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Old 08-18-2014, 10:04 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theurgy1 View Post
When I sent them the email, I clearly indicated that this was a sale from a private individual to another private individual.

Retail doesn't necessarily mean a brick and motor store under the tax designation. It means someone placed an item up for sale and sold it. There is no specification with regards to who sells it, whether it be a licensed retailer or a private individual.
Like i said, that email you copied from CTB did not specify if it was retail (GST/PST registrant) or private sale (non-GST/PST registrant). I would suggest you have them clarify that.

There is a difference in taxes for Transferable Designated Property for specific items being sold through a store versus private when it comes down to registering.

I don't disagree that paying 12% on a used car, scooter, or motorcycle sucks. I'm just stating the facts so that people do not get misled.

Before PST2, it used to be called TDP. By merging the two back to PST is confusing and frustrating for most people to comprehend because it was previously 7% back before HST.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:25 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by bklam View Post
Like i said, that email you copied from CTB did not specify if it was retail (GST/PST registrant) or private sale (non-GST/PST registrant). I would suggest you have them clarify that.

There is a difference in taxes for Transferable Designated Property for specific items being sold through a store versus private when it comes down to registering.

I don't disagree that paying 12% on a used car, scooter, or motorcycle sucks. I'm just stating the facts so that people do not get mislead.

Before PST2, it used to be called TDP. By merging the two back to PST is confusing and frustrating for most people to comprehend because it was previously 7% back before HST.
These are all great questions and here's what I've been able to find.
I would start here:
http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/business/Co...d_property.htm

Quote:
Tax on Designated Property (Vehicles, Boats and Aircraft)
The Tax on Designated Property (TDP) is a 12% provincial tax that applies to the following circumstances from July 1, 2010 to
March 31, 2013:

vehicles, boats and aircraft purchased at a private sale in B.C., and
vehicles purchased, or acquired as a gift, from a private individual or non GST/HST registrant in another province and then brought or sent into B.C.
The TDP doesn’t apply to:
boats or aircraft acquired from a private individual or non GST/HST registrant in another province and then brought or sent into B.C., or
vehicles, boats or aircraft imported into B.C. from outside Canada.
For information about how tax applies to these circumstances on or after April 1, 2013, read:
PST on Vehicles (Bulletin PST 308) (PDF)
So we then go to PST 308.
It has the definitions required about what a "passenger vehicle" is.
In this document it clearly states the conditions to which it applies, which apply to private sale.
The fact that it defines a passenger vehicle as:
Quote:
Trucks and vans that are
larger than ¾-ton, camperized vans, motor homes, buses, ambulances, hearses and
motorcycles with engines of 250 cc or less are not passenger vehicles.
Clearly means that the sale of a 49cc scooter in my specific case, even though it is a private sale, is NOT a passenger vehicle. And is therefore not subject to the definitions outlined in this document pertaining to a private sale.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:34 AM   #28
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But no where does it state that private sale for ....
Quote:
Trucks and vans that are
larger than ¾-ton, camperized vans, motor homes, buses, ambulances, hearses and
motorcycles with engines of 250 cc or less are not passenger vehicles.
...are subjected to 7% PST instead of 12%.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:45 AM   #29
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It doesn't have to.
The base rate for ANY privately sold item is 7% PST.
The exceptions to that base rate are vehicles which are 12%.
From the provided documentation, they define what a vehicle is, in this case my scooter is NOT a vehicle. Therefore it defaults back to the 7% rate.

It's a pretty simple concept to get around.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:53 AM   #30
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I think you're reaching a conclusion based on the definition of passenger vehicle. Here is a direct quote from the PDF you supplied.

Quote:
Vehicles Purchased at a Private SaleIf you purchase a vehicle at a private sale in BC, you are required to pay PST at the rate of 12%
on the purchase price of the vehicle, unless a specific exemption applies (see the section below,
Exemptions).
Please note: For the purposes of calculating the PST, if the seller accepts goods as a trade-in
as part of the consideration, the value of the trade-in may reduce the purchase price of the
vehicle. For more information on trade-ins, see the section below, Trade-ins.
For information on how to pay the PST due on private sales of vehicles, see the section below,
Paying the PST.
Vehicles Purchased from GST Registrants
If you purchase a vehicle from a GST registrant (e.g. a motor vehicle dealer) in BC, please see
Bulletin PST 116, Motor Vehicle Dealers and Leasing Companies.
No where in that quote did it mention passenger vehicle. There is also no where on that document that lists a scooter as an exemption.


