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Old 04-24-2014, 11:34 PM   #1
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Temporary Foreign Workers Program Government suspended for restaurants

Restaurants barred from using Temporary Foreign Worker Program - The Globe and Mail

I think this is a big issue. Unemployment is already high as it is, and a lot of these programs are taking jobs away from youths and teenagers.

It starts off with fast food and labour type jobs, soon it becomes white collar jobs like IT , accountants etc. ie. the RBC story.

I just want to bring awareness to this issue of how many corporations are abusing this program to reduce costs and increase profits.

Governments should stay out of market intervention for stuff like this. If companies pay higher market wages, it will draw more workers to apply to those jobs. Supply and demand will usually take care of itself.

Quote:
Employment Minister Jason Kenney has put an immediate moratorium on allowing restaurants to hire temporary foreign workers after a series of abuse allegations.

The announcement is the largest change to a federal program gripped by controversy over the past year after employees across the country have complained publicly about being replaced by temporary foreign workers. Mr. Kenney said in a statement Thursday evening that his earlier effort to sanction specific outlets wasn’t working and that wider action was needed.

MORE RELATED TO THIS STORY

McDonald’s halts use of foreign workers
CAMPBELL CLARK TFW abuses expose Harper’s hollow commitment to free markets
Service sector sees spike in temporary foreign workers
“There remain serious concerns regarding the use of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program in the food services sector,” he said.

The decision took businesses by surprise, as they decried a lack of consultation and said the move would force some employers to close shop.

“I knew a shoe was going to drop, but this was both shoes. This is a far bigger reaction than what I thought,” said Dan Kelly, head of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

“In the minister’s province of Alberta many small businesses will teeter on [the brink of] survival based on this decision.”

Mr. Kenney said his office will not process any new or pending labour market opinion applications in the food sector. The opinions are required before permission is granted to hire a temporary foreign worker. As well, any restaurant that has already obtained an LMO but hasn’t yet filled the position will be unable to do so.

“Abuse of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program will not be tolerated,” Mr. Kenney said in the statement.

Ian Tostenson, president of the B.C. Restaurant and Foodservices Association, said he agreed the program needs review but that Mr. Kenney has overreacted. “There are a lot of small business people in British Columbia who are wondering what this means for them. It’s chaos. We would have really liked a heads up.”

Mr. Kenney had hinted earlier this month that he was considering such a move.

He told CBC Radio in British Columbia last week that it was not an “unreasonable question” to ask about limiting the use of the program for fast-food restaurants.

“I am skeptical that food-service jobs in urban areas with still relatively high youth unemployment need to use this program,” he said at the time.

Those comments got a cool reception from the food industry, as well as the governments of British Columbia and Alberta, where the program is more commonly used by businesses to fill job vacancies.

Alberta Labour Minister Thomas Lukaszuk told The Globe and Mail last week that the government should not be “picking out one industry and making an assumption there is a problem.”

Mr. Kenney’s move comes on the same day that Tim Hortons announced it would inspect each of its franchises that employ temporary foreign workers after reports that two stores belonging to the Canadian coffee chain breached labour rules.

The chain confirmed Thursday that it had terminated franchisee control of locations in Fernie, B.C., and Blairmore, Alta., after foreign workers in the neighbouring Rocky Mountain towns claimed they were denied overtime pay. About 4,500 temporary foreign workers are employed by Tim Hortons, most of them in Western Canada.

With 5 per cent of its 90,000-strong work force made up of foreign workers on temporary permits, Tim Hortons spokeswoman Olga Petrycki said the company is expanding an existing audit program. A new mandatory independent audit will start “over the next few months.”

McDonald’s Canada put a stop to all new foreign hires on Wednesday after criticism that the fast-food giant was favouring foreign workers over Canadian applicants.

Three McDonald’s locations in Victoria were blacklisted by the federal government last week and forbidden from using the temporary worker program after applicants complained they were being turned away and locals were offered fewer hours than foreign workers.

Earlier this week, two long-time waitresses at a small pizzeria in Weyburn, Sask., complained they had been fired and replaced by foreign workers. Weyburn has been cited in the past as an example of the type of small Canadian community dealing with worker shortages and best served by the temporary work permits.

