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Old 04-13-2015, 06:53 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by carisear View Post
To back this up, here's a bit written press, both from a centre right source, and far left source:

Yes or No: Gregor Robertson and Jordan Bateman sound off on transit plebiscite | Metro

Voting “No” is not a vote for the status quo. It is a vote to cut service per person: less buses, less SkyTrain service, and less Seabus service, because there won’t be any funding for the current system to grow as the population increases.

A “No” vote means no new transit service and therefore more traffic gridlock, more pollution, and higher transportation costs for many residents due to heavier car use.


Mayor Gregor Robertson warns a "no" vote in the transit referendum would be "brutal" for Vancouver | Georgia Straight Vancouver's News & Entertainment Weekly

“Nobody knows where we’ll be set back to,” he said in a telephone interview. “The population is growing by 40,000 people a year, and there will be no new transit service.”
Robertson suggested a “no” vote would not reset the region’s transportation ambitions to the day before the mayors unveiled their 10-year plan, but take plans for public transit back even further.
“A ‘no’ also sends a damaging signal about people’s willingness to invest in transportation and infrastructure more generally, which has brutal consequences for us as a city,” he said.
None of that is a claim of "collapse", it's a claim that population growth with no additional services will make the existing service worse. How is that a lie or exaggeration? That's exactly what will happen and, in Vancouver, "brutal" would be a fair description - look at the Broadway corridor now, look at Commercial-Broadway station.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:01 PM   #427
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That's not true.

http://mayorscouncil.ca/wp-content/u...t-Mar-2015.pdf

Table 1 shows which projects are in the first 5 years and which are in the last 5. It also calls out that only 1 project (rail to Langley) won't be completed in the first 10 years (it'll take 12) It also shows the capital and operating costs in 2015 dollars for each initiative.
Fuck this document. Straight up what an absolute joke. 15 pages of fluff and the other 15 pages are either complete bullshit/scare tactics, or poorly researched and even further poorly planned projects.

Also a bunch of the projects listed in the first section of the 10 year plan, like all the stuff for the north shore (extra seabus, b-line for marine dr, upgrades to LQ), as well as a couple of the projects in burnaby (B-line expansions), are projects which were promised to us before the olympics, and the shelved because translink fucking sucks.

So they are just recycling projects and promises.

One more time, since that plan does not satisfy any of my needs:

Translink needs to hire someone with some real urban planning and transportation initiative to evaluate, analyze and develop a proper plan for the next 30+ years, and come up with a proper strategy to keep this region moving. I'm so sick and tired of half baked plans, and half cocked projects being pushed through because of scare tactics being used by the govenrment and translink.

Of course Mayor Bike lanes is going to tell you voting yes will be detrimental, it pushes budgets for himself and the rest of the public sector even higher. Whereas a no vote means the entire public sector will probably end up cinching the belt, since they are hemorrhaging money like Germany post WWII.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:46 PM   #428
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Moonbean did and so are the yes side. It was in one of his interviews he clearly stated if this funding doesn't get pass public transit will collapse.

Since you are voting yes tell me what projects they will start first if the yes vote goes though? Are you going to purchase more buses, start building the Light rail along boardway or the LRT in Surrey or building a new pattullo bridge or increase night bus.

There are no info as to which project will go first. All that's on the is table is a list of items they want to build or improve with no date, and time when it will start and complete. With different mayors they all want projects that benefit their cities first do you think they will agree so easily?
What? So are you interpreting collapse as in if the no vote goes through transit will cease to function immediately? Because that what your argument sounds like. Time after time it's been said that while transit will function,service level will decrease as population demand increases. It's already shit as it is. I don't understand what your argument is? You don't believe that transit service will decrease over time if no new investment is implemented?
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:59 PM   #429
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I don't understand what your argument is? You don't believe that transit service will decrease over time if no new investment is implemented?
We're going in circles here. The NO side can just as easily ask a similar question:

You actually believe (that with Translink at the helm,) transit service will actually improve just because the 0.5% tax is approved?
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Old 04-13-2015, 10:33 PM   #430
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What? So are you interpreting collapse as in if the no vote goes through transit will cease to function immediately? Because that what your argument sounds like. Time after time it's been said that while transit will function,service level will decrease as population demand increases. It's already shit as it is. I don't understand what your argument is? You don't believe that transit service will decrease over time if no new investment is implemented?
Sorry it is fine as it is. I take the skytrain everyday to and from work during rush hour and I can say less than 10 times I have to wait for more than 1 skytrain before I can board on one to work.

