Immigrants a "fiscal burden", report says

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Manic!

The problem is more people are moving from the east to the west then people are moving from the west to the east.

If you are only talking about seniors, that would be true. But overall, we also have a ton of working age people moving over to the East as they progress up the corporate ladder. I'd have to do some googling to see what the net numbers are like.

As far as professional qualifications are concerned, given that Canada is part of the Commonwealth, I think it is reasonable to make profession re-qualification / re-certification easier for those coming from the Commonwealth. Currently, I don't think Commonwealth countries get this break.

[meowjinboo]

I move to calgary on monday

[dark0821]

I dont want to get into this argument/issue, frankly I dont think I know enough to really have a well thought out opinion.

So I will just type my own part of the experience. I disagree about the article regarding cutting off immigration for grandparents all together. Even though I know and acknowledge there are people who are free loading off the Canadian system, I do to think there needs to be some kind of reform in written policies. Do I have a solution? No I dont.

Back to my own case, My wife and I just gave birth to our daughter, and we did bring over the mother's grandmother from China to help with taking care of the new born. I am still working full time, my wife is on maternity leave atm. And I think having a grandparent over here can make sure my wife goes back to full time when her maternity leave is over. And also saves us close to $1000 a month on day care. So yes, given the same situation, I would bring over our grandparent again and again, and personally if the system was changed to the one being proposed, that would have created huge difficulties in my situation. So I for one, is thankful that we still have that option.

//end rant

[quasi]

Originally Posted by meowjinboo

I move to calgary on monday

I have a couple friends leaving next weekend just sold there place and another couple that left last year. Seems like the place to be especially if you're getting that oil money or in the trades.

[Phil@rise]

Foreign skilled workers comming here is not a burden on our systems nor on us taxpayers. Thats a sacrifice they took comming here. If an Indian Doctor comes here and becomes a doctor off of their existing credentials then that becomes a conflict of interest. School in India is far cheaper then school here so what would stop Canadians from going to India or some other much cheaper country for education purposes and comming back. All of a sudden we have a field of medical professionals educated to a different standard and with some focus on issues not so pertinent to Canadian health issues. Not to mention the crumble of our Canadian education system. We'd be unable to teach our own.
Thats all a side issue to what OP started but I'm happy our government and professional industries dont validate foreign education and trades.

[xpl0sive]

what about the people who come here, collect unemployment without ever paying into it, and work for cash under the table? Blatant abuse of the Canadian system....

[finbar]

[rant]

Xenophobia cha cha cha

I've built too many clinics, Kins, London drugs bla bla blas to care.

Taxed the living shit out of my paycheque, purchases, gas, taxes on taxes, on it goes.

Fuckit

Just some bollix out to make political/advertising hay

[/rant]

There, all better now.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by xpl0sive

what about the people who come here, collect unemployment without ever paying into it, and work for cash under the table? Blatant abuse of the Canadian system....

You can't collect EI without working first.

[meowjinboo]

Originally Posted by quasi

I have a couple friends leaving next weekend just sold there place and another couple that left last year. Seems like the place to be especially if you're getting that oil money or in the trades.

I think if you are a young professional, its the place to go.

I'm not scared and I'm going in cold.

[Marshall Placid]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

The Fraser Institute runs a hard right. Everyone needs to know this going in. Their "role" apart from what it says on the website is to shape dialogue and open the population to certain conservative ideas.

In this case, yes, we all know that grandma and grandpa aren't going to "contribute" per se to the country. But the original kids do. And seriously, who wants to leave their family behind?

When I moved to BC from NS, I followed my mom, who in turn followed my sister. As a result, I moved her 14 years ago and have never been back, whereas so many other people end up returning home after a couple of years..not because anything changed at home, they still can't find work and have a productive career. No, they go back home because whether you have an ocean between you and family, or a country...its fucking hard!

Agreed.

The Fraser Institute's article fails to point out many, many other factors that can be quantified, but not in Government reports.

These include:
1- Sales tax the parents and grandparents pay to purchase items, including food, lodgings, etc.
2- Taking care of dependants so that the employable immigrants can go and work.
3- Skilled workers would think twice about coming to Canada without the inclusion of the option to bring in their parents/grandparents.

Originally Posted by meowjinboo

Really, And how about the future investment? Sure alot of new immigrants require assistance at first, but look at our parents who immigrated here. How many are successful homeowners that don't need government handouts?

I agree that some immigrants might start out "in the red" but some, if not most, will pay their fair share of taxes from income tax, sales tax, property tax, etc.

Originally Posted by Phil@rise

Let the parent and grandparents come in but they should be of working age and must work to qualify for health care and pension. Many families from foreign countries send their younger family members here to later bring in the older generation just to take advantage of our healthcare and pension. That there is the unfair burden to Canadians who have invested in these systems all their lives.

