)

Value: BTC in itself has little to no value. You can spin all you want. But all the processing power poured into BTC is simply to maintain BTC itself from breaking. It can hardly be used for anything else. There is no real value created in the process except hiding from the govs or the taxmen. But if BTC gets mainstream enough, you can bet the gov will find a way to get their hands on it. The only reason it's not doing yet is because there isn't enough financial incentive and it's still too new to put through laws. Also, unless BTC gets a way to convert into other currencies safe and totally anonymous, whatever income you realize from BTC is still subject to tax. If you choose not to declare anything (hence breaking the law), trust me, there are easier/safer ways to make a buck without gov knowing.

By considering these two aspects, it makes BTC, as a form of investment, very high in risk. Sure one could simply sit back and only farm BTC and not involve into any risky stuff, last time I checked, unless you spend some serious dough on highly specialized rigs, the expense (both financial and time) per coin no longer make much sense. And people only continue doing it because they believe BTC's value will go up into stratosphere.


You are thinking about this the wrong way.

Your first point mentioned safety. I invite you to think of Bitcoins as cash. Sure, your Bitcoins can get "heisted" like you said. But your house can get broken into, you can get robbed, your wallet can get stolen while you are walking down the street. Your computer can get hacked, and your Bitcoin wallet can get stolen and your money is gone forever. But how is that different from the above scenarios I mentioned? Who's going to give you back your money if you had a lot of cash and it gets stolen? Nobody. You are in charge of protecting your assets, nobody else.

You say there is a ridiculous amount of risk for no apparent benefit. Honestly, I don't want to be attacking you or sound rude, but its comments like this that make you sound both ignorant and stupid. Try telling the people that started watching BTC when it was merely 1:30cents. Tell that to the neckbeard who recently bought a lambo in CA with only bitcoins. No one is denying that this is a high risk high reward market right now, but please don't tell the speculators there is no "apparent" benefit. Even the recent crash down to 600$. Imagine investing all your money and having it hovering at around 850$ per coin right now. How is this any different than investing in penny stocks, granting the fact that you can convert your coins back to fiat right away? You don't know how much higher or lower BTC's are going to go. Hundreds of millions have been made, millions have been lost. Same as any other financial market.

How does BTC not have value? It's trading currently at 1:850$ USD right now. THAT is it's fucking value. How is that any different than Uncle Sam saying 1 USD is worth 1 bottle of Coca Cola? I don't know how many more paragraphs or articles we can show you where we explain in detail where everything in this world derives its value from what people decide it's worth. Does a printing press printing a 100 CAD bill give it value? Does the US releasing more "US Dollars into the wild" give it value?...

Honestly, the whole mining argument is completely moot. The reason why mining is even required at this point is to get people interested and to provide a cost:benefit for those that do invest early on in coins. Like I said, your still thinking about this the wrong way. The whole reason is to get people interested in a global currency where it is not governed or manipulated by a central government. It is also an attempt to spur technological advancements as quickly as possible in order to try to keep up with making mining profitable. As long as people believe in bitcoins, computer technology will attempt to advance as quickly as possible in order to continue to make mining profitable. Isn't this a good thing?. Whoever created this crypto-currency had a vision to try to provide the global community with an alternative way to make transactions.

No one is denying that bitcoins, NOW (as opposed to 2-3 years ago) is a high risk and high reward investment if you are trying to make money. The question is, why do people like you have such a huge problem with a new form of investment and a currency that is backed by the people, for the people in a worldwide economy?
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:40 PM   #590
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Random thought:

You're going about the security argument in a wrong way. The way bitcoin heists occur can also happen with banks and money. Bitcoin is safer in that it can't be counterfeited (at this point). Can't say the same about money.
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Old 12-13-2013, 12:33 AM   #591
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I like bitcoins and own a few, but when reading forums and reddit, sometimes I feel half the users are as crazy as CiC.
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Old 12-13-2013, 12:54 AM   #592
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I like bitcoins and own a few, but when reading forums and reddit, sometimes I feel half the users are as crazy as CiC.
I'm not sure who you're referring to, as nobody has really said anyhting that is completely out there. Other than 'worst case scenario' speculation for the future but nobody banks on that.

