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Old 02-11-2014, 12:56 AM   #26
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I smoked crack once in Costa Rica during an epic thunderstorm, it was an amazing experience!

Smoking crack in an alley when you're a homeless addict is probably not such an amazing experience.



Edit: I never used it again because smoking crack literally makes you feel like a god. The absolute definition of the word euphoria.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:14 AM   #27
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It's illegal for people under 19 to buy rolling papers. I can be fined 100k foe selling to minors and lose the right to sell any tobacco products. So why should they be able to sell crack pipes to minors? And yes I know you can smoke weed using a tin can or pages from the bible. It's B.S. that legal business have to follow the rules but anything goes in the DTES
well to be fair, some gas stations and convenience stores sell (sold? don't know if they're still around) these glass tubes with fake flowers in them. marketed as a gift but everybody knows it's a crack pipe. the point is that it's just a glass tube. whether or not you smoke crack in it is not under the government's control. but rolling papers are MADE to smoke either tobacco or weed and both of which is illegal for minors.

if someone made a type of paper that looks like a notebook but magically is also very convenient to roll into a joint... well then that's a different story.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:22 AM   #28
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these parents you're all worried about are fucking idiots if their kid tries crack because there's a 25cent pipe vending machine. they failed as parents and the kid is likely a delinquent at that point.
if someone has access to crack and they want to use it. a pipe vending machine will have absolutely nothing to do with their ability to use that crack.

i hope you're trolling because your posts on this subject are so ignorant it's hard for me to take you seriously.
You can be the best damn parent in the world and give the best of everything to your child. But you can't control them.
How many people on this site live with their parents still and pop e and get stoned or snort rails while their parents aren't even aware of any of it?

I know I sure have. Get high at school, snort rails before going out to a club and then shove a few e/ketamine pills down my throat...am I a delinquent? Absolutely not, hell I've never even had a parking ticket...Just shit I tried since it was available directly in front of me and I was curious which led to me being a rec user until I finally quit all that shit.

My parents didn't fail shit at raising me. They told me countless times drugs are bad. I just wanted to do it cause I could. But if there's a way that acts as a stepping stone to get started for new users (retarded vending machine), then yeah that's a little fucking stupid to me.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:55 AM   #29
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Saves them money and causes you a 300$ deductable every time they smash through your passenger window to steal a plastic coffee mug, 3$ in change, and a pack of gum. But hey! It's worth it! Now they'll only have to break into 5-6 cars to get the money they need to buy the crack, not 8-10 thanks to their 25cent pipe!

Stupidest thing ever.
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Spending $0.25 and, according to your figures, saving $900-1200 is an obscenely successful return on investment, and despite that you ridicule and denounce the idea. I don't understand your opposition, because this directly, cheaply, and very effectively targets the exact problem you've noted - drug crime. I wonder what your alternative means of addressing the problem would be? What would you do to combat the problem of drug crime? Keep in mind, I'm not even considering the health care related benefits in this response.
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:03 AM   #30
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some reason I kinda want to buy one just beacause.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:35 AM   #31
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Or our society would turn into a utopia

Making pipes that easily accessible is wrong. Some teenagers walk past it, get curious, figure why not...it's only 25cents. Grab a few, walk half a block to buy some crack thinking it'll be a cool 1 time thing....bam some parents now have a crack head for a son. What if it was your son/daughter? I'm sure a LOT of us had smoked cigarets or weed, done a rail of coke, or popped some E because it was readily accessible and they figured it would be a one time thing to do for fun with friends.
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lol this is literally the most retarded logic in the world

people dont do drugs because its accessible, people do it because they have a desire to. and crack pipes are hilariously already accessible - you can use a lightbulb, any random ass glass tube. hell even a pen would do in a pinch.

you know how easy it is get drugs already? anyone on this forum could walk down the street and get crack in like 5 mins, doesnt mean this forums full of crackheads
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:41 AM   #32
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You can be the best damn parent in the world and give the best of everything to your child. But you can't control them.
How many people on this site live with their parents still and pop e and get stoned or snort rails while their parents aren't even aware of any of it?

I know I sure have. Get high at school, snort rails before going out to a club and then shove a few e/ketamine pills down my throat...am I a delinquent? Absolutely not, hell I've never even had a parking ticket...Just shit I tried since it was available directly in front of me and I was curious which led to me being a rec user until I finally quit all that shit.

