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Old 06-14-2014, 10:10 PM   #1
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Thoughts on BlackFish/Whales etc in Captivity?

Seen some really ignorant stances on the subject recently mostly through friends of friends, was wondering what other people thought

Obviously BlackFish was a documentary basically highlighting the worst aspects and practices of the industry. But many people obviously used it as a rallying point or it "opened their eyes" to what was going on.

I was recently told that If i was so ok with it, how would I like it if someone came and kidnapped me, put me in a small cell and had "aliens" gaulk at you all day. Thought about it and came to the point that -all mammals- would feel that change. From Killer whale to Squirrel they would be sad, be different, go crazy, in the exact same scenario. They know enough to realize what has happened. So where should you stop?

With that said, i'm on the side of all or none basically. I understand that orcas and dolphins are very intelligent compared to a bear or coyotes but for me, it's just as sad to see a bear or wolf confined than the Killer whales. Your argument then could be numbers. Thing is, most of the people who trumpet closing Sea World etc do not know the number of Orcas out there. I've read numerous sources quoting the numbers at "No less than 50,000"

50,000 is quite a population. If there are 100 in captivity I feel that the benefits that having Aquariums, Seaworld, etc. have far more benefits than negatives to the public. Most of the people i've talked to who are most adamant about it have all been west coast type, upper middle class, who have probably been on the ocean a few times, seen the whales in person, etc. Places like Seaworld provide a means for people who may have never even seen the ocean see Killer Whales in person, people who aren't privileged enough to have seen them. So out of the millions a year who go to Seaworld, if one child grows up to be a marine biologist or something of the ilk, inspired by seeing the whales or gaining an interest from a show goes on to create or invent something, or even just through their promotion "saves" 30 whales. Worth it no?

I've done quite a bit of wild life work through BCWF as well as a hunting and fishing club i'm a part of such as willow habitat for moose, wood duck boxes, tests on our clubs cabin lake for surveys, etc. Being lucky enough to have grown up always going out hunting, fishing, being in the outdoors with wild life I've got a huge appreciation and love for all animals and I still strongly believe the benefits far outweigh the downsides
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:46 PM   #2
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What benefits, I'm curious, do you feel there are, to having large animals in captivity in what is essentially the size of a prison cell for them.

For an animal that is hugely migratory, and has a "normal" range of thousands of kilometers of ocean that they call "home" it's tantamount to someone telling you that you may live in a 150sq ft apartment, that it's normal, and that you're not allowed to leave it.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:48 PM   #3
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I don't believe in the capture of any animal.

With great high res footage of creatures in the wild, zoos and aquariums are not needed. If one wants to study these creatures, go to them, not the other way around.

Children aren't as naiive as we make them out to be. If we didn't have stupid songs and books about zoos and shit, kids wouldn't miss it. Make it a thing of the past.

When I was a child, the only thing that stuck in my mind about zoos was the horrible sight of seeing this polar bear at Stanley Park Zoo doing a pattern of walking to and fro the same way a thousand times. He looked so sad and miserable. He reeked of, "Shoot me now, PLEASE!"

Thank god they got rid of the zoo. I'm sure every kid had the same reaction. Those animals were probably reincarnated humans whose previous life was that of a murderer or rapist.

At Sea World, they put on a damn good show, but in the end, it's all about making money off the backs of creatures in captivity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are hundreds of excuses for having zoos and aquariums. And as long as people go these places, they will continue to exist. Can't change that, but I refuse to take part in it.

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Old 06-14-2014, 10:49 PM   #4
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:51 PM   #5
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^really?

Are we talking Moby's Dick?
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:08 PM   #6
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50,000 is quite a population. If there are 100 in captivity I feel that the benefits that having Aquariums, Seaworld, etc. have far more benefits than negatives to the public.
There are 7 billion people in the world. That's quite a population, what's the big deal if we put a few million in concentration camps?

What are these benefits of having aquariums, exactly? I'm genuinely curious, because I feel like I've been ignorant to the contribution of these facilities for far too long.
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:43 PM   #7
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my stance against Seaworld is that they are a for-profit organization who have no interest in educating the public on the truth or improving the livelihoods of wild populations

sure, it would be great if 1/100 kids become a marine biologist from going to Seaworld, but personally, my most inspiring trips as a kid weren't to VanAqua.... they were to tidepools and observing the ecosystems there
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:57 PM   #8
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What benefits, I'm curious, do you feel there are, to having large animals in captivity in what is essentially the size of a prison cell for them.

For an animal that is hugely migratory, and has a "normal" range of thousands of kilometers of ocean that they call "home" it's tantamount to someone telling you that you may live in a 150sq ft apartment, that it's normal, and that you're not allowed to leave it.
If they are bred in captivity as most of the sea world whales are they do not know anything other than captivity.

