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Old 04-09-2013, 04:28 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by twdm View Post
I find it kind of funny that 50-60 year olds are the IT support staff though. They're probably replacing them so people who actually know how to use anything other than DOS are working there.

most banks run as400 systems. not like they teach as400 in bcit. most people working on as400, iseries type systems are 50+


as far as RBC goes,

its correct . most big business do outsourcing. this is not different. these workers are here for knowledge transfer, once that's done. IT systems will be managed from India.

and fyi to others.
my bro.s wife worked as a cooperate lawyer in India (company based out of Boston). her law office mostly dealt with outsourcing, making outsourcing agreements etc.. she said, not only IT. but bookkeeping /accounting /medical R&D/ and also alot of legal documentation is being outsourced to India. Most Americans are against outsourcing, and it was also a campaign topic for Obama. In canada we haven't had anything outsourced other than IT, but wait till other jobs are lost to the developing world.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:01 PM   #77
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^ yeah no kidding.

A lot of Canadian manufactures build factories in China, hire Chinese workers instead of Canadians to save cost. Those manufactures don't get accused for not hiring Canadians, or not doing business in Canada.
Different scenario,

They are bringing these people from overseas on temp permits to replace these Canadians. Not setting up a building/place in India.
I think it hits Canadians closer to home. When does the buck stop? How much more Foreign temp permits do we issue? Esp when BC lost jobs last month.

Especially when they start making education requirements or the transition a lot easier, especially from the Phillipines (health care workers).

On a side note: That Royal Bank HR Chick did not do a good interview. Better move would have been to issue a memo.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:15 PM   #78
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I feel for these workers, but loyalty is cheap these days. You have to stay ahead of the curve, make yourself valuable, and continue to develop new skills.

People should buy RBC stock. I hate to say it, but the majority of people closing accounts at RBC probably don't bring value to the company anyway. If you have mortgages and maybe a million in liquid, then sure, moving your business elsewhere may raise some eyebrows. After working at a major bank, I learned that they don't give two shits about the average person with some GICs, mutual funds, and maybe 50 grand in liquid.
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I hear what you're saying. But not everyone has the means (money) or capacity (education/intelligence) to buy RBC stock.

The average joe is slowing starting to realize that theres not enough jobs out there. Even if you have a business/IT/engineering degree, you're facing an uphill battle in terms of jobs, and they feel its unfair, rightly or wrongly.

The people that came from affluent families dont have to worry about it as much as the people from poorer familes. Things are different now than they were 10 years ago, and much different than it was 20-30 years ago.

And worst is more and more people are starting to see that these corporations are receiving all these tax cuts and tax breaks, and are reporting record profits, but they aren't hiring any more workers, they are in fact doing the opposite in order to further cut costs.

It's similar to that line in Fight Club that edward nortons character says. . .. people are starting to get pissed off.

"We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." except replace this with the saying that tax cuts are good for employees as it will hire more jobs, and there's a huge labour shortage. and we need more foreign employees to "grow" our economy.

bottom line, populations increasing + jobs decreasing = trouble ahead.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:25 PM   #79
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Different scenario,

They are bringing these people from overseas on temp permits to replace these Canadians. Not setting up a building/place in India.
I think it hits Canadians closer to home. When does the buck stop? How much more Foreign temp permits do we issue? Esp when BC lost jobs last month.

Especially when they start making education requirements or the transition a lot easier, especially from the Phillipines (health care workers).

On a side note: That Royal Bank HR Chick did not do a good interview. Better move would have been to issue a memo.
It's been happening for years. But it's always been your strawberry farmers, or janitors or the job "nobody" wanted to do.

But now that it's hitting the white collar jobs,

people are starting to think, ohh shiet, this can happen to me, and this is affecting me directly, people will get pissed.
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Old 04-11-2013, 02:58 PM   #80
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seems like CEO of RBC has finally "apologized"

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Royal Bank of Canada chief executive officer Gordon Nixon has issued an open letter apologizing to employees for a controversy involving the bank’s use of outsourcing.

In a statement titled “An open letter to Canadians,” the bank’s CEO said the bank is in compliance with regulations involving temporary workers, but should have handled the situation better.

MORE RELATED TO THIS STORY

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Video: RBC issues open letter of apology to employees

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Where the foreign workers come from and where they go
“I want to apologize to the employees affected by this outsourcing arrangement as we should have been more sensitive and helpful to them,” Mr. Nixon said in the letter.