My parents didn't fail shit at raising me. They told me countless times drugs are bad. I just wanted to do it cause I could. But if there's a way that acts as a stepping stone to get started for new users (retarded vending machine), then yeah that's a little fucking stupid to me.
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your concerns are so suburban soccer mom. they are just ignorant and fly in the face of all evidence given on the subject.

crackheads will smoke crack. like heroin users will use needles. providing them pipes and needles saves millions. these folks are die hard users. they aren't quitting until they die. i'd rather them have clean shit to use then spreading diseases.

go downtown. i've worked downtown. it's no fun walking into stairwells and seeing a dude shoot up. it's no fun seeing needles everywhere. and as bad as a full on junkie is. go check out what a full on junkie looks like with various diseases. the ones that actually look like a walking dead zombie covered in sores. you don't even wanna be 50 feet of a person like that.

that's what this type of program helps prevent. we got first responders and various folks who have to deal with that shit at ground level. i'm sure they'd prefer less junkies with aids too.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:32 AM   #33
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i wonder if there's a section in the vending machine to put old/broken pipes in there as well to safely dispose of them and keep them off the streets.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:15 PM   #34
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go check out what a full on junkie looks like with various diseases. the ones that actually look like a walking dead zombie covered in sores. you don't even wanna be 50 feet of a person like that.

I'm ok with it. That is the cost of freedom.

You have the freedom to destroy yourself.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:13 PM   #35
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I'm ok with it. That is the cost of freedom.

You have the freedom to destroy yourself.
You're ok with your tax dollars being spent to provide healthcare for these people as well? It's a fundamental tenet of our healthcare system and an obligation as citizens of Canada to provide medical care to everyone regardless of their societal stature. There is no option to ignore these people and simply sweep the problem under the rug. As a taxpayer and citizen, I would like to see our government reducing healthcare expenses, crime, etc while still treating everyone with dignity.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:25 PM   #36
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I wonder what the actual cost to the Government is for these $0.25 crack pipes... I can almost guarantee that it's more than $0.25/each when you factor in the machines, maintenance, replenishment costs, etc. And who gets to cover the difference? We, the honest tax payers do of course... so who comes out ahead here?

1. Crackheads get to live a better, less diseased life
2. Crack dealers get to sell more crack because crackheads now spend the extra money they have on crack instead of pipes
3. Manufacturer of crack pipes

Does anyone on this forum fall into any of those categories?
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:43 PM   #37
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You're ok with your tax dollars being spent to provide healthcare for these people as well? It's a fundamental tenet of our healthcare system and an obligation as citizens of Canada to provide medical care to everyone regardless of their societal stature. There is no option to ignore these people and simply sweep the problem under the rug. As a taxpayer and citizen, I would like to see our government reducing healthcare expenses, crime, etc while still treating everyone with dignity.

There are two choices:

1. Kill them all
2. Help them as much as you can

Of course, society can use shame to discourage that behavior, but being a scumbag is not seen as a bad thing anymore. In fact, most people talk about reducing the stigma of pretty much every "bad" behavior to the point where there will be no such thing as "bad" behaviors. People will just claim they have a "disease" and we will coddle them.

In all honesty, if you're rich, you won't care. Trust me, I used to care so much, but I started working on just making my own life awesome. Now as long as my life kicks ass and I have a ton of fun, I'm totally ignorant to everything and it feels so much better!

tl;dr

Focus on making your own life better and let the government babysit the losers in life.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:49 PM   #38
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go downtown. i've worked downtown. it's no fun walking into stairwells and seeing a dude shoot up. it's no fun seeing needles everywhere. and as bad as a full on junkie is. go check out what a full on junkie looks like with various diseases. the ones that actually look like a walking dead zombie covered in sores. you don't even wanna be 50 feet of a person like that.

that's what this type of program helps prevent. we got first responders and various folks who have to deal with that shit at ground level. i'm sure they'd prefer less junkies with aids too.
thanks for the tip of the stairwells, but I used to work downtown in Stanley park in the sanitation dept which covers the beaches and the trails. ive seen "full on junkies" many times. go take a walk down some trails at 7am and see how many needles you'd need to clean up on a daily basis. take a walk along English bay where all the park benches are, 6-7 am the junkies are still there with needles scattered on the floor. certain spots are so filthy and have "zombied" out addicts just laying there that we would have to have cops assist us just to clean the area.

im also a licensed first responder as well, and ive had to help them before. id love to see less junkies with aids, but I don't think a crackpipe vending machine is the right approach. send them to an insite location, put them in a controlled room with TV's couches, tables and chairs and let them get high while giving them a new pipe each time. it blows my mind that schools aren't allowed to have certain foods in the vending machines - shouldn't that be up to the kid to decide to buy and eat if/what he wants? but crack pipes are okay to sell.

either way, they're gonna get high. new pipe or not, im pretty sure they're eventually gonna get something.

