REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Police Forum

Police Forum Police Head Mod: Skidmark
Questions & info about the Motor Vehicle Act. Mature discussion only.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-21-2014, 05:43 PM   #1
wix
I bringith the lowerballerith
 
wix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,153
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Disputing Traffic Ticket for Illegal U-turn

Hello,

I got ticketed today coming home from work at around 3:30 PM on Annacis Island for a Prohibited U-turn, MVA 168(b)(iii).

The cop said I u-turned where there was a No U-turn sign. But I left turned into a business area first before right turning out of it.

Should I bother disputing? or just take the hit?

Here is a picture of how I turned. There were very few cars in that area at the time except for one car that I let pass before I completed my right turn back onto Cliveden Pl.

Advertisement

Last edited by wix; 01-21-2014 at 05:57 PM.
wix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 05:53 PM   #2
nma
#RVG
 
nma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richmond
Posts: 557
Thanked 624 Times in 201 Posts
i think if you went in the lot, turned around, then drove out, you'd have a case. but seeing as how you kinda just half entered and exited out it might be tough.. not sure tbh
nma is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 01-21-2014, 06:12 PM   #3
wix
I bringith the lowerballerith
 
wix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,153
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.. The "No U-turn" sign is for the road "Cliveden Pl". I was technically turning into the lot, and then right back out onto the road. Although not completely.
wix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 06:20 PM   #4
MiX iT Up!
 
tiger_handheld's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: vancouver
Posts: 7,692
Thanked 1,908 Times in 771 Posts
Looks like a J turn instead of a U.

Dispute it. I would.

Cop is being anal because it's that time of the month.
__________________

Sometimes we tend to be in despair when the person we love leaves us, but the truth is, it's not our loss, but theirs, for they left the only person who couldn't give up on them.


Make the effort and take the risk..

"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." - Eleanor Roosevelt
tiger_handheld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2014, 10:51 PM   #5
wix
I bringith the lowerballerith
 
wix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,153
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Do you guys think I should dispute the allegation or the fine?

I care more about the demerit points than anything. 2 points and $121 for doing a U-turn on an empty side street =\
wix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 12:35 AM   #6
CRS
ninja edits your posts without your knowledge
 
CRS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 14,364
Thanked 5,489 Times in 1,480 Posts
You would need to dispute the allegation.
CRS is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 01-22-2014, 09:54 AM   #7
Captain Happy Bubble is my Homeboy
 
ancient_510's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: YVR
Posts: 345
Thanked 204 Times in 108 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRS View Post
You would need to dispute the allegation.
Not wholly true.

If you go to Court, the charging officer will meet with you pre-trial to discuss your intent.

In that meeting you may ask the officer to rewrite your ticket to be against you as the registered owner instead of the operator.

This way you pay the fine but receive no points.
ancient_510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 10:12 AM   #8
#savethemanuals
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Richmond
Posts: 3,755
Thanked 2,232 Times in 860 Posts
Dispute it if you actually did enter into the business area first.

How far in the lot did you go? It sounds like you wanted to u-turn and just cut into the "driveway" of the business so that your u-turn would be easier.
__________________
987 Porsche Cayman S 6MT


Gone:
E92 BMW 335i
AP1 Honda S2000
FA1 Honda Civic
Energy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 10:49 AM   #9
CRS
ninja edits your posts without your knowledge
 
CRS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 14,364
Thanked 5,489 Times in 1,480 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient_510 View Post
Not wholly true.

If you go to Court, the charging officer will meet with you pre-trial to discuss your intent.

In that meeting you may ask the officer to rewrite your ticket to be against you as the registered owner instead of the operator.

This way you pay the fine but receive no points.
How is disputing the allegation not wholly true?

If you're disputing the fine, you're looking for a reduction in how much the ticket is going to cost you.

With what the OP posted, he/she would be disputing the allegation as they say they didn't actually commit the violation.
CRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 11:20 AM   #10
I Will not Admit my Addiction to RS
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 604
Posts: 506
Thanked 466 Times in 126 Posts
CRS is right

/thread

similar thing happened to me
jjson is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 11:38 AM   #11
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
BoostedBB6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,796
Thanked 1,831 Times in 587 Posts
So you make an illegal U turn, which you outline with your diagram and get dinged for it, now you wonder if you should dispute it.......well, if you an honest person with good morals, no you should atone for your mistakes, take the slap on the wrist and move on. If for some reason you believe that you are in the right because of your various justifications on doing something wrong, then dispute it.