Yes, many families do bring their dependants (parents/grand-parents), and they do give an unfair burden to Canadians.

But, the net effect is net positive, in the black for the Government.

Why?
1-The young family members or employable members who look for jobs and get jobs get taxed.
2- The older generation must eat, sleep, and be clothed (food, shelter, and clothing).

So, they pay sales tax, property tax, etc.

For example:
Lets take into account 2 grand-parents ONLY (without taking into account the younger employable members):

Government spending for these 2 grand-parents, who need medical assistance due to... lets say... diabetes or another long-term chronic health problem.

These are estimates/guesses (for the #s):
1- Doctor visits, six times a year - $100 per visit, $600 total.
2- Emergency-room visits, once a year? - $1,000?
3- And, contrary to what I thought I knew, recent seniors/grandparents who come to Canada cannot collect most type of assistance payments from the Government.

Income Assistance - For Seniors - Service Canada

Most, if not all, of the benefits only apply to seniors that have lived here for 10 or more years.

4-There could be more spending on the Government's part, but I can't think of them right now.

Contribution by the grandparents include "straight-up" taxes which they pay directly to the local, provincial, and Federal governments.
AND:
The money they spend stimulate the economy which creates jobs, and using the multiplier effect, boosts the economy.

1- Sales tax for food items and clothing - Spend $4,000 per year on food items = 5% = $200.
2- Other sales tax for other items. $200
3- Property tax for the houses they live in (varies, so I will leave this blank, around 0.3% to 0.6% of assessed value)
4- Transportation costs.
5- Medical services plan, for seniors? Lets estimate it at $100 per month, or $1,200 per year.

So............ lets just agree that the effect, based on taxes paid by the grandparents and direct spending by the government is the same... or roughly positive for the Government (meaning the grandparents pay more to the Government than the Government pays to the grandparents).

Add this:
The money the grandparents spend on retail goods and food creates jobs, so the end result is that the grandparents stimulate the economy and pay out more than the Government pays to them.

Rough conclusion?
The grandparents spend more in Canada than the Government pays to grandparents (from medical visits, disbursements, etc.).

Now, these are just the numbers.

You have to include the fact that the grandparents take care of OTHER kids/dependants so the employable adults can go and find jobs and get taxes, etc.

So, the grandparents/parents sponsorship program is a net-positive process/program for Canadians, the Government, and everybody!

-------------------

What about the unskilled workers "stealing" jobs away from other workers?

Or... dare I say... skilled workers stealing jobs away from other skilled workers?

The unemployment rate is 7.2%:

CBC News - Unemployment statistics

It's low.

There are enough jobs for everybody, skilled or unskilled.

Compare to other developed countries, in Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_unemployment_rate
We are doing better than most first-world European countries.

And.........

I truly believe this is due to Canada's effective immigration policy.

That is where the Fraser Institute is dead wrong about their stance of removing or phasing out the grandparents/parents sponsorship programs.

But... they are correct in identifying the fact there are so many foreign-born Canadians: 6.8 million+.

That is a good thing, at least in my point of view, based on the previously mentioned reasons.

This proves that increased immigration will only benefit Canadians in the LONG-RUN through job creation, taxation of said new jobs, taxation of sponsored parents/grandparents (sales tax, etc.), sponsored parents providing care for young dependants [so adults can go and find work], etc.

Canada has a long history of welcoming immigrants.

In fact, Canada was built and founded on the foundation and idea of immigration.

Removing the sponsorship program is ill advised for the economy in the long-run.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Traum

If you are only talking about seniors, that would be true. But overall, we also have a ton of working age people moving over to the East as they progress up the corporate ladder. I'd have to do some googling to see what the net numbers are like.

This makes the problem much worse actually

[Traum]

^^ There is literally nothing we can do to change the situation though. We can't change the fact that the west coast, with Victoria and Vancouver in particular, has the best weather across the entire country. Nor can we change the fact that the east coast, with Toronto and Montreal specifically, is the financial and business center of the country. And then there is our next door neighbour, Alberta, offering the most progressive economic growth and poaching a lot of our younger talents with their numerous employment opportunities.

This is why I said earlier in the thread that Ottawa needs to support BC.

[quasi]

Originally Posted by meowjinboo

I think if you are a young professional, its the place to go.

I'm not scared and I'm going in cold.

My cousin has been there for about 15 years and he makes a gross amount of money doing IT work for an oil company. The same job he does there would pay him maybe 1/5 of what he makes if he was doing it in any other sector but he has to travel 4-5 days a week and the money won't last forever.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by Traum

^^ There is literally nothing we can do to change the situation though. We can't change the fact that the west coast, with Victoria and Vancouver in particular, has the best weather across the entire country. Nor can we change the fact that the east coast, with Toronto and Montreal specifically, is the financial and business center of the country. And then there is our next door neighbour, Alberta, offering the most progressive economic growth and poaching a lot of our younger talents with their numerous employment opportunities.