I can tell you first hand there a ton of money being wasted for no reason. Putting art work at main street skytrain is one. That place is a dump (I get off on it everyday) It does not need art work. Skytrain cops standing there doing but chatting. This happens on a daily basis. Not forcing passenger to pay for their fare went entering a bus. Yup a bus driver won't stop you from getting on the bus if you don't pay. All they do is press a button and move on. All the new bench and cover being install along each bus stop cost at least 50k. That's right 50k for a bench and a roof. And those LCD monitior they install at skytrain station cost more than 10k each.

How about having a 2nd look at your spending before asking for more funding or better yet get the big business and developers to pay for their part.
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Old 04-13-2015, 11:26 PM   #431
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Sorry it is fine as it is. I take the skytrain everyday to and from work during rush hour and I can say less than 10 times I have to wait for more than 1 skytrain before I can board on one to work.

I can tell you first hand there a ton of money being wasted for no reason. Putting art work at main street skytrain is one. That place is a dump (I get off on it everyday) It does not need art work. Skytrain cops standing there doing but chatting. This happens on a daily basis. Not forcing passenger to pay for their fare went entering a bus. Yup a bus driver won't stop you from getting on the bus if you don't pay. All they do is press a button and move on. All the new bench and cover being install along each bus stop cost at least 50k. That's right 50k for a bench and a roof. And those LCD monitior they install at skytrain station cost more than 10k each.

How about having a 2nd look at your spending before asking for more funding or better yet get the big business and developers to pay for their part.

The art work in Main Street is not entirely useless. You are going to call me liberal but there are criminology study that promoting and restoring the enrviroment with art or just making the place look good can reduce the crime rate in the area. Maybe it won't be a dump for long.

But think about this ... The passengers not paying, why do you think they didn't pay? The ones that don't pay are usually poor or just homeless catching a free ride. They wouldn't have paid even if you put in the turntolls thing. So enforcing them wouldn't generate any revenue.

I don't take the sky train often but I've been checked for ticket few more often than not. I do think transit police are over paid tho.

I agree that translink and the government does over spend. But that is t what this vote is about ... Them cutting expenses isn't going to immediately generate billions of dollars of income to afford another bridge... Road widening or additional buses. This vote isn't about sticking it to translink it's about whether u want to improve Vancouver. If u have an issue with translink, go to ur next city council meeting and speak up.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:40 AM   #432
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The art is a waste. Is going to get destroy, paint on, pee on in no time and is going cost a ton to fix it.

LOl only the poor not paying. Just go to metrotown and see yourself tons of teens are going on bus and skytrains not paying. They are not poor judging by the clothes they wear, the shoes, the purse.

Cutting expense is a way to regain trust from the public it might not generate billions of dollars at once but it shows the public that translink is doing something.

Let's me ask you this what if you over spending lazy ass brother who stays at YOUR PLACE bumming off you ask for more money to use while doing nothing? Would you give him more money to use. Or He got off his ass and starts looking for work, starts cooking, clean up your house ask you for some money? You are more likely going to give me some money because he is changing to be better.

This is how translink is they are your lazy brother in this case. So why should we give them more?
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:30 AM   #433
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The art is a waste. Is going to get destroy, paint on, pee on in no time and is going cost a ton to fix it.

LOl only the poor not paying. Just go to metrotown and see yourself tons of teens are going on bus and skytrains not paying. They are not poor judging by the clothes they wear, the shoes, the purse.
So there shouldn't be any public art anywhere in the word with your logic? Gonna be a pretty drab place.

And have you not heard of the U-Pass?
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:43 AM   #434
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Who needs public art when we should have free parking and have exotic cars as "art"? Art at no cost to the taxpayer!

I find comments about hiring experts amusing because everyone with an Internet connection thinks their an expert. We don't actually know if Translink hasn't hired the best urban planners, but because there is something wrong in my particular corner of Metro Vancouver, then we assume the worst.

Both sides in this thread are going in circles. I think the vote could be closer than I initially thought because less than 10% have returned their ballots so far. Usually people who are pissed off tend to vote sooner, but I think the fence sitters outnumber the die-hards right now.
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Old 04-14-2015, 10:51 AM   #435
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So there shouldn't be any public art anywhere in the word with your logic? Gonna be a pretty drab place.