-edit-

multicultural - "focus on making your own life better and let the government babysit the losers in life."

im trying my hardest to make my life as awesome as I can, but when the government has to babysit the deadbeat losers at taxpayers expense...it pisses me off...but its never going to change, all I can do is bitch it out lol
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:59 PM   #39
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im trying my hardest to make my life as awesome as I can, but when the government has to babysit the deadbeat losers at taxpayers expense...it pisses me off...but its never going to change, all I can do is bitch it out lol

Yes but there will always, always be losers. For winners to exist, you need a ton of losers. The winners and semi-winners basically employ the government to use methods to encourage complacency in the poorest people to keep them calm and controlled. Also, the government maintains a monopoly on violence in case they need to put down hostile poor people.

Focus on enjoying your life, taxes are a bitch but it's much better than having poor people invading your life directly.
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:07 PM   #40
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lol you guys acting like theyre selling this at community centers and schools. theyre selling it at a drug resource enter and some place on god damn east hastings. im sure if your in the vicinity of either, your probably already fucked to begin with
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:12 PM   #41
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I wonder what the actual cost to the Government is for these $0.25 crack pipes... I can almost guarantee that it's more than $0.25/each when you factor in the machines, maintenance, replenishment costs, etc. And who gets to cover the difference? We, the honest tax payers do of course... so who comes out ahead here?

1. Crackheads get to live a better, less diseased life
2. Crack dealers get to sell more crack because crackheads now spend the extra money they have on crack instead of pipes
3. Manufacturer of crack pipes

Does anyone on this forum fall into any of those categories?
Strictly speaking, this isn't a Government run initiative.

It's Portland Hotel Society's Drug User Resource Center initiative.

The Society receives Government grants so this is not important to the main point.

The true cost to taxpayers may be conservatively estimated at $5 (according to the article's crack pipe cost estimate).

The distribution of safe crack pipes, like safe needles, is expected to help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis C (according to the article).

The lifetime treatment cost of a single HIV/AIDS patient is conservatively estimated at $1,300,000 (according to Canadian Aids Society).

The taxpayers then benefit if one HIV/AIDS case is prevented for every 260,000 safe crack pipes distributed.

The users and dealers do benefit.

But, I'm not sure that's not important from a fiscal perspective.

What's important is that taxpayers very likely benefit.

I can't say taxpayers benefit with certainty. I also can't say to what degree taxpayers may benefit with certainty.

In the absence of a research study, however, I'm happy to accept that uncertainty in view of the fact that taxpayers will very likely benefit.

I'm one of those people, you're one of those people, and nearly everyone else on this forum is one of those people. And, as one of those people, I'm pleased to see a creative approach to harm reduction.

And at the end of the day, the only alternatives anyone here is presenting is ignoring the problem, which would only lead to it worsening, or a genocidal extermination of drug addicts, which is obviously absurd.

I would love to hear a response since I know you're an intelligent guy.

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Old 02-11-2014, 06:24 PM   #42
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that's what this type of program helps prevent. we got first responders and various folks who have to deal with that shit at ground level. i'm sure they'd prefer less junkies with aids too.
My wife deals with these people every day. They are RIDDLED with diseases. Anything that drops that # is not only a smart investment in public safety, its a financial investment based on healthcare costs.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:10 PM   #43
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the only way to end this homelessness bs is to re-think how we calculate welfare cheques. Everyday I go by 1st ave exist off HWY 1, the same ablebodied guy is there asking for change. He's probably no older than 30 with two working feet and arms. There should be a physical or mental disability written up by a doctor to qualify for welfare. and if the person does have a mental disability, lets open up a "disability center" similar to old folks home using taxpayer / corporate charitable funds for upkeep. the folks who would work at this centre would be the other homeless folk without a disability - non-unionized.

while on this topic - why does low income housing need to be with a million dollar view on false creek? REALLY? I know of people who work cash jobs / so they can keep their 10% of income per month rental unit at olympic village. What is wrong with building a low income only housing say around East 1st or Commercial or Clarke or Kingsway. The multimillion dollar homes should be kept for the rich folk who can afford the property taxes and fund the city for other low income housing projects.