“While we are compliant with the regulations, the debate has been about something else. The question for many people is not about doing only what the rules require – it’s about doing what employees, clients, shareholders and Canadians expect of RBC. And that’s something we take very much to heart.”

The statement comes after the bank faced accusations from an employee over the weekend that RBC was using temporary foreign workers to displace work being done by its own information technology staff. The controversy stems from RBC’s plans to outsource IT work done for its Dexia investor service to iGate Corp., a U.S.-based company that operates primarily in India.

The federal government is now investigating whether there are discrepancies in the paperwork iGate filed with the federal temporary workers program. In order to comply with the program, iGate must show that the work it needed done could not be filled by the local employee base.

About 45 RBC employees are affected in the outsourcing, and Mr. Nixon said in the open letter that “all will be offered comparable job opportunities within the bank.”

The bank also pledged to review its supplier arrangements and policies to ensure that companies such as iGate are compliant with regulations. RBC said it also has no plans to move any of its call centres in the U.S. or Canada offshore. The bank also expects to announce a “new initiative aimed at helping young people gain an important first work experience in our company,” the letter said.

“Despite our best efforts, we don’t always meet everyone’s expectations, and when we get it wrong you are quick to tell us. You have my assurance that I’m listening,” Mr. Nixon added.

Outsourcing is common among the banking community, particularly with regard to IT workers. All of Canada’s major banks have told The Globe and Mail they have used the temporary foreign worker program to add staff when needed, mostly in the IT field. Such staff are also used when divisions are shifted outside the banks and moved offshore.

Though RBC has acknowledged it is outsourcing the Dexia technology functions in order to cut costs, Mr. Nixon said RBC is a net provider of new jobs in Canada. The bank employs 57,000 people.

In addition to granting numerous media interviews, Mr. Nixon has been personally reaching out to some of his harshest critics.

Shortly after the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada – a federal union of public servants – issued a letter Wednesday calling on its 56,000 members and their families to stop banking with RBC, Mr. Nixon personally e-mailed the union president to request a conversation.

Union president Gary Corbett said that conversation took place Thursday afternoon and lasted about 20 minutes.

“It seems to me that the Royal Bank is stepping up to do the right thing,” Mr. Corbett told The Globe and Mail. The union president said he and his colleagues have not yet decided whether Mr. Nixon’s call and public letter are enough for the union to change its position. Mr. Corbett said he will likely “adjust” the union’s statement on RBC.

“It was a good conversation,” he said, adding that Mr. Nixon told him he felt RBC’s actions had been misrepresented.
Royal Bank apologizes to employees over outsourcing move - The Globe and Mail
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:13 PM   #81
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You're in shit now RBC.
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Old 04-11-2013, 03:55 PM   #82
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Rebuttal/another perspective. Discuss.

Column: Outsourcing protesters are out-of-touch
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:25 PM   #83
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I know alot of people hoping the governement dont do shit. You think its just RBC? Go to any chain/gas station in any rural area of BC or Alberta and count the filipinos.

Essentially my friends say that they would rather hire a filipino on a work permit because they will work any hours, at a respectable wage (it costs more to hire an oversea worker) but they will never call in sick or never steal etc.

Canadian work ethic sucks.
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:19 PM   #84
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Maybe if you're hanging around with deadbeats with McJobs, Canadian work ethic is pretty damn good.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:24 PM   #85
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Unions threatening to pull investments managed by RBC | News1130

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VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) – There’s a big threat coming from some of BC’s big union pension plans.

They’re planning to pull over $1 billion of investments and funds managed by RBC in Vancouver because of the outsourcing controversy

Lee Loftus with the BC Insulators Union says this could happen if the Royal Bank does not reverse its use of temporary foreign workers

“This is pension money that’s invested into the Canadian economy in the longer term. Particularly, the training of temporary foreign workers to replace Canadians is extremely offensive to the labour movement and to our membership,” he says.

Loftus says when Canadians are pulling their own personal RBC accounts and canceling credit cards, they want to do their part too and stick up for keeping jobs in our own country.

“If they’re unable to reverse their decision, we will then take that $1 billion of assets and move it to other financial institutions that will support keeping that money with Canadian workers and Canadian investments,” he explains.

The CEO of Royal Bank has issued a public apology, saying the bank is reviewing its supplier arrangements and policies to balance its desire to be a successful business and a leading corporate citizen.

