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Old 08-31-2013, 04:15 PM   #1
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Immigrants a "fiscal burden", report says

I agree that there needs to be reform, too many people immigrating their parents and grandparents who do not pay taxes, and use up all our resources (Healthcare, welfare etc). Hospital wait times are already long as it is, no need to further burden the system.

Not that I think businesses should be making all the decisions though. Harper likes the term net benefit, and it should a "net benefit" to all Canadians overall, not a specific group.








Immigrants a 'fiscal burden,' Fraser Institute report suggests - British Columbia - CBC News


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new report suggests immigrants are imposing a "fiscal burden" of about $20 billion a year on Canadian taxpayers and recommends a number of radical changes to the country's immigration selection process, including bringing an end to the sponsorship of parents and grandparents.

The report, released today by the Fraser Institute, also proposes that the current immigrant selection process, which relies heavily on political considerations, be replaced with one that relies primarily on the private sector and labour market conditions.

"I recommend we get rid of the current system altogether, because it relies on decisions made by politicians on issues which are virtually unknowable and we substitute for it the judgment of business people," said Herbert Grubel, a senior fellow at the Fraser Institute and author of the report.

"People who employ workers, who know how much they can pay and have the government only make sure that the system works well and that the pay that is offered to these workers is at least enough to pay for the services they receive."

Canada's foreign-born population soars to 6.8 million
While Grubel argues that immigration of parents and grandparents be stopped completely, he says the changes should be phased in by making it applicable only to new immigrants arriving after the adoption of the proposed policy, allowing immigrants already in Canada to continue with the sponsorship of their parents and grandparents.

But immigration lawyer Zool Suleman said the study fails to look at many other factors, including when parents and grandparents contribute to Canadian society in often intangible ways.

He also referenced a 2011 Simon Fraser University study that found immigrants impose a far lower annual cost of about $450 per immigrant, or about $2 billion per year.

Canada selects the largest proportion of its immigrants using an objective points system that reflects the candidates' education, work experience, language competence, and other indicators that are linked with higher earnings.

Individuals selected on this basis are called "principal immigrants." In 2011, they numbered 64,397, representing 25.8 per cent of the 248,744 immigrants that year.

The principal immigrants were accompanied by their dependants (spouses and underage children) numbering 91,724.

The government refers to the principal immigrants and their dependants as "economic immigrants" who in 2011 numbered 156,121 and represented 62.8 per cent of all immigrants admitted.

"Parents and grandparents do a lot of undocumented, necessary work inside and outside of the house allowing Canadians to actually be out in the labour force," Suleman told CBC News.

"Let alone intangible, important things around values and family structure and trying to enshrine a variety of things that are important to Canada."

Such radical changes to the immigration selection process could result in the loss of highly skilled immigrants to Canada, Suleman warned.

"Over the years what I've seen is, many of the highly skilled immigrants who come and the middle skilled immigrants who come here clearly want the family to be part of the immigration plan, meaning parents and grandparents," he said.

"So I think that if they were not able to bring their parents and grandparents, Canada may not be in the top tier of countries that immigrants select to come to."

In May, Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney announced new criteria for sponsoring parents and grandparents to come to Canada that are aimed at ensuring elderly immigrants don't end up on welfare or in social housing.

Don't bring parents here for welfare, Kenney says
"I looked at the detailed steps he has taken and they’re all the right direction," Grubel said of Kenney's reforms. "But I am skeptical that they will in fact succeed in bringing in immigrants that will, in fact, pay for the government services that they consume and will not impose a burden on taxpayers."

The report also advocates for a public inquiry about the number of immigrants that are admitted into Canada on economic and humanitarian grounds.

Grubel said his research also indicated that immigrants who arrived in Canada after 1986 have been less successful economically than those who arrived before that time.

Fraser Institute report says immigrants, refugees impose ?fiscal burden? on Canada, urges reform | National Post

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OTTAWA — The Harper government recognizes and has taken action to deal with the “fiscal burden” imposed by Canada’s immigrants and refugees, but the government’s sweeping reforms will only make a minor dent in newcomers’ estimated $20 billion-a-year cost on society, according to a provocative report published Thursday.

Economist Herb Grubel of the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute argues that Ottawa should take more “radical” steps by phasing out the sponsorship of parents and grandparents, and by bringing in an employer-driven system to attract economic immigrants.

And the government should launch a public debate to determine whether Canada should be consistently bringing in roughly a quarter of a million newcomers a year, according to Mr. Grubel, a former caucus colleague of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s after they both became MPs under the Reform banner following the 1993 election.