And have you not heard of the U-Pass?
Only thing these kids walk up the bus driver claim they have no ticket or money for the bus and just hop on. So no they have no U-pass. When you have extra money sure throw it into art but when you are losing money no money shouldn't be wasted like this.
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:05 AM   #436
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Fair evasion is a cost of doing business for Translink, and for transit operators as a whole. It would cost exponentially more to place transit security/police officers on every bus/skytrain car to actively prevent fair evasion than the current loses. And in the end, the estimated cost of fair evasion equates to only 1.7% of Translink's annual transit budget.

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Old 04-14-2015, 11:32 AM   #437
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It's easier for the bus driver to just let the person on than to confront them or refuse them service. They don't know if the person has a mental illness and could snap and attack them. Honestly, to the rest of the bus, it's also not worth possibly delaying the bus 5 or 10 minutes just to try to get the $2.75 from them.
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:04 PM   #438
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Tell you a situation that has happened.

Bus heading East Bound on Hastings street. Stop right at Hastings and Carrol street . 3 homeless guys come on board. None have fare, one is heavily intoxicated. Driver lets the other 2 non intoxicated people on. Stops the intoxicated one. Guy mutters racial remarks and slanders. Starts getting very violent and kicks the front door glass and shatters it.

What would you do?

In the end, everyone had to get off the bus. Bus is now deemed unsafe to drive due to shattered glass. Everyone has to unload off at carrol and hastings. Driver now has to sit there and wait for help, with 3 intoxicated people and 20 or so furious passengers that has to stand outside for a new bus now.


Another story

4 young youths get on bus, none want to pay. Driver says "farepaid zone" They say "shut the fuck up, you fucken asshole,you have no fucken power"

Driver sticks to his pride? (no idea what would i call it) and refuses to let them on. Again now, bus aint going nowhere now seeing as 2 youths are screaming and cussing at driver on bus, and the 2 others are holding the front door open. This goes on for a good 10 mins.

Passengers start get mad, and start screaming at driver and say just let them fucken on. Some tell kids to get the fuck off and get off.

Finally security comes and bus is able to move on. 15 mins later! and bunch of pissed off passengers.

So tell me, how you would handle this and is that $1.75 or $2.75 worth it.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:23 PM   #439
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Tell you a situation that has happened.

Bus heading East Bound on Hastings street. Stop right at Hastings and Carrol street . 3 homeless guys come on board. None have fare, one is heavily intoxicated. Driver lets the other 2 non intoxicated people on. Stops the intoxicated one. Guy mutters racial remarks and slanders. Starts getting very violent and kicks the front door glass and shatters it.

What would you do?

In the end, everyone had to get off the bus. Bus is now deemed unsafe to drive due to shattered glass. Everyone has to unload off at carrol and hastings. Driver now has to sit there and wait for help, with 3 intoxicated people and 20 or so furious passengers that has to stand outside for a new bus now.


Another story

4 young youths get on bus, none want to pay. Driver says "farepaid zone" They say "shut the fuck up, you fucken asshole,you have no fucken power"

Driver sticks to his pride? (no idea what would i call it) and refuses to let them on. Again now, bus aint going nowhere now seeing as 2 youths are screaming and cussing at driver on bus, and the 2 others are holding the front door open. This goes on for a good 10 mins.

Passengers start get mad, and start screaming at driver and say just let them fucken on. Some tell kids to get the fuck off and get off.

Finally security comes and bus is able to move on. 15 mins later! and bunch of pissed off passengers.

So tell me, how you would handle this and is that $1.75 or $2.75 worth it.
While it's true that the bus driver should absolutely not risk their own safety to get a petty 2.75 fare out of someone who is not going to willingly give it up, you also have to think about how letting someone on that just willy nilly walk onto the bus is also not in the best interest of the other passengers.

It's not just about that stupid $2.75 fare, its also about the safety of the others on board that bus.

Someone somewhere is going to have to make a stand, if it's not the bus driver, then are we going to make security of transit passengers their own problem? Cause I know one thing is for certain, there will never be a security person on every bus. So where do we go with this from here?

So you asked that rhetorical question, about if we would have let the intoxicated homeless guy on the bus. Absolutely not, and it's not because I care about his stupid fare, its because he could pose a problem for other passengers.

What would you have the bus driver do?

In your second example, I am much less worried about the bus drivers actions, than the actions of whoever the fuck told the driver to let those clowns on the bus. I would have jumped up and been on the bus drivers side.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:41 PM   #440
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Old 04-14-2015, 11:47 PM   #441
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I'm sure it's beating a dead horse but I voted no as well. Like hundreds before me have mentioned, show me that you're using what we've given already effectively and I'll gladly hand over another 0.5%. Until then, I'm not willing to part with money that in my eyes they'll just piss away.