Like I said, if whales should be released then so should everything else. The benefit is SEEING these animals. Seeing them in person, knowing they exist and maybe caring about them more than they would without.
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:01 AM   #9
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If they are bred in captivity as most of the sea world whales are they do not know anything other than captivity.

Like I said, if whales should be released then so should everything else.
Why not go one step further and ban any form of pets? I have two dogs, two cats and an aquarium full of fish. While the dogs are outside animals (read: they spend the day roaming outside, then sleep at the foot of my bed at night), they're still technically as much "captives" as the fish in my tank or the orca at Seaworld.

Not being entirely serious with that comment, but you have to realize that it quickly becomes a slippery slope by saying everything should be released.
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:05 AM   #10
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So if whales should, why not bears? Elephants, etc? Sites say 54 whales are in known captivity. These were issues before a documentry told people how to think.
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:23 AM   #11
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I don't really classify Sea World as an aquarium due to the shows, etc that they put on for profit. On the same token I don't think that rescued animals that are unable to be released into the wild are the same as animals captured and then bought into captivity.
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:45 AM   #12
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Don't like zoos or aquariums. Prefer to have them in a nature preserve, if anything.
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:11 AM   #13
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Why not go one step further and ban any form of pets? I have two dogs, two cats and an aquarium full of fish. While the dogs are outside animals (read: they spend the day roaming outside, then sleep at the foot of my bed at night), they're still technically as much "captives" as the fish in my tank or the orca at Seaworld.

Not being entirely serious with that comment, but you have to realize that it quickly becomes a slippery slope by saying everything should be released.
Can you imagine what kind of impact banning pets would have on this planet? A billion dollar industry gone overnight? Think how many mouths (human) we could feed if all those dollars got diverted.

Think of how many churches could be built wth all that money (not serious at all, LOL). Hookers and blow (hmmmm.......).

I'm not a pet owner, so I cannot say much more. What can I say? I'm alergic to cats, dogs, dust, and hairy things (it's on file as such, lol).

Why have pets when you have kids? or is it, why have kids when you have pets?

Yeah dogs and cats are domesticated. Tell your dog, Lomac, that it can leave at anytime............. it'll be like fuckthatshit........ I like my life. The owner, not so much. Hee hee.

As for the born in captivity comment, throw the young one into the wild and stop the bleeding. Let nature handle it.

Remember that whale that kept losing its baby (stillborn). In a way it was a better sentence for it than a life of captivity for itself and further generations. Let nature handle it.

Humans had no right to do this to another sentient being in the first place.
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Old 06-15-2014, 02:21 AM   #14
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I support the educational benefits that our aquarium provides for children and the infirm and low income families as they wouldn't be able to experience/learn about these creatures... our aquariums also garner a great deal of research as well as care for creatures which would die in the wild.

However places like Sea World, which also provide the same benefits, seem to be more in tune with circuses of old, which abuse the creatures in their care to perform tricks so they can make a buck... and as with circuses of old legislation needs to be introduced to provide a level of care to the beings and prevent abuse while allowing them to continue on with business.

This recent attack on aquariums is just the current 'it' thing these people seem to forget that there is a large list of animals that are locked up for our amusement or nourishment or vanity, which they probably support in some shape or form...

again we need to ensure a level of care and respect to these beings but not stop what we're doing entirely, due to the benefits, just because of some hipsters chasing the current 'it' thing.
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Old 06-15-2014, 06:10 AM   #15
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1. they SHOULD build bigger "aquariums" for these whales as the resources are available.

2. we treat humans worse.

3. humans need to be violently reminded and physically policed and enforced to make sure they obey the laws of treating other humans "properly".

4. humans still break that law, all the time.

5. whales are not classified as people, therefore they will don't fall under the same laws as humans, therefore they will not be treated or enforced as such, regardless of what your values or thoughts are.

6. maybe we need to update the laws?

just stating facts.
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Old 06-15-2014, 10:20 AM   #16
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So if whales should, why not bears? Elephants, etc? Sites say 54 whales are in known captivity. These were issues before a documentry told people how to think.
This is all, largely, an ethics argument. If you don't understand ethics, then you may not understand the issue.

While I agree that a masterfully edited documentary can manipulate how someone feels about something, I would not say that they tell people how to think. Yes, these were issues before, but do you know why we didn't know about them? Because then Seaworld wouldn't make any goddamn money if we did. Documentaries like Blackfish shed light on an ugly world that people with money do their best to hide from us.

As for other animals in captivity, I agree with Lomac that it's a slippery slope and this is where we need to take ethics into consideration. Why are these animals being kept captive? Are they part of a breeding program for endangered species? Are they part of an educational program so that we can better understand these animals so that we don't cause further harm to their species? Some zoos do that and they generate money for their breeding and education programs by charging admission to see the animals. Seaworld captures whales and puts them in tiny tanks where they live a short, depressing life PURELY for entertainment. You can argue that it's educational, but as you may have seen in Blackfish, a lot of what they told the audience was not true of whales in their natural habitat. You go to Seaworld and you get to learn about whales in captivity, not about whales as a species.

