Why I will not be keeping my 997 GT3, and why "shitty" cars are better cars...

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by Marco911

You're problem is that you moved from rice burners into a car that is near the pinnacle of the automotive hierarchy. Your 2nd problem is that you are driving your car in the Lower Mainland which has terrible infrastructure for spirited motoring, slow, idiotic drivers and draconian speed laws.

Your third problem is going to be that when you move down from the 911 back into a rice burner, it's going to feel like a cheap poor excuse of a car.

You don't have to drive a 911 fast to appreciate how well engineered and how superbly tuned the chassis is. There are very few vehicles that have that much tuning that has gone into the chassis to make it feel the way it does. It was also a bad decision to move to a GT3 right off the bat. You have to work your way up the 911 line to truly appreciate the heritage and how different each of the cars are. A simple 997C2S would have already offered a large step up in driving performance and excitement from your previous cars. It will also be far easier to live with. Take it from me, I have owned 4 911s and counting. I've driven all the latest BMWs, Mercedes, and Audis and they are nowhere as developed as the 911.

A) I'm not in the lower mainland at the moment, and I would argue that Vancouver does not have terrible infrastructure for hooning around.

B) While I will admit that moving back to a "rice burner" might bring about some feelings of regret for most people, my STI doesn't leave me feeling all that terrible... so I'll probably be okay.

C) I do not agree that you can drive a 911 slow and still appreciate the chassis, maybe if you're some PCA fanboy douche who wears Porsche driving gloves when you fill up with gas etc.

D) You sound like a PCA fanboy douche; "It was also a bad decision to move to a GT3 right off the bat. You have to work your way up the 911 line to truly appreciate the heritage and how different each of the cars are."

E) I have driven other Porsches, I would say the C2S/C4S would have fit the bill slightly better for daily amusement BUT, and this is major BUT, it wouldn't be a GT3. For the extra 20-40K for the GT3 you get a car that offers so much more and will hold value much better. GT3 is to the C2S what an Integra Type R is to a GSR.

F) The performance delta between my E46 M3 and a 997 C2S is negligible.

Meh, the point is that you don't need to buy a Porsche or any other expensive car to enjoy driving... it's not a debate about whether or not the GT3 is the right car for me. I think this thread has more value and appeal to people who haven't had the ability to own multiple Porsche's etc.. aka most normal people who may dream of owning a "supercar" but might wind up eventually feeling the same way I do.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by multicartual

Expensive cars are just for getting pussy and showing off your social status

There actually people out there who enjoy driving. I think they are called car enthusiasts.

[tofu1413]

Maybe Ill just sell you the CRX.... so you can put a B series or even K series in it.

Spoiler!

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

A) I'm not in the lower mainland at the moment, and I would argue that Vancouver does not have terrible infrastructure for hooning around.

Compared to what? The American Interstate system? The autobahn and highway systems in Europe? That's laughable. The lower mainland is clearly under infrastructured with too many left lane hogs and slow drivers making it difficult to sustain >90 mph speeds,.

B) While I will admit that moving back to a "rice burner" might bring about some feelings of regret for most people, my STI doesn't leave me feeling all that terrible... so I'll probably be okay.

The STI is no way comparable to a base 911 much less a GT3. The controls are far too light, the engine/exhaust sound are lacking vs. the flat-6, and after 80 mph, a Porsche will walk away.

C) I do not agree that you can drive a 911 slow and still appreciate the chassis, maybe if you're some PCA fanboy douche who wears Porsche driving gloves when you fill up with gas etc.

That's like saying you can't tell the difference between ultra-high performance tires and all season tires if you don't drive fast. You can certainly feel the firmness of the chassis, and the weight balance through corners and the feel of the road that is transmitted through the seats and steering to your butt and shoulder blades. That requires a tremendous amount of engineering know-how to transmit effectively.

D) You sound like a PCA fanboy douche; "It was also a bad decision to move to a GT3 right off the bat. You have to work your way up the 911 line to truly appreciate the heritage and how different each of the cars are."

And you sound like someone who couldn't keep up with the payments of the GT3 and is trying to rationalize moving back to something more affordable.

E) I have driven other Porsches, I would say the C2S/C4S would have fit the bill slightly better for daily amusement BUT, and this is major BUT, it wouldn't be a GT3. For the extra 20-40K for the GT3 you get a car that offers so much more and will hold value much better. GT3 is to the C2S what an Integra Type R is to a GSR.

So much more, meaning more performance on the track vs. a sacrifice in daily usability and drivability vs. a regular 911. The GT3 is a limited production car for Porsche enthusiasts who want to drive and experience the performance on both a track and the street. A regular 911 is more suitable for 95% of drivers.

F) The performance delta between my E46 M3 and a 997 C2S is negligible.