U-turn
n
1. a turn made by a vehicle in the shape of a U, resulting in a reversal of direction
2. a complete change in direction of political or other policy
BoostedBB6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 12:53 PM   #12
wix
I bringith the lowerballerith
 
wix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,153
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostedBB6 View Post
So you make an illegal U turn, which you outline with your diagram and get dinged for it, now you wonder if you should dispute it.......well, if you an honest person with good morals, no you should atone for your mistakes, take the slap on the wrist and move on. If for some reason you believe that you are in the right because of your various justifications on doing something wrong, then dispute it.

U-turn
n
1. a turn made by a vehicle in the shape of a U, resulting in a reversal of direction
2. a complete change in direction of political or other policy
Thanks for all the replies! I don't mind paying the ticket. But yeah, I thought it was a grey area since I did pull into the entrance of the lot and then turned right back out. I waited for a few cars to go past before I turned right, back onto the road. If I performed the U-turn on the actual road itself, I wouldn't be able to do that as I would have been blocking oncoming traffic.

I'm not sure if what I did is still considered a U-turn, even though I didn't explicitly drive into the lot. and do a 3 point turn out of it.

However, if what I did is still considered a U-turn and my explanation will not hold in court. Then I'll gladly pay for the ticket, or maybe I will just write in to see if I can have the fine reduced.
wix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 12:54 PM   #13
wix
I bringith the lowerballerith
 
wix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,153
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjson View Post
CRS is right

/thread

similar thing happened to me
What happened after you disputed? Was the allegation dropped?
wix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 02:03 PM   #14
Captain Happy Bubble is my Homeboy
 
ancient_510's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: YVR
Posts: 345
Thanked 204 Times in 108 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRS View Post
How is disputing the allegation not wholly true?
Sorry

I read "You would need to dispute the allegation." as "You can only dispute the allegation."

And then I took the word dispute to mean that you were advising OP to get the whole thing dismissed when I just wanted to advise how he could pay the full fine and skip the points because:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wix View Post
I care more about the demerit points than anything.
Yup.
ancient_510 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2014, 03:51 PM   #15
Even when im right, revscene.net is still right!
 
Gnomes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Richmond
Posts: 1,311
Thanked 609 Times in 187 Posts
Do you have a dash cam to film your turn into that parking lot? If the cop was originally parked behind cars, in the opposite direction, he may not see you enter the premise and report what he saw
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSALES View Post
While driving yesterday I saw a banana peel in the road and instinctively swerved to avoid it...thanks Mario Kart.
Gnomes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 10:54 AM   #16
racing & tech mod.
 
Rich Sandor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,027
Thanked 491 Times in 183 Posts
Let's just take a step back here and use some common sense, and answer some important questions first:

WHY is there a no U-turn sign put there?

Obviously, because someone noticed a NEED for one. Maybe it's either unsafe, or an obstruction to traffic to perform a U-turn where the sign is posted.

Did the OP create an unsafe situation? Did he block traffic? Did he actually perform the U-turn ON THE ROAD, or did he perform a series of maneuvers that are not the same as the actual definition in the BC Motor Vehicle Act of a reverse turn or U-turn. Even if he did not perform an actual U-turn, was the maneuver that he did perform SAFE?

Why did the cop write the ticket? Do you think the cop felt as if the maneuver was unsafe? Did he simply think you were blatantly disobeying a sign that you should have seen?

The law is black & white (most of the time) but real life is shades of gray. If you really feel it is unfair, just dispute it. If, after answering the above questions, something inside you says you shouldn't have done it, just pay the fine.
Rich Sandor is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 01-23-2014, 03:46 PM   #17
RS Peace Officer
 
zulutango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver Islan
Posts: 3,850
Thanked 1,623 Times in 678 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Sandor View Post
Let's just take a step back here and use some common sense, and answer some important questions first:

WHY is there a no U-turn sign put there?