As for the argument that these whales are born in captivity and know nothing else, how about Josef Fritzl? He kept his daughter and all of the children he fathered with her in their cellar for their entire lives. They didn't know anything else, so what's the problem? ETHICS.
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Old 06-15-2014, 10:35 AM   #17
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Technology has come a long way since the 50's. Animal tracking has become much more sophisticated and reliable.

The whole concept of zoos / aquariums is outdated and needs to go. There's so much information available online through documentaries, journals and personal blogs. Hell I'm sure there are smartphone apps / games that educate even the dumbest kid.

It's one thing to see a large animal in a small enclosure but why are they entertaining me? How am I learning about natural whale behaviour when I see one leaping in the air to catch a well placed fish?

The last time I went to the Vancouver Aquarium was in 1993. I have no plans to ever go back.

I'm not a hipster trend chaser. Animals deserve their freedom as they are not bound by the laws that we are. If there's one thing FB taught me, it's that people don't know shit about animal behaviour so clearly places like Zoos & Aquariums aren't doing their job.
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Old 06-15-2014, 11:00 AM   #18
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The notion of banning animals which have been domesticated does not relate to the issue of keeping wild animals in captivity. You can't raise wild animals from birth in a domesticated environment and expect them to behave - they will revert to their wild nature no matter how much contact they have with humans. Places like wildlife parks provide a means for an injured wild animal to be brought back to health so I take no issue with those places. Zoos on the other hand sure little purpose or benefit to the animals.
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:44 PM   #19
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I've gone whale watching several times and seeing them free and roaming was a much more exhilarating experience for me and my family than it was at an aquarium or zoo.

Watching the whales strategically get their food as a pod vs watching someone throw lil pieces of fish into their mouths after they do roll over tricks is not something that can be compared.
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Old 06-15-2014, 12:49 PM   #20
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99% of the population does not have access/funds to go whale watching.
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Old 06-15-2014, 01:45 PM   #21
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99% of the population does not have access/funds to go whale watching.
You're right...life is good at the 1%....

$91/adult ticket at Seaworld vs $100/ticket at a local Whale Watching event....
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Old 06-15-2014, 01:48 PM   #22
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Whale watching in Tofino was great!!!
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Old 06-15-2014, 01:51 PM   #23
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It costs $50 @ seaworld currently (50year anniversary) but wow that's too high (the non-special price), wonder what they charge for school field trips
$32-36 for a whale watching tour in san diego

Its only $15 for kids 12 and under @ our Aquarium, $20 for students and $29 for adults including taxes
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Old 06-15-2014, 06:04 PM   #24
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All animals are animals.

I don't understand why some people just care so much more about one type versus another. Some of the same people up in arms "poor Tilikum" be stuffing KFC chicken down their throats and eating "high end baby veal" downtown.

"No you can't breed dogs for food you are so fucking inhumane" but "please i'd love that prime rib medium rare, better not overcook that shit because I wanna taste that cow's fucking blood - that's what makes it delish".

We are an apex predator. Top of the food chain. That means we decide what happens. But instead of worrying about poor couple of whales in captivity wah wah wah, why not worry about the billions of other animals that are bred for consumption and kept treated in the most inhumane way possible. Fuck, why not care about actual people, like the ones being locked up in prison over petty drug crimes in a 4x4 cells or millions of people living way below the poverty line in disease ridden enviroments due to systematic rape by other nations? Fuck those guys right? Why? Oh right, cause they ain't as cute as that beluga whale....

Zoos are amazing places for kids and adult alike because most of people will never have the means to travel the world to see these animals in their natural habitat. Seeing different animals is like taking a trip around the world - you can't tell me there is no educational value on being able to cross those imaginary country lines for normal every day folk and inspiring kids about learning more about nature and animals. That's a small price to pay for education and scientific advancements, just like how animal testing and trials are necessary. Do you go and protest against chemical testing on mice? Do you even know the kind of shit we do to mice? lol... But yeah, no one gives a fuck

I hate those people bitching and moaning about how terrible something is only when they watch a 50 minute documentary and suddenly they become the most animal moral person in the world. People only really start to give a shit when an animal looks cute and cuddly, or big and fearsome. If its an ugly animal, no one will give a fuck

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Old 06-15-2014, 06:15 PM   #25
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i wouldn't say a 6 hour drive to tofino for whale watching or the upper fraser river estuary for salmon run is as accesible as our local aquarium for school children

that said, I do believe documentaries already do a great job in sparking interest in marine biology...although it doesn't have the same impact on a child as seeing one up close or being able to poke at sea stars
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