Related
Number of asylum claims drops dramatically after Ottawa releases list of ‘safe’ countries
Ottawa blasts Quebec for ‘fraud’ program that ‘takes money’ from rich immigrants who move to other provinces
“The current government recognized the existence of this fiscal problem and initiated a series of new policies to reduce it,” Mr. Grubel noted in his report, which assesses Jason Kenney’s reforms from 2008 until his shuffle out of the immigration portfolio last month.

Postmedia files
Postmedia filesThe federal government has brought in on average about 250,000 immigrants and refugees annually, and in 2013 is expecting between 240,000 and 265,000
The new policies on economic and family-class immigration, and especially a tougher approach to asylum-seekers, will have some success in reducing the so-called burden caused by immigrants who cost more in social services and general government expenses than they contribute in taxes.

But Mr. Grubel said Canadians should be allowed to debate the broader question of just how many new Canadians are needed in coming years.

The federal government has brought in on average about 250,000 immigrants and refugees annually, and in 2013 is expecting between 240,000 and 265,000.

“No explicit economic rationale exists in the economic literature or government documents to justify the current level of annual immigration. Nor are there explicit discussions of its cultural and social implications,” according to Mr. Grubel.

A broad public policy debate involving politicians, academics and interest groups, whether it results in lower or higher immigrants, would at least ensure there is a “better informed and more rational Canadian immigration policy,” he concluded.
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Old 08-31-2013, 04:43 PM   #2
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"Parents and grandparents do a lot of undocumented, necessary work inside and outside of the house allowing Canadians to actually be out in the labour force," Suleman told CBC News.
What a load of shit. While I'm sure they do a lot of undocumented work that doesn't result in any tax revenue for the country, my parents and grandparents have always worked and yet that didn't make it any harder for me to go out and get a job... in fact, if both parents are working then they often employ somebody like a nanny who DOES pay taxes instead of their grandparents who come and then I end up paying for their healthcare...
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Old 08-31-2013, 04:57 PM   #3
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Fraser Institute? the conservative think tank that has blatantly lied in the past
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:31 PM   #4
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Let the parent and grandparents come in but they should be of working age and must work to qualify for health care and pension. Many families from foreign countries send their younger family members here to later bring in the older generation just to take advantage of our healthcare and pension. That there is the unfair burden to Canadians who have invested in these systems all their lives.
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:33 PM   #5
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^EXACTLY. Agree 100%
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:33 PM   #6
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Fraser Institute? the conservative think tank that has blatantly lied in the past
My thoughts exactly.
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:34 PM   #7
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Let the parent and grandparents come in but they should be of working age and must work to qualify for health care and pension. Many families from foreign countries send their younger family members here to later bring in the older generation just to take advantage of our healthcare and pension. That there is the unfair burden to Canadians who have invested in these systems all their lives.
So how does some who has not worked here get a pension?

My problem is highly educated immigrants having to work at unskilled jobs.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:02 PM   #8
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So how does some who has not worked here get a pension?

My problem is highly educated immigrants having to work at unskilled jobs.
That isn't just an immigrant problem, so many educated people not finding decent jobs. That said not having english as a first language would be a huge detriment when looking for work qualified or not.

On the subject of the original article if you don't contribute you should not be able to use the social systems in place for free.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:07 PM   #9
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My problem is highly educated immigrants having to work at unskilled jobs.
Yeah, I have a problem with this as well....I have known several doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers not be "qualified" to work in Canada simply because they are from India.

This is a true shame when you think about all those small communities in the interior and north screaming for new physicians.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:12 PM   #10
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The Fraser Institute runs a hard right. Everyone needs to know this going in. Their "role" apart from what it says on the website is to shape dialogue and open the population to certain conservative ideas.

In this case, yes, we all know that grandma and grandpa aren't going to "contribute" per se to the country. But the original kids do. And seriously, who wants to leave their family behind?

When I moved to BC from NS, I followed my mom, who in turn followed my sister. As a result, I moved her 14 years ago and have never been back, whereas so many other people end up returning home after a couple of years..not because anything changed at home, they still can't find work and have a productive career. No, they go back home because whether you have an ocean between you and family, or a country...its fucking hard!
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:41 PM   #11
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That isn't just an immigrant problem, so many educated people not finding decent jobs. That said not having english as a first language would be a huge detriment when looking for work qualified or not.
We have a shortage of doctors yet we have top doctors from countries like India who have no problem speaking English working as security guards.

We also have large amounts of seniors from out east who never put into MRSP in BC moving here and using our healthcare.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:58 PM   #12
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We also have large amounts of seniors from out east who never put into MRSP in BC moving here and using our healthcare.
With the nicest and mildest weather in the entire country, this is unfortunately a problem BC cannot avoid. As Canadians, seniors and retirees have every right to relocate anywhere in the the country as they wish. To tackle it, we really need the federal government to back us up on it. Ottawa is obviously aware of the issue, but whether they offer any real tangible support is another thing.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:09 PM   #13
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Really, And how about the future investment? Sure alot of new immigrants require assistance at first, but look at our parents who immigrated here. How many are successful homeowners that don't need government handouts?
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:10 PM   #14
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Yeah, I have a problem with this as well....I have known several doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers not be "qualified" to work in Canada simply because they are from India.

