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Old 07-17-2014, 10:49 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by xpl0sive View Post
multiple news agencies have confirmed that the Ukranian/Russian airspace has been declared a no-fly zone for a while now. Whoever plotted that flight path is either an idiot or did so on purpose
Sources? Legitimately interested, I can't find anything so far.
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:52 AM   #27
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It's all over TV right now. flip to any news channel. They clearly stated that the area was a no-fly zone
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:55 AM   #28
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I don't think that's true at all.

Lufthansa just announced that they are diverting 4 planes scheduled to fly through that airspace today... same with Virgin. No way that airspace was "closed"
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:55 AM   #29
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xpl0sive - Spoiler your post with the images, and atleast give a warning about the fact they are pretty graphic.

The images don't bother me, but there are some younger, and I am sure there are more squeamish members on the boards who would rather not see that shit. Hell even I could have done without seeing it (although I would have clicked on the spoiler anyway).
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Old 07-17-2014, 10:55 AM   #30
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got goosebumps when they showed the passport IDs
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:01 AM   #31
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It's all over TV right now. flip to any news channel. They clearly stated that the area was a no-fly zone
New agencies often "clearly state" things, especially when news is just breaking. They aren't a source.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:25 AM   #32
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Crucial Air Route Goes Through Ukrainian Airspace - Business Insider

In regards to flight route.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:42 AM   #33
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Note it only applies to American carriers / pilots. FAA doesn't have jurisdiction over rest of the world unlike what the world seems to believe.

The FAA's Notice Prohibiting Airline Flights Over Ukraine - James Fallows - The Atlantic

Many crucial questions about the tragic/disastrous apparent shootdown of the Malaysia Airlines flight in Ukraine are still unanswerable. Who did it? Why? With what warning? Or repercussions?

But at this point one question can be answered: Did aviation authorities know that this was a dangerous area?

Yes, they most certainly did. Nearly three months ago, on the "Special Rules" section of its site, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration put out an order prohibiting American pilots, airlines, charter carriers, and everyone else over whom the FAA has direct jurisdiction, from flying over parts of Ukraine.

Here is how the "who this applies to" part of FAA NOTAM 4/7677 looked, in the ALL-CAPs typeface of many FAA communications and in the language the FAA uses to say "this means YOU!"

A. APPLICABILITY.
THIS SPECIAL FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATION (SFAR) APPLIES TO THE FOLLOWING PERSONS:

1) ALL U.S. AIR CARRIERS AND U.S. COMMERCIAL OPERATORS;

(2) ALL PERSONS EXERCISING THE PRIVILEGES OF AN AIRMAN CERTIFICATE ISSUED BY THE FAA, EXCEPT SUCH PERSONS OPERATING U.S. REGISTERED AIRCRAFT FOR A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER; AND

(3) ALL OPERATORS OF U.S. REGISTERED CIVIL AIRCRAFT, EXCEPT WHERE THE OPERATOR OF SUCH AIRCRAFT IS A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER.

And here is how the "these are the areas to stay out of" part of the order was written, everything specified as Longitude/Latitude coordinates:

(D), NO PERSON DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH (A) MAY CONDUCT FLIGHT OPERATIONS IN THE PORTION OF THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) FIR WITHIN THE FOLLOWING LATERAL LIMITS: 454500N 0345800E-460900N 0360000E-460000N 0370000E-452700N 0364100E-452242N 0364100E-451824N 0363524E-451442N 0363542E-451218N END PART 1 OF 4. 23 APR 22:30 2014 UNTIL 1504270001. CREATED: 23 APR 22:16 2014

FDC 4/7667 (A0012/14) - null AIRSPACE SPECIAL NOTICE UKRAINE 0363200E-450418N 0363418E-445600N 0363700E-443100N 0364000E-424400N 0361600E-424700N 0340000E-424800N 0304500E-434100N 0303200E-441500N 0302400E-444600N 0300900E-455400N 0322500E-454900N 0324700E-455400N 0330600E-455600N 0332700E-455900N 0332900E-THEN ALONG THE CRIMEA BORDER TO 454500N 0345800E.