Mr. Kenney questioned last week whether the food-services sector should be eligible to use the program. Tim Hortons and McDonald’s collectively employ nearly 9,000 temporary foreign workers. A study released by the C.D. Howe Institute on Thursday was sharply critical of the federal program and blamed it for a higher youth unemployment rate in Western Canada.

The report also argued that a new $275 user fee imposed in 2013 was not high enough to serve as an incentive for employers to seek out Canadians. The report noted that fees in the United States and elsewhere are much higher for similar programs, and part of the money raised is used to fund programs to train domestic workers.

The Temporary Foreign Worker Program has grown quickly under the Conservatives. The Globe and Mail reported this week that use of the program by the service sector rose sharply between 2006 and 2012, the most recent date that statistics are publicly available.

The number of approved foreign worker positions in accommodation and food services in that period grew from 4,360 to 44,740 – an increase of 926 per cent, according to public data from Employment and Social Development Canada.

Workers under the program are approved for two-year stints, although many can work for longer by stringing together multiple jobs and immigration initiatives. Foreign workers also cannot be paid minimum wage, but must be remunerated at a rate closer to the market average.

NDP employment critic Jinny Sims said she welcomed the government’s decision.

“We had been calling for a moratorium and I’m glad the government is finally listening,” she said in a statement. “But a moratorium on its own is not enough. We need an independent review of the whole program to end its abuse. The minister has the responsibility to ensure that people living in Canada get first access to Canadian jobs.”

Mr. Kelly of the CFIB had just returned from a small Indian restaurant in Scarborough when he heard the news. A spokesman for Canadian business, he has taken a large public role during the debate on temporary foreign workers as many businesses fear public shaming.

The owner of the Indian restaurant told him during his supper that he needed nine cooks, with skills learned only in India. The restaurateur currently has five cooks, of which four are in Canada on temporary permits that expire next year.

“I doubt that a restaurant like that would survive if this moratorium lasts more than a few weeks,” Mr. Kelly said.
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Old 04-25-2014, 02:26 AM   #2
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Nice to see the CEOs are squirming even a little bit

McDonald's Canada CEO calls foreign worker controversy 'bullshit' - Canada - CBC News
Exclusive
McDonald's Canada CEO calls foreign worker controversy 'bullshit'
In a recording of a conference call to franchisees, CEO John Betts rails against CBC stories

The CEO of McDonald's Canada has branded recent criticism of its use of temporary foreign workers "bullshit" in a conference call to franchisees that was given to the CBC.

His remarks from earlier this week came before federal Employment Minister Jason Kenney announced an immediate moratorium on the food services sector’s access to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program late on Thursday, as a result of CBC Go Public's inquiries.

Listen to McDonald's CEO conference call

Three McDonald's franchises in Victoria and a pizza restaurant in Weyburn, Sask., are at the centre of program abuse allegations involving Canadian employees alleging foreign workers were given priority work status or more hours.

A federal investigation into McDonald’s use of the temporary foreign worker program was launched recently, after a Go Public story about a Victoria McDonald’s franchise.

McDonald's franchisee could face charges over foreign workers
Temporary foreign worker program abuse to bring heavy fines
Temporary Foreign Worker Program sanctions target 3 employers
McDonald's foreign worker practices halted in face of investigation

Tuesday's conference call was scheduled to address franchisees' concerns that McDonald's Canada had decided to put its temporary foreign worker program on hold, while a third party conducts an audit on its use of the plan.

McDonald's initiated that independent audit in response to the government investigation.

In a recording of the call given to the CBC, McDonald's Canada CEO John Betts discusses recent CBC stories on the company's use of temporary foreign workers and his resulting meeting with federal Employment Minister Jason Kenney.​

"This has been an attack on our brand. This has been an attack on our system. This is an attack on our people. It’s bullshit OK! I used those words when I described my conversation with the minister last week. He gets it."

John Betts

The CBC has been given a recording of McDonald's Canada CEO John Betts calling stories about its temporary foreign worker policy 'bullshit'. (CBC)

Betts says he was "incredibly impressed" with the minister, adding, "He really knows his stuff. And I’ll say he knows his stuff from a business person’s perspective."

Responding sarcastically to how his company has been portrayed in the media, Betts said, "The fact of the matter is we are a big bad company, corporate, you know, bad company and these poor maligned employees are who they are."

"Yes, they are disenfranchised. Some of them don’t work for us anymore. But in the scheme of things, it doesn’t matter."