Perhaps if you just look at 0-60 times, but the performance gap gets larger and larger when you are on the track. The M3 can't corner like a 911 or does not accelerate at higher speeds like a 911 does. Sorry.

Meh, the point is that you don't need to buy a Porsche or any other expensive car to enjoy driving... it's not a debate about whether or not the GT3 is the right car for me. I think this thread has more value and appeal to people who haven't had the ability to own multiple Porsche's etc.. aka most normal people who may dream of owning a "supercar" but might wind up eventually feeling the same way I do.

Supercars are crap to own if its a car you drive every day. Supercars are meant as a 3rd or 4th car, to be taken out when the mood suits you and the conditions are suitable. A regular 911 is a car meant to be driven every day and offers a lot of excitement and the driving experience that an enthusiast cares about. If you have owned/driven one, you notice the flaws in other cars very quickly.

[westopher]

Originally Posted by Marco911

Perhaps if you just look at 0-60 times, but the performance gap gets larger and larger when you are on the track. The M3 can't corner like a 911 or does not accelerate at higher speeds like a 911 does. Sorry.

An e46 M3 CSL put a second faster time at the ring than a 2009 carrera S. Sorry.

[BrRsn]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

C) I do not agree that you can drive a 911 slow and still appreciate the chassis, maybe if you're some PCA fanboy douche who wears Porsche driving gloves when you fill up with gas etc.

[jasonturbo]

Originally Posted by Marco911

Compared to what? The American Interstate system? The autobahn and highway systems in Europe? That's laughable. The lower mainland is clearly under infrastructured with too many left lane hogs and slow drivers making it difficult to sustain >90 mph speeds,.

Oh boy, again you are missing the point, we have the road systems we have, and in something like an ITR you can have quite a bit of fun with them.

Originally Posted by Marco911

STI is no way comparable to a base 911 much less a GT3. The controls are far too light, the engine/exhaust sound are lacking vs. the flat-6, and after 80 mph, a Porsche will walk away.

Reading comprehension > you, I was not comparing a Porsche to the STI, I was stating that I will probably not suffer regret if I sell the GT3 and retreat to some kind of "rice burner".

Originally Posted by Marco911

like saying you can't tell the difference between ultra-high performance tires and all season tires if you don't drive fast. You can certainly feel the firmness of the chassis, and the weight balance through corners and the feel of the road that is transmitted through the seats and steering to your butt and shoulder blades. That requires a tremendous amount of engineering know-how to transmit effectively.

There is some truth to what you are saying, but I would argue that the chassis of a GT3 probably feels no better than a well sorted ITR does on any reasonable speed on public roads.

Originally Posted by Marco911

you sound like someone who couldn't keep up with the payments of the GT3 and is trying to rationalize moving back to something more affordable.

After taxes, Porsche payment, and my rent... I'm only left with like 20k in disposable income every month. I guess my non existent kids will just have to deal with no Christmas this year.

Originally Posted by Marco911

much more, meaning more performance on the track vs. a sacrifice in daily usability and drivability vs. a regular 911. The GT3 is a limited production car for Porsche enthusiasts who want to drive and experience the performance on both a track and the street. A regular 911 is more suitable for 95% of drivers.

I don't DD the GT3, "usability and drivability" of the GT3 are not an issue, the difficulty in keeping the car on a leash is my issue.

Originally Posted by Marco911

if you just look at 0-60 times, but the performance gap gets larger and larger when you are on the track. The M3 can't corner like a 911 or does not accelerate at higher speeds like a 911 does. Sorry.

Hmmmm plenty of guys off M3forums beating up on carrera's at the track.

Originally Posted by Marco911

are crap to own if its a car you drive every day. Supercars are meant as a 3rd or 4th car, to be taken out when the mood suits you and the conditions are suitable. A regular 911 is a car meant to be driven every day and offers a lot of excitement and the driving experience that an enthusiast cares about. If you have owned/driven one, you notice the flaws in other cars very quickly.

I went to one PCA meeting in Alberta, most of the people were complete cunts and look down on anything that doesn't bear the Stuttgart crest. You would probably fit right in.

[dared3vil0]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

After taxes, Porsche payment, and my rent... I'm only left with like 20k in disposable income every month. I guess my non existent kids will just have to deal with no Christmas this year.

I feel so poor LOL

[GS8]

Originally Posted by Marco911

And you sound like someone who couldn't keep up with the payments of the GT3 and is trying to rationalize moving back to something more affordable.

[Z3guy]

Marco is the same guy that hasn't been to a track with his 911 and says he can drive on the street fast enough to appreciate the cars limits Lol!

[westopher]

OT: I finally (think) I saw you driving yesterday down homer st. Car has 4.6 badges on the front fender right?