This is a true shame when you think about all those small communities in the interior and north screaming for new physicians.
Then why did they immigrate here in the first place?

Maybe they were shit doctors back home.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:13 PM   #15
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Then why did they immigrate here in the first place?

Maybe they were shit doctors back home.
Maybe they were top doctors back home but want a better life for there kids.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:17 PM   #16
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Maybe they were top doctors back home but want a better life for there kids.
If they were top doctors back home, i'm sure they could pay for the best schools back in india.

I'm not denying the doctors lobby is extremely tight here and well run.

But maybe I'm just being a little safe when I say that I wouldn't want my doctor coming from a country where corruption is rampant?

I trust doctors from "good" universities and med schools.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:19 PM   #17
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Really, And how about the future investment? Sure alot of new immigrants require assistance at first, but look at our parents who immigrated here. How many are successful homeowners that don't need government handouts?
Talking about immigrants that don't work or don't contribute to the net benefit of Canada.

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Then why did they immigrate here in the first place?

Maybe they were shit doctors back home.
Medical degrees and law degrees from certain countries are not recognized in Canada. They obviously moved here seeking a better life, and many of these "shit doctors" are highly educated, well rounded individuals who work medial jobs to support their family and contribute. Hats off to them in my books.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:20 PM   #18
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Medical degrees and law degrees from certain countries are not recognized in Canada. They obviously moved here seeking a better life, and many of these "shit doctors" are highly educated, well rounded individuals who work medial jobs to support their family and contribute. Hats off to them in my books.
This is the point I'm getting at.

Just like how alot of my classmates from highschool went to the bahamas to go to med school and then cry that they can't get residency back home.

Well no shit, everyone gets accepted there. The only place they can usually find residency is in the USA.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:24 PM   #19
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Sigh...ok.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:26 PM   #20
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People also leave countries for political reasons....you seem to have to idea that this issue is black and white. It is not. Your attitude about this issue come off as you being pretty naive.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:28 PM   #21
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People are leave countries for political reasons....you seem to have to idea that this issue is black and white. It is not. Your attitude about this issue come off as you being pretty naive.
How am I being Naive?

They don't accept their degrees for a reason. Again. Would you want your doctor to have his med degree from a country known for corruption? Maybe his father paid to get the degree. Maybe it's fake? Their universities might not have the same check and balances.

Great they come to Canada, but all the complaints I see about engineers and junk doesn't mean shit.

Alot of engineers get headhunted from other countries for jobs in Canada. They come here knowing full well that they can't get a job doing what they were doing back home.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:30 PM   #22
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Sigh...ok.
I'm trying hard not to be a dick, and be open about it. But the honest truth is I have 2 friends in med school right now 1 aspiring to be and 1 who already graduated from a university in the Bahamas. The reality is the 2 that are doing med school here (My roommate at UofC and my friend also at UofC) constantly trash on the doctors that do their degrees at such universities. They know damn well that just about anybody gets accepted to those universities. Sure they find work (in the USA) but their healthcare system has different standards as it does here.

Again i'm fully aware of the doctor's lobby we have here. Were probably the only country that wont let nurses become anesthesiologists.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:35 PM   #23
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It is naive because you seem to view this issue as black and white. North American medical system=good, everywhere else=corrupt and bad.

There are skilled surgeons all over the world. There are advances to medicine all over the world. People are treated for disease all over the world. There are excellent medical schools all over the world.

I do think there needs to be a basic medical exam for those coming from other countries who want to practice medicine here, but I don't think we need to stone-wall these people.

Last edited by dinosaur; 08-31-2013 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:35 PM   #24
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We have a shortage of doctors yet we have top doctors from countries like India who have no problem speaking English working as security guards.

We also have large amounts of seniors from out east who never put into MRSP in BC moving here and using our healthcare.
Difference with the seniors moving cross country is you'd be granted the same service if you went to eastern Canada even if you didn't pay into it. If I moved to India are they going to provide with free or near free healthcare? Saskatchewan you pay nothing and you get the same service as here no such thing as MSP premiums.
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:40 PM   #25
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Difference with the seniors moving cross country is you'd be granted the same service if you went to eastern Canada even if you didn't pay into it. If I moved to India are they going to provide with free or near free healthcare? Saskatchewan you pay nothing and you get the same service as here no such thing as MSP premiums.
The problem is more people are moving from the east to the west then people are moving from the west to the east.
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