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Old 02-11-2014, 09:00 PM   #44
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Strictly speaking, this isn't a Government run initiative.

It's Portland Hotel Society's Drug User Resource Center initiative.

The Society receives Government grants so this is not important to the main point.

The true cost to taxpayers may be conservatively estimated at $5 (according to the article's crack pipe cost estimate).

The distribution of safe crack pipes, like safe needles, is expected to help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis C (according to the article).

The lifetime treatment cost of a single HIV/AIDS patient is conservatively estimated at $1,300,000 (according to Canadian Aids Society).

The taxpayers then benefit if one HIV/AIDS case is prevented for every 260,000 safe crack pipes distributed.

The users and dealers do benefit.

But, I'm not sure that's not important from a fiscal perspective.

What's important is that taxpayers very likely benefit.

I can't say taxpayers benefit with certainty. I also can't say to what degree taxpayers may benefit with certainty.

In the absence of a research study, however, I'm happy to accept that uncertainty in view of the fact that taxpayers will very likely benefit.

I'm one of those people, you're one of those people, and nearly everyone else on this forum is one of those people. And, as one of those people, I'm pleased to see a creative approach to harm reduction.

And at the end of the day, the only alternatives anyone here is presenting is ignoring the problem, which would only lead to it worsening, or a genocidal extermination of drug addicts, which is obviously absurd.

I would love to hear a response since I know you're an intelligent guy.
You're correct in saying that it is very difficult to determine whether or not an average citizen will benefit from a program like this, which is probably the main reason programs like is even exist in the first place. It is our government's general response to most difficult questions. "We can't say for sure but it's probably to everyone's benefit".
I would be interested to see how many of these aids infected junkies get $1.3 million worth of treatment. I'm fairly certain most of the people who are infected with HIV/aids and live on the street either a) don't know about it, b) are too high to care, c) are too far gone to treat.

What's the most common way for aids/HIV to be transmitted. According to the government, it's Males having sex with Males at 63.6%. Injection drug use accounts for 14%. How come there aren't $0.25 condom vending machines on every street corner on Davie St.?
Source At a Glance - HIV and AIDS in Canada: Surveillance Report to December 31st, 2012 - Public Health Agency of Canada


My point is... Programs like this really don't do much for the general public. It's usually a feel good campaign for someone to say "yeah we are making a difference at other people's expense".

And for those talking about people with mental issues and needing a facility for them, that's exactly what Riverview was. In fact, a large number of people who live in DTES ended up there after Riverview closed. In my opinion, the government should be funding that facility instead of funding safe injection sites and crack pipe vending machines... At least then the people who need help are in a controlled environment, get the care they need and aren't at risk of contracting/spreading diseases which cost tax payers even more money to treat.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:04 PM   #45
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I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:38 PM   #46
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You're correct in saying that it is very difficult to determine whether or not an average citizen will benefit from a program like this, which is probably the main reason programs like is even exist in the first place. It is our government's general response to most difficult questions. "We can't say for sure but it's probably to everyone's benefit".
I would be interested to see how many of these aids infected junkies get $1.3 million worth of treatment. I'm fairly certain most of the people who are infected with HIV/aids and live on the street either a) don't know about it, b) are too high to care, c) are too far gone to treat.

What's the most common way for aids/HIV to be transmitted. According to the government, it's Males having sex with Males at 63.6%. Injection drug use accounts for 14%. How come there aren't $0.25 condom vending machines on every street corner on Davie St.?
Source At a Glance - HIV and AIDS in Canada: Surveillance Report to December 31st, 2012 - Public Health Agency of Canada


My point is... Programs like this really don't do much for the general public. It's usually a feel good campaign for someone to say "yeah we are making a difference at other people's expense".

And for those talking about people with mental issues and needing a facility for them, that's exactly what Riverview was. In fact, a large number of people who live in DTES ended up there after Riverview closed. In my opinion, the government should be funding that facility instead of funding safe injection sites and crack pipe vending machines... At least then the people who need help are in a controlled environment, get the care they need and aren't at risk of contracting/spreading diseases which cost tax payers even more money to treat.
The counterpoints you've raised are very fair.

I, too, would like to see the approximate amount spent on HIV/AIDs patients in the DTES.

Of course, such specific information is not available though I suspect the number is still significant; albeit below average.

Males having sex with males resulting in 63.6% of HIV/AIDs transmission seems too high. I wonder what degree of bias there is in data collection.