Obviously, because someone noticed a NEED for one. Maybe it's either unsafe, or
The law is black & white (most of the time) but real life is shades of gray. If you really feel it is unfair, just dispute it. If, after answering the above questions, something inside you says you shouldn't have done it, just pay the fine.

So does that mean everybody is into handcuffs, whips & chickens??????
zulutango is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 01-23-2014, 04:01 PM   #18
RS Veteran
 
Spidey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 8,773
Thanked 1,264 Times in 617 Posts
Reverse turn

168 Except as provided by the bylaws of a municipality or the laws of a treaty first nation, a driver must not turn a vehicle so as to proceed in the opposite direction

(a) unless the driver can do so without interfering with other traffic, or,

(b) when he or she is driving

(i) on a curve,

(ii) on an approach to or near the crest of a grade where the vehicle cannot be seen by the driver of another vehicle approaching from either direction within 150 m,

(iii) at a place where a sign prohibits making a U-turn,

(iv) at an intersection where a traffic control signal has been erected, or

(v) in a business district, except at an intersection where no traffic control signal has been erected.

The definition of a U turn aka reverse term is pretty vague, so from what you illustrated, you did conduct a reverse turn. So yes it is illegal.

Also people, just because there isn't a sign indicating no u turn, does not mean you CAN do a u turn. U turns are not permitted at any intersections with lights.
Spidey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 07:23 PM   #19
racing & tech mod.
 
Rich Sandor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,027
Thanked 491 Times in 183 Posts
^ Question to Zulu and Spidey:

Where EXACTLY does a school zone start? Where EXACTLY does a 50kph zone start? Where EXACTLY do you stop for a stop sign?

Where EXACTLY does a "no U-turn" sign take effect?
Rich Sandor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 07:32 PM   #20
wix
I bringith the lowerballerith
 
wix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,153
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanks for everyone's replies. I talked to the enforcing officer's supervisor today and he stated that even though I used the driveway of the business lot, it is still considered a U-turn. But he mentioned that that is their intepretation of the MVA, so I can dispute it and see what the judge says. He told me that I can discuss options with the enforcing officer (like what ancient_510 said, I may ask the officer to rewrite my ticket to be against me as the registered owner instead of the operator so that I do not get demerit points). And also pay a reduced fee as well. So I will be disputing the ticket

Thanks again everyone!
wix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 07:41 PM   #21
MOD MOD MOD MOD MOD
 
nabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: vancouver
Posts: 5,526
Thanked 3,333 Times in 1,061 Posts
According to your drawing, I would definitely dispute that allegation, Because you pulled into a private lot, then pulled out of a private lot. I don't see it as being a "U-Turn" and would actually be felt wronged getting this ticket. But that's just me.
__________________
.

Looking for something to do tonight? ====> OFFICIAL MUSIC EVENTS CALENDAR

Spoiler!
nabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 07:56 PM   #22
racing & tech mod.
 
Rich Sandor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,027
Thanked 491 Times in 183 Posts
Look, I wasn't there.. I don't know how careful or careless you where in the maneuver, but here are 2 things to consider that may help you:

1: The "no u-turn" sign is there because there is a curve in the road past the sign, whereby it would be unsafe to perform a u-turn. There is no curve in the road at the place you performed the u-turn. The sign is beyond, and takes effect beyond, where you performed the turn.

2: You turned left into a drive way. It is legal to turn left into that driveway. You then turn right out of the driveway, which is also legal. That is VERY DIFFERENT from doing a 3-point turn in the middle of the road.

I'm not saying what you did was legal or safe, I wasn't there, but based on how you explained your side of the story, and how I interpret it with the above facts, you might have a case to dispute the ticket.

good luck, and try to drive safe in the future!
Rich Sandor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 09:56 PM   #23
RS has made me the bitter person i am today!
 
meme405's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,625
Thanked 7,175 Times in 2,176 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Sandor View Post
Look, I wasn't there.. I don't know how careful or careless you where in the maneuver, but here are 2 things to consider that may help you:

1: The "no u-turn" sign is there because there is a curve in the road past the sign, whereby it would be unsafe to perform a u-turn. There is no curve in the road at the place you performed the u-turn. The sign is beyond, and takes effect beyond, where you performed the turn.