Nonetheless, this is a good mature debate and for everyone's sake, I hope i'm wrong.
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Old 08-18-2014, 10:59 AM   #31
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Passenger Vehicle and Vehicle are the same in this document.
This is why they define it in the beginning.
It is also why they refer over to the Bulletin PST 308 document to be used as a reference on what is a Vehicle in this case.

Why define it otherwise?
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:05 AM   #32
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They have to define it other wise because of Luxury Tax. See page 1 of this thread.
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:14 AM   #33
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The purpose of the "exemptions list" is to allow for very specific exceptions, such as "Members of the Diplomatic and Consular Corps" and "Exemptions for First Nations".

It is easier to define what is a vehicle than to attempt to define what is not a vehicle.
They don't have to go ahead and clearly define everything. They just need to state that for the purpose of that document, a Passenger Vehicle or Vehicle is this...
The assumption after that is anything falling out of those parameters are NOT considered vehicle with regards to that document and therefore not subject to the terms outlined.

And yes I agree, this is very good debate.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:52 PM   #34
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Well it appears the Ministry of Finance was pressured by ICBC to look into my ruling and have sent me this particular e-mail:

Quote:
Retraction

This message regards the below correspondence between you and the Ministry:

In reviewing that ruling we identified the following statement as incorrect:

Consequently, PST is due at the rate of 7%.

You may provide this ruling to the ICBC agent at the time that you register the scooter if there is any disagreement on the matter (they should be aware of this, as it is not an unusual matter).

This should read:

However, while a scooter is not a “passenger vehicle”, it is a “vehicle” as defined by the Motor Vehicle Act. All private sales of “vehicles” in British Columbia – including the scooter in question – are subject to PST at the rate of 12%.

We have struck through the incorrect part in the ruling below and inserted the correct information. This message retracts and replaces the ruling sent to you on August 15, 2014. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

This correspondence describes how the Ministry interprets the relevant tax provisions for information purposes only. This response may be impacted by variations in circumstance, subsequent changes to legislation or subsequent court decisions. The Ministry is not responsible for updating this response if there are any subsequent changes to the law. This response is provided as an aid to understanding the legislation and is not intended to replace the legislation.

Rulings and Interpretations Team
Ministry of Finance
Consumer Taxes - Taxes & Rebates
It appears I might have jumped the gun here.
I have sent a followup to this email asking what this means in terms of what I've paid and if I'm required to pay a difference charge.
I mean I'm not to heartbroken over it, the difference is negligible in my mind.
However I'm a bit peeved that they've gone ahead and retracted what I thought was a solid ruling.
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Old 08-20-2014, 06:50 PM   #35
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Well good for you anyways in looking into it. For what it's worth, this is one of the better threads I've seen around here in a long time. I especially enjoyed the debate between OP and bklam. I thought both raised really good points and I has no idea how this would fall out.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:23 PM   #36
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Good find OP.

But we all know paying taxes again on a used vehicle that someone paid taxes on when bought new is fucking bullshit. If I were to buy another high priced item on craigslist in a private sale, like say a $10,000 piano, am I paying taxes? Of course not. Only because you have to register the car through the government agency to the new owner is it an opportunity for them to charge you more money, aka taxes all over again.

I also find it convenient that, before HST, you only paid 7% PST on used vehicles. Then HST came along, and we're paying 12%. Then the HST went away. As if it's not enough of a scam already, ICBC is like "hey, it was so nice getting all that extra cash on used vehicles, so let's not go back to the way it used to be, and charge both taxes on used vehicles."

Fucking bullshit.
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Old 08-20-2014, 11:43 PM   #37
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Firstly.. the taxes are collected by ICBC on behalf for the BC Ministry of Finance. This is not an ICBC thing (for once), it's actually the car dealership lobby that had pressured the government to bump up the tax from 7% to 12% because they are forced to charge both PST and GST and they deemed it unfair competition.

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Old 08-22-2014, 01:07 PM   #38
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I'm glad you were able to get one up on the government because it really is silly that we continually have to pay tax on an asset where tax has already been paid, every time a vehicle is transferred the new owner has to pay tax... doesn't make sense.

Anyhow, having said this I'm quite sure you got lucky here. A perfect storm with the broker not being informed and you having some sort of support paperwork. Out of interest I decided to read the links you sent and from what I gather it doesn't look like your purchase fell within the guidelines for the need to differentiate passenger or non-passenger vehicles as it would only be for situations when a GST registrant is selling a vehicle. Your specific scenario should've fallen under the "Vehicles (Sold as a Private sale in BC)" which if you look In Bulletin 116 (the link you sent), under the Applicable PST Rate on page 4 it clearly shows 12%. There is no talk about passenger or non-passenger, it's just simply vehicles all encompassing.