Regardless, sexual transmission of HIV/AIDs is why I support public sexual health programs.

And, it still seems likely that the net benefit of the crack pipe vending machine is positive.

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I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.
How would you respond to the endless supply of information showing institutionalizing people results in them being less able to function in society?

I avidly support reforming the welfare/disability system, but through very different means.

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Old 02-11-2014, 10:38 PM   #47
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I'm still for the idea of labour camps for the homeless.

Get them to dig roads, help build infrastructure for housing and food (no crack). After they complete x amount of years of rehab then they can try and rejoin society with skills they've acquired.
yeah because doing all those things require no skills at all. honestly, are you guys in this thread trolling or just sheltered babies who think the homeless are just a bunch of free loaders who we can use as cheap/free labor

there might be a few people who are in the downtown east side by choice. but i have actually taken my time to talk to a few and every time i talked to these people they tell me the same thing. they came from homes that i wouldnt wish upon my worst enemy or some sort of physical or mental disability that they have had no support to help deal with.

dont forget that the homeless are still people too. someones son, daughter, father, mother etc etc. turning you back on these people will just make the problem bigger and bigger. its a massive social issue that needs to be dealt with.

/semi rant
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:29 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by asahai69 View Post
yeah because doing all those things require no skills at all. honestly, are you guys in this thread trolling or just sheltered babies who think the homeless are just a bunch of free loaders who we can use as cheap/free labor

there might be a few people who are in the downtown east side by choice. but i have actually taken my time to talk to a few and every time i talked to these people they tell me the same thing. they came from homes that i wouldnt wish upon my worst enemy or some sort of physical or mental disability that they have had no support to help deal with.

dont forget that the homeless are still people too. someones son, daughter, father, mother etc etc. turning you back on these people will just make the problem bigger and bigger. its a massive social issue that needs to be dealt with.

/semi rant
nah, im not trolling. may seem that way, but im not.

like rsx said, basic labor jobs don't exactly require much skill/knowledge of how to do it. some construction sites will even hire on the spot. im not saying use them for free or cheap labor at all. im suggesting that if there was a camp/shelter program where they could stay, somewhere away from dtes, and could help them with the initial detox stage and work on construction sites or other basic labor jobs. a job they can do and get paid for every 2 weeks (get a few local companies to sign up and be part of a program to help the homeless).
have a portion of their checks go towards keeping the camp/shelter running while they can keep the rest in a new bank account to help them kick start their new life...but monitor their money, give them a portion of it as an "allowance" kinda deal.
have some strict rules, show up to work, no drugs what so ever. make it like a prison...only they're there on their own free will and can leave whenever they want. they sign out when they go to work, sign in when they get back, allow them to do random drug tests etc. basically motivate them and make it so they want to be there instead of outside in the cold.
a basic labor job is enough to start a new resume with some basic skills for once they leave. once they/people who run it all feel as if they've "graduated" their little program (possibly a year). help set them up with a basic apartment...fuck you can furnish an entire house from the craigslist freebies section...may not be classy, but its better than nothing for some. they'll have cash in a bank, a job, a place to live, and a chance to start fresh. they can use the skills they learned from their current job and try to apply else where so a new person can take his spot.

from there they can rebuild and start a new life. if they choose to resort back to drugs, oh well, they'll lose everything they just worked hard on. at least you can say you/they tried to help them.

ive talked to some of them as well when I worked at Stanley park. they were always more than willing to give me their life story and say the whole "don't do what I did" speech. a lot of them would love to have a second chance if they could.

instead of offering them safer ways to use drugs, offer them a chance to get rid of the habit all together. granted it cant be applied to everyone, but I think more people would rather get a 2nd chance than use safe.

but that's just my view on shit.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:07 AM   #49
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^I agree with this idea in principle, but it would require significant government funding and volunteer employer participation. Securing those two requirements would be borderline impossible.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:39 AM   #50
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good luck giving a junkie a shovel and telling them how to dig. even before you do all of that. they gotta kick the habit. im sure if it was just as easy as moving to nowhere and getting a basic labor job to kill the addiction they would. but its never that simple.

im sure there are a lot of people that can be hooked on any drug and still hold down a simple job. but these people down there are beyond that and need more help than that to kick it.

it doesnt look like the government is willing to setup adequate facilities or funding to do that just yet. So just doing something as small as providing a clean site to do drugs or providing them clean equipment helps just a little bit, its worth it. the budget for that is a mere drop in the bucket compared to what our government foolishly spends its money on.
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