[Z3guy]

^Yep that's me

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by westopher

An e46 M3 CSL put a second faster time at the ring than a 2009 carrera S. Sorry.

And if the OP had an M3 CSL, you might have a point.

[dared3vil0]

And if you had half a brain, you might be able to make a logical point...

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by jasonturbo

Oh boy, again you are missing the point, we have the road systems we have, and in something like an ITR you can have quite a bit of fun with them.

That's what I was saying, the roads around the Lower Mainland suck compared to major American cities or in Europe, where you can actually use the power on the highways.

Reading comprehension > you, I was not comparing a Porsche to the STI, I was stating that I will probably not suffer regret if I sell the GT3 and retreat to some kind of "rice burner".

Whatever helps you get through the day.

There is some truth to what you are saying, but I would argue that the chassis of a GT3 probably feels no better than a well sorted ITR does on any reasonable speed on public roads.

So what you're saying is that a car/chassis that has been engineered from the ground up as a RWD sports car is not going to feel any better than a tarted up econo-Honda Civic chassis? That's laughable.

Incidentally here are the specs:
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats) 12,500 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Carrera Type 997: 33,000 Nm/deg
Honda Integra / Civic / Tin-can : Not Listed but it's probably pretty bad which is why they have to rely on upper strut tie bars and other braces to compensate for the quivering spaghetti chassis. Let's not forget that the Integra is FWD and has to steer and accelerate using the same drive wheels.

After taxes, Porsche payment, and my rent... I'm only left with like 20k in disposable income every month. I guess my non existent kids will just have to deal with no Christmas this year.

Yeah I'm sure someone who has over 200K of disposable net income after expenses, still rents...<roll eyes>

I don't DD the GT3, "usability and drivability" of the GT3 are not an issue, the difficulty in keeping the car on a leash is my issue.

Your issue was that you couldn't explore the car's limits on the street, hence your argument that a sporty econobox was more fun. That's an over simplification and nowhere close to reality. That's like saying there's no point having a Rolls Royce when you can get a leather interior on a Toyota Camry.

Hmmmm plenty of guys off M3forums beating up on carrera's at the track.

And plenty of Carrera guys beat M3 guys. When driven by professionals, the Carreras are significantly faster.

I went to one PCA meeting in Alberta, most of the people were complete cunts and look down on anything that doesn't bear the Stuttgart crest. You would probably fit right in.

Probably. You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't change the fact that the cars you mentioned are lesser sports cars in pretty much every way conceivable that does not consider $$/value.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by dared3vil0

And if you had half a brain, you might be able to make a logical point...

Non-sequitur arguments are not real arguments, child. If you think I don't make logical points, feel free to come up with a rebuttal.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by Z3guy

Marco is the same guy that hasn't been to a track with his 911 and says he can drive on the street fast enough to appreciate the cars limits Lol!

I have tracked my 911 And yes, you can appreciate the car's limits on the streets, when you drive outside of the confines of the law. Thanks for playing.

[ae101]

after 9 pages later marco had to come in & ruin this thread

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by westopher

An e46 M3 CSL put a second faster time at the ring than a 2009 carrera S. Sorry.

E90 M3 414hp - 8:05s
997.2 Porsche 911CS 385 hp: - 7:50s

That's a whole 15 seconds faster, on a car with less hp. As I said, they aren't comparable.

[Marco911]

Originally Posted by ae101

after 9 pages later marco had to come in & ruin this thread

If you mean deflate the illusion that mainstream sporty cars are in the same "fun" league as Porsches, then yes, I'm glad to be the bitter reality pill.

[dared3vil0]

How the fuck does E90 M3 = E46 M3 CSL?!

[ae101]

marco911 = shark tank

Spoiler!

ok

Spoiler!

no

[dared3vil0]

Originally Posted by Marco911

If you mean deflate the illusion that mainstream sporty cars are in the same "fun" league as Porsches, then yes, I'm glad to be the bitter reality pill.

Holy generalization, Batman. So what you're saying is a 1999 base automatic boxster is more fun than say, an S2000, E46 M3 etc etc etc?

[ae101]

Originally Posted by dared3vil0

Holy generalization, Batman. So what you're saying is a 1999 base automatic boxster is more fun than say, an S2000, E46 M3 etc etc etc?

well that depends on whos driving the boxster

[westopher]

Its no secret that I want a 911, and its even less of a secret that I own an m3, and love m3s, but if you think an m3 isn't in the same league as a 911 of the same vintage (and of course obvious trim levels like turbos, gt cars excluded) around a track, you just haven't read anything about cars in the last 25 years. I'm not talking a gt3 RS against an e30 m3 here. I'm talking about taking an f80 m3 out against a 991 Carrera and the times, fun, and feel are going to be pretty fucking comparable. Also, both the times cited were by the same professional driver, in the same conditions.