"This story has been brewing for a lot of years. And you know at the end of the day we just happen to be the business that got tapped into it and we weren’t the first. Obviously, RBC was," said Betts, referring to a previous CBC Go Public story.

"The reality is that we have learned internally that we haven’t done a very good job in a lot more places than we thought and that’s just us on the phone talking."
Franchisees fear losing staff

One franchisee in Alberta expressed concern about employees — temporary foreign workers — who won't be able to get their work permits renewed.

"When that happens, every single foreign worker in Alberta is going to leave us. They are scared. The restaurants are going to fall apart. This is how it is on the ground," said the franchisee.

'We are a big, bad company...and these poor maligned employees are who they are'- McDonald's Canada CEO John Betts, responding sarcastically to how the company has been portrayed in the media

Another franchisee was worried about money he had just paid to Actyl, one of the international recruitment agencies McDonald's pays up to $2,000 for every worker they bring in.

"I paid Actyl Group probably $14,000. So am I out the $14,000 now and the whole nine yards?" asked the franchisee.

The restaurant chain's vice-president of human resources Len Jillard, also taking part in the conference call, is heard replying, "Believe me, we are doing everything we can to get everything back on the rails."

Later on, Betts comments "This is a big one for us and it is critical because of our brand image and because of your need to make profits and our systems need to take care of our people."
'Element of truth'

Betts spends much of the conference call railing against the CBC's coverage of the controversy — but admits there is truth to the stories.

"Here’s the kicker. The kicker is there’s an element of truth in each of these stories," Betts said.

McDonald's accused of favouring foreign workers

McDonald's Canada has agreed to a third-party investigation of all locations that use temporary foreign workers. (CBC)

"What we’ve got to do is fix what we have in the restaurants concerning the temporary foreign workers.

"But what we’ve also learned is that we have other opportunities in the people area that we also need to take care of. Violations of labour law. And those are the kind of things that suddenly become compounded because we have another issue over here, that’s very emotional in Canada."

With regard to the company's decision to halt its Temporary Foreign Worker Program, Betts told concerned franchisees that, "In dealing with the government, the smartest move was to pre-empt their move in terms of suspending us."

"I think the relationship we build with the minister here is a politically astute one to be taking. Because they're feeling the heat big time before this story broke and now it's bigger and bigger," he went on.

"They need to see us as partners in this as a brand that can help them make some progress on this and at the same time give us an opportunity to clean ourselves up."

At no point during the recording does the CEO mention hiring Canadians instead of temporary foreign workers or go over the rules of the federal Temporary Foreign Worker Program.
Moratorium on food services industry

As a result of CBC Go Public's inquiries, federal Employment Minister Jason Kenney announced late Thursday an immediate moratorium on the food services sector’s access to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.
Jason Kenney

Employment Minister Jason Kenney has announced a moratorium on the food service sector's access to temporary foreign workers. (CBC)

"Our Government has been clear: Canadians must have the first chance at available jobs. We have repeatedly warned employers that the Temporary Foreign Worker Program must only be used as a last and limited resort when Canadians are not available," said the minister in a statement.

The minister said that despite an ongoing investigation into serious allegations of abuse of the program, the suspension of LMOs and the blacklisting of the employers in question, there remained serious concerns relating to the use of temporary foreign workers in the food services sector.

"As a result, I am announcing an immediate moratorium on the Food Services Sector’s access to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.

"Accordingly, ESDC [Employment and Skills Development Canada] will not process any new or pending LMO applications related to the Food Services Sector. In addition, any unfilled positions tied to a previously approved LMO will be suspended."

The moratorium will remain in effect until the completion of the on-going review of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program.
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Old 04-25-2014, 02:44 AM   #3
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I think by that logic, outsourcing and call centre jobs should be given priority to Canadians.
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Old 04-25-2014, 02:54 AM   #4
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Old 04-25-2014, 04:39 AM   #5
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I cant stand the Cons and their foreign worker program it's bullshit

And I'm glad its been getting more attention recently but so much more is needed
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Old 04-25-2014, 05:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StylinRed View Post
I cant stand the Cons and their foreign worker program it's bullshit

And I'm glad its been getting more attention recently but so much more is needed

It's gonna be a busy time at my workplace. I work for the feds in the TFW program.