If you don't think the way finance works is fucked right now, I don't know what I could say to convince you... Maybe start with watching Inside Job?
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Old 12-13-2013, 01:19 AM   #593
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I'm referring to the people who talk as if the end of the world is coming, the USD will be worth nothing and the only thing in the future will be Bitcoins. This is similar to the gold and Silver forums I read.

I think bitcoins are a great idea, and I am a speculator of how they will be more intrical in our society and play a big part in commerce, but I don't think it will ever be the 'main' currency. Maybe the USD will lose it's value, maybe another currency (most likely a basket of global currencies) will be more dominant, but I don't see that being Bitcoins. I see bitcoins more of a way to ease international trade.

Like others have said, it's a commodity and I believe it will stay at that. You will always need to transfer Bitcoin into a different currency if you want to gain any profit.

Also, as a consumer, I still don't see how Bitcoins benefit me at the momment. Yes, I can buy a burger or a coffee with bitcoins, but to buy bitcoins it's still a hassle and there are transaction fees etc. Why would I not want to use my credit card to purchase something when I have zero fees, buyers protection, extended warranty. Bitcoins help the merchants and what they need to do is offer discounts for Bitcoin users to help promote bitcoins.

I do hope Bitcoins take off and be stronger, but again, I am also realistic.
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:08 AM   #594
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I'm referring to the people who talk as if the end of the world is coming, the USD will be worth nothing and the only thing in the future will be Bitcoins. This is similar to the gold and Silver forums I read.

I think bitcoins are a great idea, and I am a speculator of how they will be more intrical in our society and play a big part in commerce, but I don't think it will ever be the 'main' currency. Maybe the USD will lose it's value, maybe another currency (most likely a basket of global currencies) will be more dominant, but I don't see that being Bitcoins. I see bitcoins more of a way to ease international trade.

Like others have said, it's a commodity and I believe it will stay at that. You will always need to transfer Bitcoin into a different currency if you want to gain any profit.

Also, as a consumer, I still don't see how Bitcoins benefit me at the momment. Yes, I can buy a burger or a coffee with bitcoins, but to buy bitcoins it's still a hassle and there are transaction fees etc. Why would I not want to use my credit card to purchase something when I have zero fees, buyers protection, extended warranty. Bitcoins help the merchants and what they need to do is offer discounts for Bitcoin users to help promote bitcoins.

I do hope Bitcoins take off and be stronger, but again, I am also realistic.
Ah, well if people like CiC start talking about Bitcoin, that doesn't make them "bitcoin people". They are nutjobs to begin with, they are just attaching themselves to it since it appeals to their nutjob nature

The thing about a fiat currency being the standard is that if that government goes down, the standard goes down. USA seems to be on the brink of that happening, the Euro already did, Japan already did, and China is a giant bubble waiting to burst. There needs to be something to take its place...

I've been a bitcoin consumer quite a few times.. I buy hosting with it, domains, I bet with it.. sometimes anonymously, sometimes not. I actually am using it less because who knows.. if the end value of 1 BTC is like $5000, then that $10 domain I bought just cost me like $250

I definitely prefer it to using credit cards though... I'd use Paypal before I'd use credit cards.. hell I'd walk to the store and pay cash before using credit cards
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:39 AM   #595
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Wow, some users are really letting it get to their head. Bitcoin fever?

Let us be real here for a moment. As of right now, if the US govt wants to knock down BTC, it'd be fairly easy. BTC is still in it's infancy and there are a lot of vulnerabilities and teething issues it needs to get over.
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Old 12-13-2013, 04:14 PM   #596
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The US govnt. has already said they see no problem with BTC. It's the banks that are outraged, and the media is controlled by the banks/wealthy. I don't take anything I ready about BTC on mainstream media as truth. Just propaganda.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:59 AM   #597
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:23 AM   #598
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:27 AM   #599
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Ugh I wish I had bought bitcoins last year. Too late now ;_;
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Old 12-16-2013, 01:24 PM   #600
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Whats up with the market today? all reds.
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