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Old 07-19-2014, 10:47 PM   #151
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I want the Dutch army to go in there and wipe out these rebel asshats!

I dunno why the Dutch or Malaysia haven't been more outspoken or threaten war.

If there were 150 Americans on board. You betcha an invasion would be sent in to secure that crash site.
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Old 07-19-2014, 11:00 PM   #152
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It's a bad situation and a situation which I believe even Putin has no control over. Most of these pro-Russian militia's are independent from each other with no one supreme leader controlling them. Putin and the Russian government might get some of them to abide to a cease fire but others will continue to fight despite this incident and I believe things will continue to escalate in that region.

And I fault the EU for letting this situation get out of control. It's in their own back yard but yet EU leaders have looked the other way and continue to look at the US to do something because no one wants to to get their hands dirty and spoil their relations with Russia because of exports that are too valuable to the EU. After this incident, it's time for leaders like Merkel to step up to the plate and start going after Russia with severe sanctions.
He has lots of control because he is arming them. The BUK missile takes 6 months of training to use so some random rebel could not have used it. The rebels are in constant contact with the Russian military. Putin could close the boarder and stop supplying the rebels. That would but a big hurt on the Rebels.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:17 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by riff raff View Post
It's a bad situation and a situation which I believe even Putin has no control over. Most of these pro-Russian militia's are independent from each other with no one supreme leader controlling them. Putin and the Russian government might get some of them to abide to a cease fire but others will continue to fight despite this incident and I believe things will continue to escalate in that region.

And I fault the EU for letting this situation get out of control. It's in their own back yard but yet EU leaders have looked the other way and continue to look at the US to do something because no one wants to to get their hands dirty and spoil their relations with Russia because of exports that are too valuable to the EU. After this incident, it's time for leaders like Merkel to step up to the plate and start going after Russia with severe sanctions.
Not much will happen. They will go on TV made a statment and that's about it.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:33 AM   #154
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I dunno why the Dutch or Malaysia haven't been more outspoken or threaten war.

If there were 150 Americans on board. You betcha an invasion would be sent in to secure that crash site.
They need evidence to declare a valid war (let's not bring up gulf war 2, WMD)

This war could be massive. It would be west vs east again, not west vs some little backward country... Especially with china warning of not jumping to conclusions against Russia.

What will be interesting is China's response, they've been unhelpful in all world conflicts (i.e. Philippines typhoon couple years ago, nice donation arse hats), but if Russia are proven to have indirectly or directly done this, surely they need to partake in sanctions and potential action as a major player in the free world economy.

With the militants / separatists blocking access, taking black boxes, does this not seem like an indication of guilt? If u did nothing, why would u block access? Let the truth come out.

Diplomacy must lead to any action, this will be long and slow... Putin will never admit anything, and this may end up costing a lot of lives in the long term, either by significant economic sanctions which may lead to a forceful reaction by Putin, or a more immediate support for Ukraine by the west, which may lead to a full blown east/west war.

I am so saddened by all of this and the prospect of more war. We need love, not war. Hard work, not fighting. We need to accept the world we live in, not want to break it up. Accept each other's individual freedoms, and not want to change their ways, etc. but most ppl are fucking idiots, hence all the wars and death... Now of absolutely unrelated innocent people.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:42 AM   #155
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There's never going to be a WWII style war in the near future. The economies of the countries are so intertwined, it wouldn't be in their best interest. You'll most likely see economic sanctions against Russia. Military or "humanitarian" aid might increase to the Ukraine to piss off the Russians. More sabre rattling for a few weeks and then that's it.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:01 AM   #156
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There's never going to be a WWII style war in the near future. The economies of the countries are so intertwined, it wouldn't be in their best interest. You'll most likely see economic sanctions against Russia. Military or "humanitarian" aid might increase to the Ukraine to piss off the Russians. More sabre rattling for a few weeks and then that's it.
There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:28 AM   #157
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There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.


Don't even know how to respond to this...
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:29 AM   #158
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There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.
Jesus Christ you are dumb.
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:18 AM   #159
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Here's some detailed analysis of the SA-11 Gadfly missile system that was 'allegedly' used to take down MH17. Though 30 years old this is a very capable bit of kit and not something that some rebels off the street could operate. The people onboard that 777 would have had no idea what hit them.

Full article: Buk 9K37/ SA-11 Gadfly SAM | SOFREP



For the question of how the United States could tell where and when the radar system was turned on and seeing thermal imaging of the airliner crashing - I can't comment on the assets they may have in the area but it's common sense to know they've had DSP satellite(s) observing the region within hours of the conflict in Ukraine beginning.
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:34 AM   #160
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Gordon Duff's article.
MH17 Working Group Established | Veterans Today

Who is Gordon Duff
Spoiler!
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Old 07-20-2014, 09:18 AM   #161
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Here's some detailed analysis of the SA-11 Gadfly missile system that was 'allegedly' used to take down MH17. Though 30 years old this is a very capable bit of kit and not something that some rebels off the street could operate. The people onboard that 777 would have had no idea what hit them.
To clarify, what I took away from this article is that the original system, developed 30 years ago, was already capable of easily shooting down an airliner.

The author made mention that the system has been refined by the Russian Federation. Obviously, sophisticated weapons (like SAMs) would get improved over time as technology allowed even though their basic design is the same.