There are two sides to each story. I agree 100% that the TFW program must scrutinize and even put employers in position to face criminal prosecution if they abuse the program and foreign workers.

What is happening now is just the tip of the ice berg. As per the CBC article, do not surprised if you hear employers in food service industry face fines of up to $100,000 and up to a five year prison term. No joke. No bullshit. Employers that abuse the program will face justice.

Having said that, there are employers who have a legitimate need for foreign workers because there are a shortage of Canadians that have the education and experience needed for high skilled jobs.
Examples: geologists, civil engineers, senior executives in mining companies, visual effects artists, software developers, etc. have labour shortages across the country based on labour market data that the federal government staff and the public can view. It is called Labour Market Information (LMI).

Some foreign workers have the education and international work experience in jobs in the mining industry, digital media, and film and entertainment to fill jobs that Canadians do not.
Some examples are DJs , actors in TV shows like Almost Human and movie studios for the film Godzilla hire American actors, camera operators, and directors because these foreign workers have the talent needed to do the job. We are talking about a billion dollar film industry in BC.

There are employers that hire low skilled workers like food counter attendants, kitchen helpers and some high skilled jobs like cooks who are abusing the program. No doubt.
The feds are going after the bad employers with a big stick using fines and criminal prosecution.

These employers like Tim Hortons and McD's are bullshitting when they say they do not abuse the program, abuse foreign workers by taking their overtime pay back in cash, or give more work shifts to "harder working" foreigners instead of Canadians who
work hard and show up to work on time.

Like I said, this is just the tip of the ice berg.

The government will put some of these employers in food service industry under criminal
investigation and prosecution.

No bullshit.
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Old 04-25-2014, 06:06 AM   #7
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ok, I don't understand the problem here, can someone give me cliff notes?

What do they mean by employers abusing TFW program?
Are they allowed to pay lower wage for non-Canadians? If not, I don't think hiring non-Canadian is going to be beneficial for McDonald's or Tim Horton's.

It's not like McDonald's were purposely trying to avoid hiring Canadians...or were they? If so, what's the benefits for them to hire foreigners?
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Old 04-25-2014, 06:15 AM   #8
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I just want to bring awareness to this issue of how many corporations are abusing this program to reduce costs and increase profits.
Reduce costs? So they do save money on wages I believe?

Well I would say that's too bad but it's been going on forever. I don't understand why we only target on service industry like McDonalds, Royal Bank, etc.

Look at how many things are made in China, although Canadians know how to manufacture their products, they would rather make them in China to cut the cost. They're essentially cutting Canadian factory workers.

Same goes for foods, we import a lot of foods from the states and everywhere around the world.
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Old 04-25-2014, 06:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timpo View Post
ok, I don't understand the problem here, can someone give me cliff notes?

What do they mean by employers abusing TFW program?
Are they allowed to pay lower wage for non-Canadians? If not, I don't think hiring non-Canadian is going to be beneficial for McDonald's or Tim Horton's.

It's not like McDonald's were purposely trying to avoid hiring Canadians...or were they? If so, what's the benefits for them to hire foreigners?

Abusing workers can mean for example Tim Hortons franchise owner driving the foreign workers to their bank to ask
the to cash overtime cheques to pay that cash back
to the owner. Check out cbc.ca. The Timmy's owner got caught with this abuse on the foreigners.

Timpo, if you hire a foreigner to do a job, high skilled like a cook, senior mining exec, or low skill job like a hotel clerk, owner must pay the same average median wage paid to a Canadian for
that job. No lower wages.

In fact, employers must pay for airfare and help provide or find housing for
the foreign workers. It actually costs more to hire a foreign worker for low skilled jobs because of airfare to bring them into Canada.

So why do some employers like McD's give more work
shifts to foreign workers than Canadians? Do they work harder and are more reliable than Canadians?
That can be disputed. The McD's managers in Victoria franchises make
that argument for foreigners based on work
ethic and reliability.

Criminal investigations and prosecution for employers who intimidate foreign workers and do
other illegal things like take overtime pay in cash back from
foreigners are happening.


Who said that the government is just going after abusive employers?

If an immigration lawyer is illegally charging workers a fee for say $20,000 to
work in Canada, TFW program has staff who work with the RCMP to investigate these lawyers too.