Gord Nixon also says the 45 employees in Toronto who lost their jobs to foreign workers will be offered comparable opportunities at the bank.

In the meantime, Prime Minister Stephen Harper says he is concerned about the growing use of temporary foreign workers in Canada.

Harper says the reality is that some employers need to bring in outside workers to fill jobs.

But he says foreign workers should only be filling spots temporarily in fields where there are “absolute and acute” labour shortages.

Harper says reforms are being drafted to ensure the program is being used only for that purpose.

In 2012, there were more than 213,000 foreign workers in Canada and another 160,000 immigrants who arrived under the federal skilled worker program.

The rapid growth of the temporary foreign worker program has raised concerns that Canadian companies are filling job vacancies with cheaper workers from overseas rather than actively finding Canadians to fill the jobs.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:40 PM   #86
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CEO comes with outsourcing plan to save cost
Outsourcing problems get swept under rug
Numbers come in for a couple quarters, looks great
CEO reaps bonuses
Problems of the outsourcing are starting to accumulate and crawls out from under the rug
Shareholders unhappy
CEO bids farewell with large bonuses and severance in hand
New CEO appointed to clean up mess

rinse and repeat
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:19 AM   #87
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^@2.07 billion quarterly profit (~23 million/day), the CEO's yearly salary was paid in less than a half of a working day. Just thought that was interesting and in the big scheme of things, not that much at all.
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:19 AM   #88
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^still small change compared to the big bankers.... Still can't believe Steve Cohen gets charged 600million for inside trading then buys a damaged Picasso for 155million!
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Old 04-12-2013, 09:27 AM   #89
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Full story in the link below


Ex-RBC foreign workers say contractor controlled their lives - British Columbia - CBC News

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Two IT contractors from India who worked at RBC in Toronto said their lives were tightly controlled by their multinational employer, while they took over the jobs of Canadian bank workers.

"They have a rotation policy, and they make sure you don’t get settled here," said one of the ex-iGATE employees. “You are always threatened that at any time you will be sent back [to India]."

The men, who now have permanent resident status in Canada and new jobs, spoke to the CBC's Go Public under the condition they would not be identified. Go Public first broke the story Saturday of dozens of employees at RBC who were losing their jobs to temporary foreign workers.

iGATE's operations are mainly in India. The company billed RBC more than $100 million for services in 2012.

The men said they were among a group of approximately 200 Indian nationals shuttled back and forth between Canada and India, while doing work for Canada’s largest bank between 2008 and 2012.

“That threat is always there, so in a way you will not be able to even concentrate on your work."

One of the workers said, at one point, he and his family were forced to get on a plane to India with little notice, right after his wife had given birth.

"That manager was very blunt and rude, he didn't even give me much time to explain," he said.

The workers said Canadian bank employees lost their jobs in the process and they felt badly about that.
Didn't come to take jobs

“We used to hear about people getting sacked. We as persons didn't come to snatch anybody's job,” said one of the men. “I can put myself in their shoes. It is like someone coming into your home and taking over.”

They both said their employer brought them to Canada under the controversial Temporary Foreign Worker Program.

iGATE told Go Public it rotates its “global workforce” through Canada using that program and another type of work visa called intra company transfers, which it can do as it has Canadian sales offices.

“I was travelling with my family,” said one of the men, whose two children were born in Canada. “It was a dream to come here.”

However, several immigration lawyers told Go Public it is against federal rules for foreign workers to come in en masse and take Canadian jobs, no matter what type of visa they have.

"There are legions of Canadians qualified, willing and available for work if they knew the jobs existed. There’s something that needs to be dramatically overhauled here nationally," said Richard Kurland, an immigration lawyer from Vancouver.

He and two colleagues are now preparing to launch a class-action lawsuit on behalf of affected Canadian bank workers.

The iGATE workers’ stories support what dozens of bank employees and contractors have told Go Public, that foreign contractors from India are now cycling through all the major banks, for months or years at a time, displacing more and more IT staffers and local contractors.

So who really wins at this point? Canadians? The skilled temporary foreign workers? shareholders in the long run?



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Old 04-12-2013, 09:55 AM   #90
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-wanna discuss this topic from another point of view.

As federal staff, I work for the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.

If companies like RBC and more, recently, HD Mining with the coal miners fiasco, are looking at ways to exploit this program to improve their bottom, you can bet the feds would do a detailed investigation about these hiring practices.

Perhaps there needs to be revisions to the program requirements to prevent Canadian companies from using these questionable hiring practices.

