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Old 08-27-2014, 07:08 PM   #26
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read this earlier - apparently its not the first kid to kill someone with an uzi. few years ago an 8 year old boy attempted to use one and the recoil put a bullet through his face. at first he was given a semi automatic, pop 1 shot at a time, but something went wrong with it and the father told the instructor to just give him an fully automatic uzi instead.

the police labeled it as a “self-inflicted accidental shooting.”.

the police chief who organized the gun show (kids weren't even supposed to be allowed to shoot), the childs father who was a surgeon, and the instructor who put the gun in his hand were all facing involuntary manslaughter charges. buuuuuut.... 'MURRICA!!! nobody was found guilty and all were let off..
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:39 PM   #27
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Not to sound all CIC, but you don't think that in the event the government really stops acting in the best interests of its people, that it would be extremely beneficial for it's citizens to be armed in maintain order?
Echoing supafamous' sentiments, I see absolutely no advantage for the citizens to be armed if the plan is to organize any sort of uprising to overthrow the government. The sheer firepower of the establishment and their level of training is so incredibly overwhelming that citizens have absolutely no chance against them in any sort of confrontation.

By "establishment", I mean both the military and the police. The military is obviously so well organized, trained, and equipped that any sort of civilian militia will not stand a chance against them, but even with the police, and especially the US police, a large number of departments are benefiting from some sort of military surplus / hand-me-down program where they are receiving military-grade equipment of all kinds to outfit their own officiers. By their nature, police would also be far more organized than most civilian militia groups.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:54 PM   #28
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Echoing supafamous' sentiments, I see absolutely no advantage for the citizens to be armed if the plan is to organize any sort of uprising to overthrow the government. The sheer firepower of the establishment and their level of training is so incredibly overwhelming that citizens have absolutely no chance against them in any sort of confrontation.

By "establishment", I mean both the military and the police. The military is obviously so well organized, trained, and equipped that any sort of civilian militia will not stand a chance against them, but even with the police, and especially the US police, a large number of departments are benefiting from some sort of military surplus / hand-me-down program where they are receiving military-grade equipment of all kinds to outfit their own officiers. By their nature, police would also be far more organized than most civilian militia groups.
I agree with both of you - the government has stopped acting in the interest of its it people for a long time and the current police with its hand-me-down military gear and army with their advanced technology would have a extreme advantage over civilians or militia. But the army and the government is still manned by people, and any sort of tension domestically (both in the US/Canada) would have to be handled very delicately because how connected to the internet our countries are. In the worst case scenario where the people finally actually want to start defending certain rights, or need to protect themselves against the establishment, it would still be beneficial to have an armed militia to hold off attacks or retaliate in order to garner international attention for support. Again, this is the worst case scenario, but trust and faith in the local PD's all around are at an all time low, and with the credibility and corruptibility of both politicians and decision makers even within countries of the Western Hemisphere, it is something to always think about.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:59 PM   #29
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maybe like a 19+ or 21+ w/o parent guardian exceptions law would be nice lol
kidz gotta wait til yer old enough to shoot a gun.. itll be worth the wait.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:01 PM   #30
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Not to sound all CIC, but you don't think that in the event the government really stops acting in the best interests of its people, that it would be extremely beneficial for it's citizens to be armed in maintain order?
In this day and age of warfare, do you really think civilian-owned guns could do anything? When the whole right to bear arms thing came about battles were standing in lines and firing muskets until someone maybe got hurt. Now there's tanks, fighter jets, guided missiles, unmanned drones, high altitude flight, and helicopter gunships that you couldn't have a hope of damaging with a rifle.

Not to mention I'm pretty sure Americans are the only ones with these goofy ideas and everyone else is doing just fine without them.