Until only a few years ago, most FAA notices—of restricted air space, of special weather hazards, of other areas-of-concern—were promulgated in this same indecipherable Long/Lat form. Now the FAA distributes most information on U.S. airspace via easily understandable graphical overlays. For instance, its Special Use Airspace site, which you are supposed to check before every flight, gives you a color-coded illustration of all active military airspace, restricted zones, etc, at any given time. Here is how part of it looks right now, mainly showing active "Military Operations Areas" in the South. This is a screen shot, but on the real map you can click on each one to see its vertical limits. For instance, those large ones over northeastern Mississippi go from 8000 feet upward, so we were able to fly under them in our recent visits to the "Golden Triangle" cities in the same area.

I have not yet seen a map that plots the Long/Lat points of the Ukraine no-fly order onto the route the Malaysian plane flew, and where it was apparently shot down. When I learn of one, I will provide an update. (Credit to Jad Mouawad of NYT for seeing this notice before I did.)

The point for the moment: the FAA "Special Rules" section tells U.S. pilots and aircraft not to fly over trouble spots ranging from North Korea to Yemen to Syria to Iraq. And since last April it has told them not to fly over certain parts of Ukraine.

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Sources? Legitimately interested, I can't find anything so far.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:52 AM   #34
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Air Traffic map of the area and video etc at the link.

Was MH17 flying through warzone to save fuel? | Mail Online


Was MH17 flying through warzone to save fuel? Planes in area of crash site pictured flying away from Ukraine as questions are raised as to why they were travelling over country

By Darren Boyle

Published: 17:26 GMT, 17 July 2014 | Updated: 18:37 GMT, 17 July 2014

Air accident investigators are planning to inspect the proposed flight plan lodged by pilots on board Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 to see if they flew over a warzone to save fuel.

The 17-year-old jet was shot down over eastern Ukraine despite British, European and US commercial aircraft being warned against using the airspace since April.

One of the major questions is whether the Malaysian flight crew received the warning from flight safety officials about the risk to safety.

One aviation expert revealed: 'Malaysia Airlines, like a number of other carriers, have been continuing to use it because it is a shorter route, which means less fuel and therefore less money.'

The jet was travelling at 33,000 feet at 490 knots when it disappeared from radar screens while approaching the Russian border.

It is believed that the Malaysian Airlines pilots ignored several warnings to avoid the airspace over Ukraine. It is understood the Malaysian Airline jet used the Ukrainian route to save fuel as diverting north or south would have taken longer.

In April, the European Aviation and Safety Agency warned: ‘Taking into consideration the recent publication by the Russian Federation of a series of notices to airmen (NOTAMs) modifying the Simferopol FIR which is under the responsibility of Ukraine, and their intent to provide air traffic services (ATS) within this airspace, the Agency draws the aviation communities’ attention to the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights.

‘Due to the unsafe situation where more than one ATS provider may be controlling flights within the same airspace from 3 April 2014, 0600 UTC onwards, consideration should be given to measures to avoid the airspace and circumnavigate the Simferopol FIR with alternative routings. ‘

On July 8, the State Aviation Administration of Ukraine closed its airspace to civilian aircraft after rebels shot a military transport aircraft that was flying over 20,000 feet.
The radar route of Malaysian Airlines plane MH17

The restriction warned commercial aircraft against using Ukranian airspace.

A Notice to Airmen, seen by Mail Online warned: ‘Due to the potential for conflicting air traffic control (ATC) instructions from Ukrainian and Russian authorities and for the related potential for misidentification of civil aircraft, UK aircraft operators are strongly advised to avoid, until further notice, the airspace over Crimea, the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.’

The EASA supplied airlines with a list of alternative routes avoiding the conflict zone.

The US Federal Aviation Authority had also banned its aircraft from the Crimea region.

The suspected shooting down of a large passenger plane while flying at altitude presents airlines and their passengers with an extremely serious new development in air travel, according to aviation experts.