Foreign workers can call anonymously
the TFW TIPS line to report employer and third party lawyer abuses of the program.
Just google Temporary Foreign Worker
Program to get more info.
A busy day at TFW. Sigh.
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Old 04-25-2014, 07:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timpo View Post
ok, I don't understand the problem here, can someone give me cliff notes?

What do they mean by employers abusing TFW program?
Are they allowed to pay lower wage for non-Canadians?
They CONS originally allowed employers to pay tfw's 15% less in wages but iirc when this matter began getting media attention Harper had removed this benefit starting 2014

But the issue isn't just with fast food joints they were/are doing it with mining they recently wanted to import a force of Chinese miners who didn't know anything and needed to be trained by locals who would get to keep their jobs until they trained these guys the company claimed a lack of miners available locally which was bs, luckily media attention and unions got involved
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Old 04-25-2014, 08:19 AM   #11
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I understand certain positions lack qualified candidates. Where a specialized individual is required to work that job and they may need to go outside of Canada to hire those individuals. But the abuse comes from hiring foreign workers (philipines / mexico) to do regular retail jobs at Mcds / subway / tim hortons that should be going to Canadians.

The other downside to this besides higher unemployment is that the money that goes to these foreign workers goes back to their home country and not into the canadian economy. so we shell out EI and welfare for the unemployed, or have kids not being able to find jobs instead of having them work, and then spending that money into canada and helping push demand into the economy.
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First it starts with retail jobs, eventually it may be your job that the foreigners may take. I just dont think it's a good policy for the Canadian Economy with companies abusing it.
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Old 04-25-2014, 08:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
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They CONS originally allowed employers to pay tfw's 15% less in wages but iirc when this matter began getting media attention Harper had removed this benefit starting 2014

But the issue isn't just with fast food joints they were/are doing it with mining they recently wanted to import a force of Chinese miners who didn't know anything and needed to be trained by locals who would get to keep their jobs until they trained these guys the company claimed a lack of miners available locally which was bs, luckily media attention and unions got involved

Get your facts right, StylinRed. The court case was dismissed last year. The federal government officer who made the decision to approve the hiring of the HD mining workers from China made the right call.

The Canadian miners that HD mining could have hired do not know the mining technique of "long wall mining" used in coal mines. No other mine in Canada has Canadian workers who know this mining technique.

The judge made the ruling that the officer of the TFW program who approved the HD mining application made the right decision.


In this case, the Chinese miners had in depth knowledge of a mining technique for coal mines in Canada instead of the Canadian miners.

Really? The Chinese miners didn't know anything? Hmmm.

HD mining was vindicated with the judge's decision.

B.C. mine's temporary foreign workers case dismissed - British Columbia - CBC News
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Old 04-25-2014, 08:42 AM   #14
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In fact, employers must pay for airfare and help provide or find housing for
the foreign workers. It actually costs more to hire a foreign worker for low skilled jobs because of airfare to bring them into Canada.

So why do some employers like McD's give more work
shifts to foreign workers than Canadians? Do they work harder and are more reliable than Canadians?
That can be disputed. The McD's managers in Victoria franchises make
that argument for foreigners based on work
ethic and reliability.
While I definitely do not agree with the abuse of foreign workers, especially when it comes to forcing people to pay back their OT pay.
I can say that a lot of foreign workers have much better work ethics than the younger generation of kids these days. (Which is the people competing with the foreign workers for retail and fast food jobs).
Unfortunately, a lot of the younger generation these days are being raised with a sense of unrealistic entitlement when it comes to work, they hear stories about their mom and dad's union jobs and expect the same from McDonalds or their entry level retail job, they demand their 15min coffee breaks, they ask for a raise every 6 month, and whenever you ask them to do something slightly more challenging, they reply "thats not in my job description, you will need to pay me more if you want me to do that".
I manage a workforce of about ~150 staff, and about 5-6 foreign work visa, and I can say that those 5-6 employees are by far my hardest working staff.

It is (relatively) easy to teach somehow a skill, however it is not as easy to teach someone good work ethics.
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:10 AM   #15
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Get your facts right, StylinRed. The court case was dismissed last year. The federal government officer who made the decision to approve the hiring of the HD mining workers from China made the right call.

The Canadian miners that HD mining could have hired do not know the mining technique of "long wall mining" used in coal mines. No other mine in Canada has Canadian workers who know this mining technique.