2: You turned left into a drive way. It is legal to turn left into that driveway. You then turn right out of the driveway, which is also legal. That is VERY DIFFERENT from doing a 3-point turn in the middle of the road.

I'm not saying what you did was legal or safe, I wasn't there, but based on how you explained your side of the story, and how I interpret it with the above facts, you might have a case to dispute the ticket.

good luck, and try to drive safe in the future!
Not saying you are wrong, but I would not say that he turned left into that driveway...

If he goes with that defense he will probably lose, because its pretty obvious from that picture that is not what happened. Kinda reminds me how cutting through a corner gas station is illegal, same type of law, where you could kinda say that wasn't your intent, but realistically everyone and their mother knows it was exactly your intent.

As for anything else, I do not know this area well, but I will throw in here that in Canada it is illegal to make U-turns unless there is a sign saying you can (this applies to intersections). I am guessing this is more of a driveway rather than an intersection, but you would not believe how many americans come up here and do not know this rule about BC. (In the states you can make a U-turn, unless there is a sign saying you CANNOT. Pretty much exactly the opposite of us here).
__________________

Barney Fucking Purple FX35
Brianna - 2008 FX35 - Build Thread
meme405 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2014, 10:55 PM   #24
racing & tech mod.
 
Rich Sandor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4,027
Thanked 491 Times in 183 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by meme405 View Post
Not saying you are wrong, but I would not say that he turned left into that driveway...
Based on the drawing, if it's accurate, his car would have completely left the main roadway, just as if he were making a left turn into that driveway. He would not have been stopped, nor reversing, in such a manner as to block oncoming traffic. (again, based on his drawing)

Quote:
Kinda reminds me how cutting through a corner gas station is illegal, same type of law, where you could kinda say that wasn't your intent, but realistically everyone and their mother knows it was exactly your intent.
This has been successfully argued both ways. Cutting into a gas station is not the same as running a red light. It is fundamentally completely different. The risks and consequences are not remotely comparable. The intersection lights control traffic for the lanes on the road below the lights. They have no authority over traffic leaving the roadway before the intersection or after it. DESPITE what some officers will tell you. Just because an officer writes a ticket, and someone dutifully pays it, does NOT mean that ticket was valid in the first place.

But again, it depends on the situation. If someone BOMBS into a gas station at 50kph without slowing down, they deserve a ticket, by all means, but not the same ticket as running a red light. If someone SAFELY crawls into a gas station, why should it be any different than turning right at an earlier street?

Again, it has been successfully argued both ways.

Quote:
As for anything else, I do not know this area well, but I will throw in here that in Canada it is illegal to make U-turns unless there is a sign saying you can (this applies to intersections).
Not exactly. In BC, it is only illegal to make a U-turn at CONTROLLED intersections. You can make u-turns legally at any uncontrolled intersection or stretch of road. (as long as it's not a curve, grade, or blocking traffic)

FYI, U-turn laws vary from province to province and state to state.

Last edited by Rich Sandor; 01-23-2014 at 11:00 PM.
Rich Sandor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2014, 08:15 AM   #25
RS Peace Officer
 
zulutango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver Islan
Posts: 3,850
Thanked 1,623 Times in 678 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Sandor View Post
^ Question to Zulu and Spidey:

Where EXACTLY does a school zone start? Where EXACTLY does a 50kph zone start? Where EXACTLY do you stop for a stop sign?

Where EXACTLY does a "no U-turn" sign take effect?
School zones reduced speeds begin at the sign

50kmh zones start at the sign unless you are inside a municipality, where it is 50k everywhere

Where you stop FOR a stop sign depends on the road layout. Where there is a stop line, stop before that, where there is a marked crosswalk, stop before that, where there is neither a stop line or crosswalk but there are sidewalks on either side that would connect to form an "invisible crosswalk" then stop before that. Where are none of the above things I just mentioned, then you stop just before the edge of the intersecting roadway, where pedestrians would be walking facing oncoming traffic. If you stop at the sign without taking these things into account, you will likely be wrong about 90% of the time.

Other posts here have already given you info about u turns.
zulutango is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net