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From what I've seen here, if you're not pro-gun you're anti-gun. There is no middle ground with the people in this forum. People like to jump on each others throats here even when someone makes a logical and sound argument such as yours. The same trolls will go to every gun-related thread and post their "ban all kids" jokes in there.
Fucking this, and it's even worse with americans. If anyone suggests even the slightest gun-based restriction or control they're instantly "anti-gun" and "taking away our freedoms" or some stupid shit. Which is a terrible argument, lots of people who have guns think they need to be properly controlled (maybe because they respect them and the damage they can do).
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Old 08-28-2014, 12:20 AM   #31
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:04 AM   #33
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NRA: 'Children Can Have Fun At The Shooting Range'

NRA: 'Children Can Have Fun At The Shooting Range'

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WASHINGTON -- Less than two days after a 9-year-old girl in Arizona accidentally shot and killed a gun range instructor who was showing her how to fire an Uzi, the National Rifle Association on Wednesday touted new ways for children to "have fun" at shooting ranges.

The nation's largest gun lobby posted a tweet Wednesday afternoon to its NRA Women account that read "7 Ways Children Can Have Fun at the Shooting Range." The tweet included a link to an article with the same title published on the website of Women's Outdoor News. A little over an hour after posting it, NRA Women deleted the tweet without explanation.

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The story linked in the tweet lists a number of new and colorful targets that it says will engage young shooters who have grown bored with the standard bull's-eye. In describing a pack of zombie targets, the author, Mia Anstine, writes that children "can imagine they're getting rid of the monsters from their nightmares."

But a nightmare is precisely what unfolded on Monday, when 39-year-old Charles Vacca, a range instructor at Bullets and Burgers in northwest Arizona, stood over a 9-year-old girl holding an Uzi. The Israeli-made submachine gun can fire almost 30 rounds per second, according to the manufacturer. Police say the child lost control of the machine gun, and Vacca was shot in the head. He died later that day in a hospital.

The Arizona shooting has prompted a heated national debate over what guns are safe for use by minors, even under supervision. Experts agree that an Uzi was the wrong choice for a 9-year-old girl.

The timing of the NRA's tweet appears to be linked to this debate. Anstine's column about children's shooting targets was posted on August 20, almost a week before the Arizona shooting. Why the NRA would decide to push out this column to the more than 7,000 followers of its "NRA Women" account is unclear. The NRA did not immediately respond to a request for comment.



the following is the article mentioned above:

7 ways children can have fun at the shooting range

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7 ways children can have fun at the shooting range
Posted by: Mia Anstine , August 20, 2014
When children begin shooting, traditional bull’s-eye targets are perfect for working on safety skills. They’re also good for zeroing your rifle before hunting or competitions. However, if children continually shoot the same bull’s-eye target, they can become tired, exhausted or bored. As the boredom sets in, the effort that goes into shooting can deteriorate. In our case we have youth competitors, i.e. LG and friends, who train on a regular basis. Sometimes they want, or rather need, to have fun at the range. That’s when it’s time to introduce other types of targets to change things up, so children have fun at the range.

7 ways children can have fun at the shooting range include:



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Mia & the Little Gal is sponsored by Girls With Guns clothing




Animal shaped targets

These targets are fun to shoot while sighting in for hunting season. They also come in handy in showing new shooters where the kill-zone is on an animal. Targets with images of all sorts of species are offered by Birchwood Casey ($12.70). LG and friends shot paper rabbit, squirrel and deer targets at a recent competition.



Multi-colored targets

VisiColor targets by Champion ($11.49) have bright colors that appear upon impact. They also offer a number of games within their line. One game is a dartboard type. After the bullet hits the paper, colors appear at the penetration site, representing different scoring zones. Shooters can also play “C-H-A-M-P-I-O-N” which is similar to a game of “horse” or “pig” played in basketball. One shooter hits a mark and the next is supposed to follow up with the same shot.



Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 11.53.53 AM



Mutants and zombie targets

We’re not sure if they will frighten young children, or if they can imagine they’re getting rid of the monsters from their nightmares. Regardless, they do look like lots of fun! LG picked out a pack of 8 Darkotic rat and dog targets ($12.70).



Biodegradable clay targets

These bright orange, dome-shaped discs are easy for children to see. They’ll enjoy watching it bust into pieces, and they can hit it 2 or 3 times. These targets are biodegradable. We recommend using these when transitioning from the bench to practice other shooting positions. White Flyer offers biodegradable clay targets ($9.99).