The judge made the ruling that the officer of the TFW program who approved the HD mining application made the right decision.


In this case, the Chinese miners had in depth knowledge of a mining technique for coal mines in Canada instead of the Canadian miners.

Really? The Chinese miners didn't know anything? Hmmm.

HD mining was vindicated with the judge's decision.

B.C. mine's temporary foreign workers case dismissed - British Columbia - CBC News
I had thought the unions appealed that. Didn't realize it ended there

But they're still in court from the steelworkers union, and cherry picking a unique method of coal mining is simply a loophole. Hdmining still required tfws to receivetraining by locals iirc for safety standards and some of the equipment being used.

As I said in the original thread about the mines the company should be forced to train locals to use whichever techniques they desire for the job while using a very limited amount of TFW's (in terms of time and quantity) until locals are trained.

Hdmining was also seeking tfw's at a 30-35% wage cut (that came out during the trial)
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:17 AM   #16
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As I said in the original thread about the mines the company should be forced to train locals to use whichever techniques they desire for the job while using a very limited amount of TFW's (in terms of time and quantity) until locals are trained.
This.
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While I definitely do not agree with the abuse of foreign workers, especially when it comes to forcing people to pay back their OT pay.
I can say that a lot of foreign workers have much better work ethics than the younger generation of kids these days. (Which is the people competing with the foreign workers for retail and fast food jobs).
Unfortunately, a lot of the younger generation these days are being raised with a sense of unrealistic entitlement when it comes to work, they hear stories about their mom and dad's union jobs and expect the same from McDonalds or their entry level retail job, they demand their 15min coffee breaks, they ask for a raise every 6 month, and whenever you ask them to do something slightly more challenging, they reply "thats not in my job description, you will need to pay me more if you want me to do that".
I manage a workforce of about ~150 staff, and about 5-6 foreign work visa, and I can say that those 5-6 employees are by far my hardest working staff.

It is (relatively) easy to teach somehow a skill, however it is not as easy to teach someone good work ethics.
Granted they may be harder workers, but kids make mistakes. If they can't even get a simple basic job then they're not going to last a day when they enter the real world.

If a kid gets fired for pulling some attitude that their parents passed down to them from telling them about unions and shit, then maybe the kids will open their eyes and put them in check.
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:20 AM   #18
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The minister J. Kenney made it clear as per the Temporary Foreign Worker Program website:

Canadians must always be first in line for available jobs


Canadians must have the first crack at available jobs. Am I right, guys?
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:36 AM   #19
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While I definitely do not agree with the abuse of foreign workers, especially when it comes to forcing people to pay back their OT pay.
I can say that a lot of foreign workers have much better work ethics than the younger generation of kids these days. (Which is the people competing with the foreign workers for retail and fast food jobs).
Unfortunately, a lot of the younger generation these days are being raised with a sense of unrealistic entitlement when it comes to work, they hear stories about their mom and dad's union jobs and expect the same from McDonalds or their entry level retail job, they demand their 15min coffee breaks, they ask for a raise every 6 month, and whenever you ask them to do something slightly more challenging, they reply "thats not in my job description, you will need to pay me more if you want me to do that".
I manage a workforce of about ~150 staff, and about 5-6 foreign work visa, and I can say that those 5-6 employees are by far my hardest working staff.

It is (relatively) easy to teach somehow a skill, however it is not as easy to teach someone good work ethics.
while there is truth to this, sometimes the work ethic comes from the fact that if they wont work they get sent back to their home countries. They work hard out of fear. and you underestimate a lot of canadian kids these days. Yes many are lazy and entitled, but many are not. A lot of them are actually very hard working. My dad manages a small business and the kids (17-25 year olds) are all hard working. But then again he tends to hire kids (born in canada) that come from european or asian immigrants because immigrant parents teach their kids better work ethics.



" they demand their 15min coffee breaks" --- you say it as it's a bad thing.
it's this type of thinking that gives unions their powers. Why shouldn't employees be allowed their breaks? We have it as a law for a reason. Too many employers want their employees to be working 60 + hours a week with no workers rights. This is a western country, not some third world sweat shop.