Passenger plane 'shot down on Russia/Ukraine border'
The European Air Safety Authority issued airlines with a number of alternative routes avoiding Ukraine

The European Air Safety Authority issued airlines with a number of alternative routes avoiding Ukraine

Norman Shanks, the former head of group security at airports group BAA, and professor of aviation security at Coventry University, said there had been suggestions airlines had been warned to avoid the route because of the violence below.

But many carriers continued to use it because it was shorter and therefore cheaper.

He said: 'It is a busy aviation route and there have been suggestions that a notice was given to aviators telling airlines to avoid that particular area.

'But Malaysia Airlines, like a number of other carriers, have been continuing to use it because it is a shorter route, which means less fuel and therefore less money.

'I expect the area will be declared a no fly zone and aircraft will have no choice but to take a different, longer route.'

Prof Shanks said it was 'extremely unusual' for political disputes to spill over and endanger the lives of civilians travelling in commercial flights in the skies above.

And he suggested those behind the shooting 'deliberately' targeted a passenger plane as it would have been obvious from its appearance that it was a commercial aircraft and posed no military threat.

He said: 'This is probably the first time this has happened in recent history. The aircraft was flying at such a height that it is unlikely to have been a military aircraft.

'You would be able to tell it was a civilian aircraft not a military aircraft with the naked eye because of the jet plumes behind it.

'This would almost certainly have to be a deliberate act, for whatever reason - we can only speculate.

'It should have been quite visible to people on the ground that it was a civilian aircraft, by the size of it and the shape of it. Anyone who has looked at a civilian aircraft or large military aircraft will know the difference.'

He said the plane's black box could contain vital clues to help piece together what the pilots knew during their final moments in the cockpit.

But he warned that tracing the flight recorders could be very tricky as they are probably 'now in a war zone' somewhere in the Ukraine.

He added: 'The pilots and passengers could well have been totally unaware that this missile was heading for them.'

If today's incident is confirmed as a deliberate act then Ukraine airspace could well be closed down, meaning diversions for UK carriers who currently fly to and over the area.

‘This could be a very serious development,’ said David Kaminski-Morrow, air transport editor of Flightglobal magazine.

He went on: ‘If reports are true, we are not talking about small-arm fire but serious weaponry. Normally even if planes fly over a war zone they can go high enough for the conflict not to be a worry.

‘Any decision about the opening or closing of Ukranian airspace will be a matter for the Ukrainians. It could well be that part or all of that airspace will now be closed.

‘Also, individual airlines, including UK carriers, could decide to detour around Ukraine.’

Mr Kaminski-Morrow continued: ‘It's really quite incredible that it should be Malaysia Airlines involved in this, after what happened earlier in the year.

‘This is not a small airline on a faraway route. This was a major airline flying from a European destination to a capital in the Far East. There must be serious concerns about how the airline can recover from this.

‘There will obviously be political as well as aviation concerns from all this. This will run and run.’
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:59 AM   #35
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Some more info
What We Know So Far About the Passenger Jet Allegedly Shot Down in Ukraine
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Old 07-17-2014, 12:56 PM   #36
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damn, more justification for more sanctions against Russia. This is going to get ugly....
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:10 PM   #37
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Translated:

Quote:
Message from rebels:
AN-26 plane was just shot down in the Torez area, it went down near the "Progress" mine. We warned them not to fly in our skies. Here is a video proof of it being shot. It went down behind slagheap, no houses damaged. No civilian casualties. There is also information about the second plane shot down, possibly Sukhoi jet"
Not 100% confirmed.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:30 PM   #38
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The downing of the Antonov-65 is not in question from what I've seen....just how it was brought down. It happened Monday.
Ukraine suspects Moscow shot down military plane near Russian border, saying aircraft was too high for rebels? weapons | National Post

Kiev also reports that two of their SU-25 fighter jets have been targeted, one downed on Wednesday.