So if an original SA-11 was already "very capable" then we can assume newer versions are even better (more accurate, lower failure rates, faster target acquisition and maybe even improved friend/foe detection).
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Old 07-20-2014, 09:30 AM   #162
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Gordon Duff's article.
MH17 Working Group Established | Veterans Today

Who is Gordon Duff
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Wtf is wrong with u? Why is everything a conspiracy which somehow involves Jewish people?

That article was written as the rambling a of a crazy old man.
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Old 07-20-2014, 09:33 AM   #163
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There will be WW3 useless unless the citizen in every each wanting to wage war fight their government tooth and nail to stop it.

The USA debt is 17 Trillion dollars, what do they have to lose by going to war. Even if USA/Europe starts war, China will not stand for the US being in Russia and they will have a coalition with Russia.

War is a racket, look is up. The biggest benefactors of wars are the companies that provides arms to the waring states. And the losers are the lives that are sacrificed in the name of "peace".

And lastly, Sanctions by the US is an act of war. The US put sanctions on Japan and goaded them to attack Pearl Habour because of it.
Looks like someone is trying to out-crazy Charles in Charge
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:08 AM   #164
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Here's some detailed analysis of the SA-11 Gadfly missile system that was 'allegedly' used to take down MH17. Though 30 years old this is a very capable bit of kit and not something that some rebels off the street could operate. The people onboard that 777 would have had no idea what hit them.

Full article: Buk 9K37/ SA-11 Gadfly SAM | SOFREP



For the question of how the United States could tell where and when the radar system was turned on and seeing thermal imaging of the airliner crashing - I can't comment on the assets they may have in the area but it's common sense to know they've had DSP satellite(s) observing the region within hours of the conflict in Ukraine beginning.
I'm not an expert on planes so I thought you could comment on this. Could MH 17's pilots see something that is heading towards them in the plane's radar system even though there is nothing they can do?
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:14 AM   #165
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I seriously doubt a 777 is capable of dodging a missile. It probably depends on how the missile is guided but still the missile is travelling so much faster than the 777 is capable of maneuvering.

And commercial planes don't have what you're thinking of as radar. Its not like in a movie where an unidentified object shows up. Their screen would only have information from other planes equipped with transponders or information relayed by ATC.
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:24 AM   #166
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RT: ?It was Putin?s missile? by Pepe Escobar | 2012: What's the 'real' truth?

take it as you will, its still an interesting read
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Old 07-20-2014, 11:18 AM   #167
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I'm not an expert on planes so I thought you could comment on this. Could MH 17's pilots see something that is heading towards them in the plane's radar system even though there is nothing they can do?
The missile would not have appeared on their radar. It's a far more complex system in military aircraft which are tied in to countermeasures which allows a pilot to ID and defeat threats. As the missle was coming from below them they wouldn't have seen it coming at all.

Note that the SA-11 has IFF capability. Given the complexity of operation of a system like this it's my opinion that there are two options for how this went down:

1 - A trained operator targeted the airliner, saw it visually, ignored its squak ident as a commercial passenger carrier, and fired anyway.

2 - Someone was trained by an operator (Russian or Ukranian) but was unaware or uninformed on how IFF works and fired thinking it was a military transport like an Antonov.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:18 PM   #168
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Or you can try it yourself with a SAM simulator

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Though only covers up to Geckos. It is not as easy as people think.

IFF only applies to military aircrafts NOT civilian aircrafts. Apparently the missile launcher suspected can't tell the difference between civilian and military unless hooked up to the ATC (which I suspect they didn't as they are "non government actors")

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The missile would not have appeared on their radar. It's a far more complex system in military aircraft which are tied in to countermeasures which allows a pilot to ID and defeat threats. As the missle was coming from below them they wouldn't have seen it coming at all.

Note that the SA-11 has IFF capability. Given the complexity of operation of a system like this it's my opinion that there are two options for how this went down:

1 - A trained operator targeted the airliner, saw it visually, ignored its squak ident as a commercial passenger carrier, and fired anyway.

2 - Someone was trained by an operator (Russian or Ukranian) but was unaware or uninformed on how IFF works and fired thinking it was a military transport like an Antonov.

Last edited by godwin; 07-20-2014 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:08 PM   #169
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.... unless hooked up to the ATC (which I suspect they didn't as they are "non government actors")
Touch.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:20 PM   #170
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I blame the ZioAmericans.
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Is it tiring for you guys to keep following the same ZioAmerican news outlets, come on here to regurgitate the same story line, but to find out you were bamboozled once again?
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:19 PM   #171
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:58 PM   #172
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If Russia doesn't accept blame....they should just off every rebel in sight...there shouldn't have being a whole sector in the first place...& only have the Russian army....those pieces of shit.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:03 PM   #173
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Assuming the Russians are heavily involved (which I'm assuming they are), I will officially never touch Russian Vodka ever again. I think more of us should do the same.

Thank God I can buy local Banff Glacier Vodka instead.

Also, while it's commendable that nations will not go to war with each other as easily as in the past, it's sad that it's probably due to economic interests rather than moral interests.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:07 PM   #174
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What if I already have bottles of vodka I brought back from Russia?

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Old 07-20-2014, 09:14 PM   #175
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Satellite data on MH17 should be released: Analyst
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Malaysia and Gaza Victims of Western Aggression
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