I mentioned in another thread that I hate unions, but they are a necessity because employers will abuse the fck out of workers if unions are not around.

unions gave us things we took for granted such as
"40 hour work weeks"
"vacation entitlements"
"weekends"
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:44 AM   #20
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while there is truth to this, sometimes the work ethic comes from the fact that if they wont work they get sent back to their home countries. They work hard out of fear. and you underestimate a lot of canadian kids these days. Yes many are lazy and entitled, but many are not. A lot of them are actually very hard working. My dad manages a small business and the kids (17-25 year olds) are all hard working. But then again he tends to hire kids (born in canada) that come from european or asian immigrants because immigrant parents teach their kids better work ethics.



" they demand their 15min coffee breaks" --- you say it as it's a bad thing.
it's this type of thinking that gives unions their powers. Why shouldn't employees be allowed their breaks? We have it as a law for a reason. Too many employers want their employees to be working 60 + hours a week with no workers rights. This is a western country, not some third world sweat shop.

I mentioned in another thread that I hate unions, but they are a necessity because employers will abuse the fck out of workers if unions are not around.

unions gave us things we took for granted such as
"40 hour work weeks"
"vacation entitlements"
"weekends"
Not saying there are no good Canadian kids, I've worked with a handful of great hard working kids myself. But just on average, the foreign workers tend to have better work ethics (possibly due to fear, but also the fact that they came to Canada with one intention, and thats to work hard and earn some money for whatever reason it is)

as for the union mentality, well I'm not saying we work people like sweat shops, but at my work we provide a 30min unpaid break on a shift over 5 hours, these kids are coming in asking for 2X15min break on a 5 hour shift, and 2 15s and 1 60min paid break on an 8 hour shift....granted some union jobs offer this, it is definitely not an employment standard.

another mentality that I face working in the retail industry is that (especially for the day time positions), many Canadians are raised with this mentality that "looks down" upon retail and fast food jobs, so when they are working those jobs, their mentality is "how do I get out of here onto something better" (again generalizing, and more true in my current market than other parts of canada). While a lot of these foreign workers are happy and content with retail and or fast food jobs which leads to lower turnover and overall more productivity.

For the record, I work in Fort McMurray managing a retail store, so the market here is very different, the fast food industry predominantly survives on temporary foreign workers.
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Old 04-25-2014, 10:29 AM   #21
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For the record, I work in Fort McMurray managing a retail store, so the market here is very different, the fast food industry predominantly survives on temporary foreign workers.
This is where I would support the use of the Foreign Worker programs, because it's very difficult to find employees in certain rural regions and areas.

But to tell me that you can't find workers in Vancouver, Toronto, Victoria etc. for jobs like Mcdonalds or Tim Hortons? that's clearly a sign of abuse, and justifiably, many Canadians are not happy.




But at the same time, I was having this discussion with a friend about areas like northern BC or Alberta. If employers pay market prices, say X dollars higher than what it currently is, this will attract more people to seek those positions or to get the training for them. Over time there will be more workers and because of a higher supply of workers, the wages will go back down (equilibrium).

But then businesses cant afford to wait that long and such. it's an interesting case for those companies up north.
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This is where I would support the use of the Foreign Worker programs, because it's very difficult to find employees in certain rural regions and areas.

But to tell me that you can't find workers in Vancouver, Toronto, Victoria etc. for jobs like Mcdonalds or Tim Hortons? that's clearly a sign of abuse, and justifiably, many Canadians are not happy.




But at the same time, I was having this discussion with a friend about areas like northern BC or Alberta. If employers pay market prices, say X dollars higher than what it currently is, this will attract more people to seek those positions or to get the training for them. Over time there will be more workers and because of a higher supply of workers, the wages will go back down (equilibrium).

But then businesses cant afford to wait that long and such. it's an interesting case for those companies up north.
Tim Hortons pay $14-17/hr up here for an entry level position, but even that those wages cannot retain local workers.
Their work force here is 90% foreign with minimal english skills.
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Old 04-25-2014, 10:35 AM   #23
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another mentality that I face working in the retail industry is that (especially for the day time positions), many Canadians are raised with this mentality that "looks down" upon retail and fast food jobs, so when they are working those jobs, their mentality is "how do I get out of here onto something better" (again generalizing, and more true in my current market than other parts of canada). While a lot of these foreign workers are happy and content with retail and or fast food jobs which leads to lower turnover and overall more productivity.
A part of the problem I think is that these type of jobs tend to pay lower wages, and many can not afford to have a decent lifestyle working these type of jobs, and therefore people tend to look down on it.