This is why I said earlier in the thread that Ottawa needs to support BC.

Make immigrants ineligible for pension and health care if they enter before age 50?

[Traum]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Make immigrants ineligible for pension and health care if they enter before age 50?

The things i mentioned previously aren't strictly related to just immigrants -- they really apply to how things generally are in Canada.

With the way the CPP is structured, people already cannot get very much out of it if they haven't spent years contributing to it, so we've got that base covered. OAS also has the 10/20 year rule that offers some protection against free loaders, so we are kind of covered there as well.

For health care, I don't think that can be denied to immigrants. It is pretty much a basic right that citizens and permanent residents are entitled to. If we try to change that, I'm sure someone will mount a legal challenge and win. But the Conservative government is kind of changing that by shifting immigration preferences away from the family reunion type of immigration. In its place, we now have the 10 year super visa for family reunification purposes.

[bing]

Originally Posted by Marshall Placid

Government spending for these 2 grand-parents, who need medical assistance due to... lets say... diabetes or another long-term chronic health problem.

These are estimates/guesses (for the #s):
1- Doctor visits, six times a year - $100 per visit, $600 total.
2- Emergency-room visits, once a year? - $1,000?
3- And, contrary to what I thought I knew, recent seniors/grandparents who come to Canada cannot collect most type of assistance payments from the Government.

Income Assistance - For Seniors - Service Canada

Not sure how accurate this is but read this in the Globe & Mail once:

Average annual health-care costs for Canadians between 15 and 64 amounted to $2,500 in 2010, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information. Between 65 and 69, they hit $6,200; at 80 and above, $20,000.

This budget will keep Ottawa safe, dump on the provinces - The Globe and Mail

[Manic!]

FYI: If someone comes here on super visa they have to pay for there own health insurance.

Also when Tommy Douglas introduced government funded heath care to Saskatchewan the doctors went on strike. Tommy Douglas brought in Doctors from other countries. Today those doctors would be banned from practicing in Canada.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by dinosaur

I do think there needs to be a basic medical exam for those coming from other countries who want to practice medicine here, but I don't think we need to stone-wall these people.

This, there needs to be an international standard. Many people don't trust degrees from foreign countries because many times, the degrees were "bought" through corruption and knowing the right people.

I know in many of the countries you can pay off professors, politicians and other licensing officials to get licenses. for ex, some nurses and care aids come here with licenses and certificates that are not fully legit, and just by taking with them you can tell they are not as fully qualified as a person from Canada would be.
This is unfortunate for the top doctors/professionals that are truly talented as they are lumped in with the bad apples.

An international standard would eliminate this problem.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by Gridlock

The Fraser Institute runs a hard right. Everyone needs to know this going in. Their "role" apart from what it says on the website is to shape dialogue and open the population to certain conservative ideas.

quoted as this should have been a disclaimer on my initial thread post.

the Fraser Institute has been involved in some ethical violations and controversies in the past as well.

[Gridlock]

^^It's a classic technique to state the worst, and settle for what you want.

"Fuck your old immigrants"

Well..maybe we'll settle for a few more restrictions on who we let in, and how many years you have to be here before you can sponsor people.

[Energy]

Originally Posted by meowjinboo

Just like how alot of my classmates from highschool went to the bahamas to go to med school and then cry that they can't get residency back home.

I have no sympathy for people like this that take the back door route.

But if someone comes from overseas, is actually from there, and has qualifications from top schools like Oxford or Cambridge then that is another story.

edit: dinosaur, you'd be ok with someone who wasn't able to get into medical school in Canada and then going to a degree mill in the Bahamas treating you over a Canadian doctor or a foreign doctor with an education from a respected institution? I would be a bit uncomfortable with that especially as its my health we are talking about here. There's a reason Canadian standards are high and they were not able to attend med school in Canada. And I'm not saying all foreign trained doctors are not good either.

[bing]

There is a process for certifying foreign trained doctors (my uncle before he immigrated went to med school in Taiwan, but immediately after graduating took the exam for both the US and Canada successfully while he was still fresh - he later became head of emergency). The issue may be more about the difficulty of the process itself. Anyone remember the taco luis owner, the ophthalmologist? he said it is an 18 month wait for residency since they favor locally over foreign trained (as should be expected) and after 10 years of trying, he gave up.

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by meowjinboo

I think if you are a young professional, its the place to go.

Perhaps, but what are YOU going to be doing there?

[meowjinboo]

Originally Posted by El Bastardo

Perhaps, but what are YOU going to be doing there?

oil and gas related.