-not defending the government just because I'm staff. You can point the finger at the corporations and the feds on this RBC/I-gate news item.

There's more than one party at fault here. First, the corporations like RBC for hiring foreign workers instead of Canadians.

Second, the government program requirements for hiring foreign workers which do not filter out the employers who do not have legitimate reasons to hire foreign workers (staff shortage, lack of Canadians who have the skills and experience needed for the job).
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Old 04-12-2013, 11:54 AM   #91
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Discuss? Was in the paper today in the metro.

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Old 04-12-2013, 11:55 AM   #92
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:14 PM   #93
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my neck hurts
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:23 PM   #94
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So we didn't break the word of the rules but we totally broke the spirit. Uhm. So. Yeah. We're trying to be a bit less douchey about how we prop up our bottom line. Don't close your accounts plzkthxbai?
That's what I got out of that.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:55 PM   #95
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^@2.07 billion quarterly profit (~23 million/day), the CEO's yearly salary was paid in less than a half of a working day. Just thought that was interesting and in the big scheme of things, not that much at all.
That's not the point of the post, the problem is CEO's decisions are operated by greed, and rarely ever for the welfare of the company.
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:21 AM   #96
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That's not the point of the post, the problem is CEO's decisions are operated by greed, and rarely ever for the welfare of the company.
Yeah I know I just wanted to throw that fact in cause it was interesting to me and might be for others.

What you just described sounds like how our political system currently works
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:38 AM   #97
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The problem of course is the fact that a CEO's job is legally to be greedy; "to look out for the best interests of the shareholders". Which is to say, "To fuck everyone over to the best of one's abilities while not devaluing the company's stock and simultaneously increasing profits"

It makes me sad that we can accept that as part and parcel of life these days.
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Old 04-14-2013, 04:14 AM   #98
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RBC's CEO is only apologizing (sorta... he actually addressed to the employees) because of public pressure. When the spotlights turn away, the same practice would continue. Unless enough support is gathered and politician actually make laws to prevent this from happening, it would simply continue.

This is the essence of capitalism and as a public traded company, it's RBC's responsibility to do everything in its power to earn another dollar given the legal boundary.

I'm not suggesting RBC's actions were justifiable, but they were legally (pending investigation) correct while being a moral disaster. This is just how it works.

It's just like how rich people/company setup complex tax system to minimize taxes. They go to such an extreme that for some of them, their rate end up in negative territory.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:28 PM   #99
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Update:

Quote:
Royal Bank has promised it will never outsource a Canadian job to a foreign worker solely to save money.

The bank updated its code of conduct on Friday, after facing intense criticism last month for its hiring policies.

In a story first reported by CBC News, the bank was criticized heavily for laying off a number of IT workers in order to replace them with cheaper foreign workers.

"As part of its supplier review, RBC looked at the types of work the bank will and will not outsource to suppliers that execute all or part of the work offshore to ensure suppliers support RBC's focus on creating Canadian jobs and prosperity," the bank said in a statement Friday.

'Superior skill sets'
Specifically, the bank says it will only offshore work to suppliers "when their investment in scale, technology or operational knowledge provides superior skill sets and capabilities that RBC cannot duplicate inside its own business or in Canada."

"RBC will not offshore work where salary savings is the primary reason and will make every effort to source in Canada," the bank says.

The bank notes that all of its call centres are located in Canada, despite the trend in many industries to offshore them.

The bank faced harsh criticism for taking advantage of a government program known as the temporary foreign workers program, which is aimed at filling labour needs where suitably skilled Canadian workers can't be found for any given job.

The bank says it has used the program "on a very limited basis for executives and for workers with highly specialized skills," but in the new code of conduct, the bank says it will not use what it called the "low skills workers" program to fill jobs in Canada.

The B.C. Federation of Labour said it welcomed the bank's move.

"RBC has recognized that Canadians expect Canada's banks to provide good, family-supporting jobs in Canada," said federation president Jim Sinclair.

The federation said that following the initial reports of the outsourcing, the province's labour movement threatened to withdraw more than $5 billion in union and pension funds on deposit with the bank.

The federation also said it will continue discussion with the bank on the establishment of an independent monitor to review implementation of the new code of conduct.
Royal Bank pledges not to outsource jobs for cash savings - Canada - CBC News
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Old 05-25-2013, 09:59 AM   #100
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I was an RBC customer for over 17 years.

17 years no more.
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