If the jobs paid a little better, it might change. But usually these jobs are near minimum wage, so they will not get as much respect as a job that pays 3x as much. It's just the way it's been for these type of jobs.

I'm sure we would hold a Mcdonalds worker in higher prestige if the job paid $75K a year.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:03 AM   #24
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A part of the problem I think is that these type of jobs tend to pay lower wages, and many can not afford to have a decent lifestyle working these type of jobs, and therefore people tend to look down on it.

If the jobs paid a little better, it might change. But usually these jobs are near minimum wage, so they will not get as much respect as a job that pays 3x as much. It's just the way it's been for these type of jobs.

I'm sure we would hold a Mcdonalds worker in higher prestige if the job paid $75K a year.
That's the whole dilemma of the TFW program. The way I personally see it is this:

- Lots of youth, young people etc. don't WANT to work at Mcdonalds/fast food places; they HAVE to. As in they put in their time, get paid (in order to go to college/uni) and quit the second they find something else that is better. I would know, being a "young person" who took a food service job to make ends meet for a couple of months while waiting for my gov't position to open up.

- As a result, turnover rates are very high. This is bad for the business.

- This results in businesses using the TFW program to hire people from other countries, who WANT to work at McD and will stay for the duration of their work term (usually 2-4 years).

- Most businesses have no choice but to hire TFWs because the turnover rate is low, TFWs tend to work harder (as they want to get citizenship, if that is still possible now (I doubt it)), and they save money on training and wages. But MOSTLY, because TFWs don't complain, ever. They work hard, work on holidays/weekends, rarely ask for days off, etc.

The argument is that businesses are taking away Canadian jobs in the food service/hospitality sector, but think about it... the average young person does not want to work at one of these types of places for more than a year or so. With our education system, young people with the skills can easily get a better job, with more prestige and more way elsewhere.

They (and by "they" I mean the NDP and Labour Ministry) say that these business should raise their wages to be more competitive, but there is a whole sector of people who are against raising the minimum wage, which, IMO, is the ONLY way to "fix the problem" of TFW program abuse. But nobody wants to do that, as if it's a criminal thing to pay someone enough to get by in the area where they live. The rhetoric behind that idea is that these McJobs are supposed to be temporary and hardworking, educated Canadians should NOT be using a McJob as their career. Kinda messed up, eh? The way I see it, it's one big vicious circle that forces businesses to hire TFWs instead of young people, many of whom choose NOT to work at McJobs because they can't maintain a cost of living (rent, food, going out, buying a car, etc.) at a job that pays 10-12/hr, especially in Vancouver.

All up for discussion, I suppose.

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Old 04-25-2014, 11:42 AM   #25
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It's not just with low skilled jobs in restaurants which employers apply to hire foreign workers temporarily under this federal program.

There's another program stream called "Agricultural Stream" and "Seasonal Agricultural Workers Program".

Hiring Foreign Agricultural Workers | ESDC

Workers on farms would work on planting and harvesting crops, working with cows and other animals, and insects (beekeepers to get extract honey from the bees).

National Commodity List
•apiary products (Beekeepers, for example)
•fruits, vegetables (excluding legumes), flowers, Christmas trees (including on-farm canning/processing, greenhouses/nurseries)
•sod
•tobacco
•bovine
•dairy
•duck
•horse
•mink
•poultry
•sheep
•swine


There is indeed a shortage of Canadian workers in certain sectors of our economy like farming.

Canada has formal agreements with Mexico and Caribbean nations to have their workers work on farms here. It's good business for the farmers who need to address a worker shortage and for foreign workers who want to make a better living relative to their jobs back in their home country:

Seasonal Agricultural Workers Program.

Hiring Seasonal Agricultural Workers | ESDC

These farm employers are legit.

Here's an example of foreign workers in Latin American countries like Nicaragua working in this type of job. Honey bee, apiary work is common in that country as I've been told by employers. There is a shortage of Canadians who have the experience and skills to work with bees:

Beekeeper Helper - Meadow Lake, SK - Job Posting - Job Bank


Do people seriously think that Canadians, especially in an expensive city like Vancouver, would want to do hard physical labour on a farm planting and harvesting crops, or working in unsanitary conditions with cows for $12/hour??

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