Plinker targets

Plinker targets are great, because they’re interactive. You don’t have to replace your worn out paper target after you shoot. A single shooter can plink at a target continually as it shifts back and forth, up and down or spins, resetting itself.

Children have fun watching little chickens, rabbits or other shapes fall or spin. It’s also rewarding when they hear the “tink” as they hit their metal targets. There are many brands and kinds of plinker targets available, and prices range from $15 to $300. We use the Do-All Steel Dueling Tower Target ($99) and the World of Targets Gallery Resetting Target by Birchwood Casey ($53.40).



Steel round up dueling tree targets
The Do-All Steel Dueling Tower.


Active targets

These targets are placed on the ground, downrange, of course. As your shot hits them they tumble, hop or jump. They are “self-healing” targets so can take hundreds of shots and still keep their shape.

These targets come in an assortment of shapes from various manufactures.

One of our favorites is the Ground Strike Jack Target from Birchwood Casey ($30.30). It looks like a big jumping jack. These interactive targets create challenging shooting opportunities.



Exploding targets

These are on the top of the “fun” list. The resounding “BOOM” and puff of smoke is fun to see, hear and … smell. We shot some with a couple of LG’s teammates and had a BLAST.

Before we used Tannerite’s starter kit ($34.99), we consulted Tannerite directly, as well as explosives experts. We strictly adhered to the instructions to ensure the safest environment for the kids. We had a total of 5 adults supervising 3 children, and everyone had a great time. – you could tell from the huge smiles on everyone’s faces According to the kids, these were the “best of the best” at the range.



youth-shooters-having-fun-at-the-range-photo-by-mia-anstine
LG and her pals having fun at the range.




As you decide what targets your children will shoot at the range, remember, plinking targets are a blast. They’re inexpensive and you can use them time and time again.

Exploding targets can be quite expensive, and you do need to be extra careful. Take the time to adhere to the safety precautions.

Regardless of the target you choose, it is important to remember shooting safety rules. Be safe and have fun.
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Last edited by thumper; 08-28-2014 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:33 AM   #34
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seriously...the NRA is probably up there when it comes to organizations with the lowest IQ and lack of common sense. They are insensitive and brash as fuck...think South Park level, mention gun control and they'll go crazy.

It's almost cartoonish, you would think stupidity and insensitivity at this level only existed in fiction but its almost always on full display when it comes to the NRA.
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:54 AM   #35
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My kids love the range, however its VERY controlled and they can not touch ANYTHING other than a little single shot 22LR that I have for them.
Handing a kid a full auto firearm is out of hand, no matter what country you come from.

I can agree with some of what the US/NRA is doing, but they go way out in left field. EVERY person who wants to posses a firearm should have to do some form of training, mental health check and be of an age that one can be held accountable for ANYTHING that happens with the firearm.
I'm sure my kids will end up owning a firearm or two when they are of the age to do so, but it wont be without years of time behind the trigger learning the safe way to do things.

This poor girl now has this on her mind for the rest of her life. She blew some guys hear open because they figured it would be "fun" for a kid to shoot an automatic firearm
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:38 AM   #36
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Old 08-28-2014, 11:40 AM   #37
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Gun culture in America is insane. Change a couple details like language and outfits and this would look a lot like the blooper reel from a middle east terrorist organization training video. The best weapon citizens now posses is the internet, not guns. Governments and corporations can be taken down with a few keystrokes. It is a shame people don't realise that creating any laws which limit free speech on the internet, including copyright and anti-bullying, help to only strengthen those with power and money at our expense.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro registered and responsible gun ownership. Gun use should be agradual thing like it was with me growing up. I had to prove I was physically and mentally mature, before moving onto something more potent. At the very least, that instructor should have been positioned well behind her, not to the side.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:16 AM   #38
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"Mutants and zombie targets

We’re not sure if they will frighten young children, or if they can imagine they’re getting rid of the monsters from their nightmares. Regardless, they do look like lots of fun! LG picked out a pack of 8 Darkotic rat and dog targets ($12.70)."