This voting for funding is really poor planning on Translink's part. They should have notched a few "wins" under their belt before asking for more money. With the Compass Card, Port Mann Bridge and the CEO firing debacles still fresh in everyone's mind, did they really think they'd get much sympathy (and money) from us?
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Old 04-15-2015, 04:56 AM   #442
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If you talk to any driver, they will tell you No fares piss them off more then anything. They probably hate it more so then the paying passengers.

Also, you have to remember. That most of these No fares are mostly located in DTES. They are usually homeless, mentally ill, or drug addicts. Who in the right mind wants to confront these kinda people in their mental state.


Now the other usual suspects that don't pay are usually younger gens 20 to 30's. Yes they have money and they choose not to pay (which is quite obvious) But, when you think about the overall amount of passengers that do pay compared to these very few . It really is not even worth it. Eventually they will get caught by security and they will realize.


People say, Bus driver why not throw then out? Bus driver why don't you enforce fares? Bottom line is they can't! They have the ability to call for help that is about it. Too be honest not much difference then someone with a cell phone and just calling 911!

If they were given the powers to throw someone out, and enforce fares( which they don't have) why should they? They are not trained or paid to do that. The main purpose of their job is to get passengers from A to B safely.

Again, if you have any good suggestions to counter Fare Evasions by all means please contact Translink Customer service and voice you thoughts.
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Old 04-15-2015, 07:36 AM   #443
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Hong Kong's subway system makes $2B in annual profit [w/video]
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Old 04-15-2015, 01:00 PM   #444
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Fare evasion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fare Evasion for Translink is highly exaggerated. Translink is already on the lower end of evasion despite being a proof of payment system.
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:43 AM   #445
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meanwhile ontario is doing this to raise $ for infra. and transit

Ontario to sell off 60% of Hydro One, allow beer in grocery stores - Toronto - CBC News

Ontario's Liberal government will try to raise money for transit and infrastructure by selling off a large chunk of Hydro One and opening up the way beer is sold in the province............
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Old 04-16-2015, 09:54 AM   #446
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Fare evasion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fare Evasion for Translink is highly exaggerated. Translink is already on the lower end of evasion despite being a proof of payment system.
But, I see fare evasion on a regular basis, so my observations are sufficient evidence that fare evasion exists and is a massive problem, despite other evidence. After all, my opinion matters more because I don't work on the taxpayer's dime. They're all just a bunch of piggies at the trough making up crap so they can justify their high salaries.
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Old 04-16-2015, 10:14 AM   #447
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No one cares about what the bus drivers do in terms of fare evasion, as it's been said its not their job to get into fights over $3. It's the system them work for and the procedures that system puts in place which is failing.

I may have said this earlier but I got a pretty good laugh when translink touted the compas card as having an effect on fare evasion. I've ridden on some of the oldest metros in the world, London, Paris, ST.petersburg. Their form of stopping fare evasion? Fucking Turnstiles! Simple fucking turnstiles that run from ceiling to floor, you put your valid ticket in one side, the Gate allows one person through, then locks. If your ticket is invalid, Somone is there like instantly either turning you around to buy a fare or trying to stick the fare in the right way etc.

I know they wanted to "streamline" bus/skytrain but the simple solution of turnstiles would have all but eliminated skytrain fare evasion and cost a fraction of the cost of the compas card program.
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Old 04-16-2015, 12:42 PM   #448
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Turnstiles aren't foolproof either though. If people wanted to not pay, they will find ways. If they're short, people jump over them. If they're tall, I've seen people squeeze in behind someone else. I've seen that happen in London while I lived there, plus the metros in Paris.

You'll also have issues with people with strollers, people on wheelchairs, people with bikes.

You will never be able to police it 100%.
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Old 04-16-2015, 12:47 PM   #449
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nothing is 100% - what should be aimed for is the best decrease in fare evasion per dollar value; bang for the buck
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Old 04-16-2015, 01:34 PM   #450
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In Paris the bars went floor to ceiling where there was no way to get though other than the gates that open. So no above, under, or throigh anywhere else but the gate.

As well, they have 1 attendant and 1 security there constantly, so there is no holding open/jamming the gate etc. I'm sure people do get around it, but with very little frequency as opposed to just walking into the skytrain unchecked.
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