Good on you for getting the 7% but I wouldn't want someone else going through this process to learn they'd end up having to pay 12%, so guys do your homework to be sure.
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Old 08-23-2014, 01:58 PM   #39
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You evidently haven't read my latest post.
I got a retraction from the MoF and as such have to settle the difference by submitting a casual remittance to pay the outstanding taxes.

It was a fluke and sadly I lost.

I still think that paying 12% taxes on any used vehicle is a load of crap.
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Old 08-23-2014, 02:56 PM   #40
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Can't people still sell vehicles for $10
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Old 08-24-2014, 09:23 AM   #41
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Nope, the government is really cracking down on that.
They tax you on either what you sold it for, or what is considered "fair market value" if you sold it for less.
If it's sold for less, then there has to be a justification as to why it was sold for less.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:47 AM   #42
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Oh man ... am considering buying a used car and just found out that there is no tax advantage if you buy through personal or dealer. This was a quiet thing when we went through the GST PST kerfuffle. 12% on used car is really BS!
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:58 AM   #43
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Advantage with going through personal is being able to write you bought the car for less on the bill of sale.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:29 AM   #44
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When I bought my Husky, I claimed I only paid $500. They asked why, and I said it needed work. They said okay, no major justification needed.

My bike didn't need any work and then I declared its value at $4K when I insured it. I did get a new paint job but it was like a $300 job.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:38 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dragon-88 View Post
When I bought my Husky, I claimed I only paid $500. They asked why, and I said it needed work. They said okay, no major justification needed.

My bike didn't need any work and then I declared its value at $4K when I insured it. I did get a new paint job but it was like a $300 job.
admitting to fraud on a public forum isnt the smartest thing...
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:40 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartanAir View Post
Good find OP.

But we all know paying taxes again on a used vehicle that someone paid taxes on when bought new is fucking bullshit. If I were to buy another high priced item on craigslist in a private sale, like say a $10,000 piano, am I paying taxes? Of course not. Only because you have to register the car through the government agency to the new owner is it an opportunity for them to charge you more money, aka taxes all over again.

I also find it convenient that, before HST, you only paid 7% PST on used vehicles. Then HST came along, and we're paying 12%. Then the HST went away. As if it's not enough of a scam already, ICBC is like "hey, it was so nice getting all that extra cash on used vehicles, so let's not go back to the way it used to be, and charge both taxes on used vehicles."

Fucking bullshit.
Lol @ "unfair competition". These new/used car dealers with all their lobbying bullshit just makes me laugh. Hey, instead of lobbying for laws that ultimately screw the consumer, try fixing your broken industry first. Maybe if the majority of used car salespeople weren't slimeballs, more of us people who actually know about cars wouldn't exclusively go the private route...
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Old 04-08-2015, 12:32 PM   #47
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Agreed.

Paying sales tax on the private sale of a used good, which had already had sales tax paid when it was first sold is just pure double-dipping by the government.

And the new definition of "related individual" is extremely narrow. For example, an Aunt or Uncle now cannot gift a vehicle to a Niece or Nephew. A blood relative is not enough of a "related individual"? What the fuck?
Used car tax will not drop to pre-HST levels - British Columbia - CBC News

"B.C. Finance Minister Mike de Jong says the aim was to level the playing field on all used car sales. (CBC)"

Car dealers have calculated their risk for car storage / inventory when buying cars out OR from trade-in program, and sometimes their offers are just low-balling. If car dealers want to stay competitive, fine... lower your price to play the game. Buying from private sales owner has higher risk too, and that's essentially why they are relatively cheaper.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:38 PM   #48
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This is just gonna encourage even more people to claim lower amounts on the selling price. Plus as a seller, how can they investigate and justify what you sold it for? If I needed the cash quick or I just needed to get rid of it, Im pretty sure they cant force you to pay extra tax to cover the amount the govt shouldve collected if it sold it for market value.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:53 PM   #49
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ICBC can request bank statements if they decide to investigate (which apparently they are doing now). If you claim you sold the car for $1200 but your bank statement shows a cheque deposited for $5000 and the seller has a cheque withdrawl for $5000, you gon have some splainin to do.
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Old 04-08-2015, 11:42 PM   #50
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any updates? is ICBC paying back overcharged tax?
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