If a kid is frightened of a picture of a zombie, I would question the intelligence level of the person who would allow that same kid to handle a lethal weapon. If they want them to learn respect for guns and shooting skills, why not start them off with a pellet gun? Just as fun for the kids, none of the lethality to anything larger than a small bird. Hell, they even make full-auto pellet and BB guns that are fun to shoot if that's what you're into.

That say, I may be a bit biased because I don't see the appeal of full-auto, the accuracy is going to be shit.
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Old 09-07-2014, 11:13 AM   #39
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Old 09-07-2014, 02:34 PM   #40
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The problem isn't children handling guns, a child under the supervision of an adult will have no problem using something similar to a .22 caliber rifle. The issue here is a failure in logic, automatic and high powered firearms do not belong in the hands of children that can't handle them. Regardless of supervision, some adults have difficulty not shooting the ceiling, something that should have run through the minds of the parents as well as the instructor. I've personally handled an automatic rifle, they require strength that a young child's frame does not support.

In summary, this was a lapse in common sense, automatic firearms still belong at shooting ranges, but not in the hands of those who are obviously not able to handle them.

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Old 09-07-2014, 03:46 PM   #41
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The problem isn't children handling guns, a child under the supervision of an adult will have no problem using something similar to a .22 caliber rifle. The issue here is a failure in logic, automatic and high powered firearms do not belong in the hands of children that can't handle them. Regardless of supervision, some adults have difficulty not shooting the ceiling, something that should have run through the minds of the parents as well as the instructor. I've personally handled an automatic rifle, they require strength that a young child's frame does not support.

In summary, this was a lapse in common sense, automatic firearms still belong at shooting ranges, but not in the hands of those who are obviously not able to handle them.
Funny you mention adults shooting the ceiling. I was shooting the Desert Eagle at DVC a while back and against all odds, that thing some how managed to double shoot at once. First shot hit the target cleanly, but as the kickback hit, it some how shot into the ceiling. Never had a gun do that to me before...

But yeah, I don't see an issue with children shooting a gun, provided they're lower calibre or quarter shots. A .22 rifle on single shot sitting on a tripod wont be an issue at all, especially with an adult right there to help out. But a semi/full automatic? Fuck no. It's not necessarily to do with maturity levels; it's all about muscle strength when it comes to holding down the kickback.
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Old 09-07-2014, 04:28 PM   #42
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Old 09-07-2014, 06:27 PM   #43
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Took my 6 & 9 y/o plinking with my .22 earlier this summer - they still talk about it to this day as a highlight to our trip up north. It was their first go around and they got to line up the sights, pull the trigger and watch their clay targets get smashed while I held the rifle.

Teaching a child how to respect a fire arm is important - both my kids know I'm pretty serious about firearm safety and that's how I was taught too. I was pretty proud of them tbh and can't wait to take them on their first hunt with me. Probably will take my 9 y/o grouse hunting this fall to give her an introduction.

Now if only I could teach my labrador to retrieve a real bird.. she does rubber birds flawlessly, but a real bird she sniffs at then runs back to me like a big dummy.
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Old 09-07-2014, 09:48 PM   #44
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:28 AM   #45
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growing up like many boys I had a facsination with guns...few years ago I finally got to go shooting in the bush and it was great
that said,
BB and pellets...why can't they just start with that from below the age of 12?
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:19 AM   #46
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BB and pellets...why can't they just start with that from below the age of 12?
You can still kill someone with a pellet gun, and for the price you pay to get an airgun that actually performs, you can get a cheap, reliable, used 10/22. If you're talking about just establishing the basics of firearm safety, a princess auto special will do just fine, a lot of kids still do start with these.

I'm sure you're already aware of all this, but the proof is on the stickers they put on pellet guns that shoot under 500fps. If you want to practice real accuracy with your kid, a 10/22 is leaps and bounds ahead of any airgun. Regardless, I see your point, ultimately it's up to the parent to decide.

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