Kyiv accuses Russia of shooting down Ukrainian fighter jet with air-to-air missile | National Post
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:32 PM   #39
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Ukraines foreign minister is blaming pro-russian ukrainian separatists on CNN currently

CNN/US is saying separatists or russia (but they think russia) CNN won't even mention Ukraine as a possibility
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:32 PM   #40
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damn, more justification for more sanctions against Russia. This is going to get ugly....
The ones Obama set for Russia yesterday were pretty bad apparently. Not sure if this is related to that? Put on CIC's hat.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:47 PM   #41
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Ukraines foreign minister is blaming pro-russian ukrainian separatists on CNN currently

CNN/US is saying separatists or russia (but they think russia) CNN won't even mention Ukraine as a possibility
Because zero evidence points to the Ukraine. You want CNN to make stuff up. Also CNN has not said who shot the plane down.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:49 PM   #42
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As an aside Israel is using this news to cover their breaking of their "humanitarian ceasefire" agreements to launch their ground offensive


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Because zero evidence points to the Ukraine. You want CNN to make stuff up. Also CNN has not said who shot the plane down.
CNN was speaking hypothetically on the possibilities of who brought the plane down (it's not even confirmed that it was shot down) and in their musings they still wouldn't suggest Ukraine

however a guest reporter did so just now (suggesting they don't know where the missile came from if one did be it ukraine, separatists, russia)

Last edited by StylinRed; 07-17-2014 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:07 PM   #43
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As an aside Israel is using this news to cover their breaking of their "humanitarian ceasefire" agreements to launch their ground offensive

the ceasefire was only for 5 hours I believe.

It has been confirmed the plane was shot down.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:16 PM   #44
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Russia issued this NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) at 0000Z - approximately 10 hours before the flight took off.

V6158/14 NOTAMN
Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04023E095
A) URRV B) 1407170000 C) 1408312359 EST
E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF
RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS
CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320


This was the flight's ATS flight plan:
N0490F310 ARNEM UL620 SUVOX UZ713 OSN UL980 MOBSA DCT POVEL DCT
SUI L980 UTOLU/N0490F330 L980 LDZ M70 BEMBI L980 PEKIT/N0480F350
L980 TAMAK/N0480F350 A87 TIROM/N0490F350 A87 MAMED B449 RANAH L750
ZB G201 BI DCT MURLI DCT TIGER/N0490F370 L333 KKJ L759 PUT R325 VIH
A464 DAKUS DCT



The bolded sections are what are applicable. Though the flight was planned to go along that route, it planned to at FL350 (35,000 feet). Additionally, according to ADS-B data from FlightAware and FlightRadar24 the aircraft was last reported at FL330, above the approaching closed airway and thus already in a position to comply with the NOTAM.
Regardless, from my understanding the segment in question is in Russian airspace while the airplane went down in Ukraine. It hadn't even gone that far.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:25 PM   #45
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what in the fuck

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Old 07-17-2014, 02:34 PM   #46
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the ceasefire was only for 5 hours I believe.
yes but the agreement was that Hamas would only accept the temporary ceasefire if it wasn't a ploy for Israel to prepare a ground offensive and Israel agreed and said to suggest that it was a ploy is ridiculous...but lo and behold


Quote:
It has been confirmed the plane was shot down.
oh? i must have missed that was watching the gaza coverage
damn wonder how this is going to play out now, wonder if we'll see an international ground offensive against separatists
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:44 PM   #47
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I hate notams like that. Says surface to 320. Is that for the last airway, or for all of the above. So vague, and so easily misinterpreted. Personally I'd read it as surface to 320 on all the routes listed, but could easily be the other way around.

Either way, disappointing event for sure as I heard it minutes after landing on an overseas flight. Scary, and also very bad luck for Malaysian airlines.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:54 PM   #48
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Phew! Thank goodness I'm 36 so I'm too old for the draft!
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Old 07-17-2014, 03:16 PM   #49
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Phew! Thank goodness I'm 36 so I'm too old for the draft!
Aww snap, we're the same age? How come I don't got P-p-car
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Old 07-17-2014, 03:20 PM   #50
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High res pictures from the crash site (no body pics);

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