PST hike of 0.5% proposed for Metro Vancouver transit referendum

[flagella]

Public Sector Salaries - Vancouver Sun

Too many employees with bloated salary.

[Tapioca]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

This is somewhat untrue - I think a lot of your arguments that you make as separate points, are all entirely related.

The mayor's are asking for more money, because Translink misused funds in setting up shit that doesn't work and/or unnecessary, while paying their execs large salaries/bonuses, and maintaining little transparency.

Raising taxes to free congestion and whatnot, fine. But it's going to go to fucking Translink. Which is why people will (or should) vote no. If the question read "Should we raise the PST by 0.5% AND abolish Translink" the outcome will most likely be very heavily skewed.

Faregates were unnecessary, but ignorant people (including many on this board) have been calling for faregates for years. Fare evasion was a problem whose effect was massively exaggerated. The transit police are a waste of money too. But, other than that, I don't think there are many other things that are unnecessary. Maybe making the fleet accessible? Or maybe installing GPS on buses? Or maybe the whole Skytrain was unnecessary?

As I've said, people are treating it as a plebiscite on Translink's performance. What is alternative? The status quo? The dismantling of Translink? Who's going to run the trains and buses in the meantime? Who's going to do the planning for the next 10 years? The province won't do anything because the whole purpose of creating Translink was to de-politicize transportation decisions. The problem is that Translink was given a shitty governance model with no real creative ways to raise revenues.

It's not just the $ amount of the salary, but the overall trend of incompetence associated with the $. Firing a few execs not to save money, but to get someone in place who may do a better job is what most people are demanding.

No disagreement here that Translink has made some poor decisions. I think their exec should be canned. But, then what? The organization arguably had one of the world's best transportation authority CEO's in Tom Prendergast. He left because the organization was a mess. Who would want to work for it in its current state? You either offer the job to someone with little experience (who really has no margin for error), or you overpay for someone good.

On the other hand, will a "No" vote actually send a message? People are incredibly naive to think that it will. The provincial government will just sit on its ass and say, "The people have spoken. Status quo for now."

And what do you mean the audit didn't find much - it found $139 million a year in potential savings just from effeciencies (TransLink audit finds $41M in savings - British Columbia - CBC News)

$250 million per year vs $139 million in efficiencies. Where's the rest of the $110 million going to come from? Property taxes, vehicle levies, gas taxes, etc?

They're purposely leaving out "translink" from all literature associated with this vote, because of the negative stigma it presents to the people of the GVRD - and it's rightfully deserved.

And honestly, I can think of at least a dozen places where traffic is terrible purely due to how the road was designed. Older infrastructure such as the Knight St. Bridge on-ramp, fine - maybe it's excusable since it's so old.

But the Queensborough interchange? Whichever fucking cunt signed off on that one should be drawn and quartered.

Well, of course the mayors are removing Translink from any literature. How else would they sell it considering the negative stigma?

Re the Queensborough. I don't think it's fair to punish Translink for something that was designed by a different organization decades ago.

IMHO, most people are being taken for a ride by the provincial government. The provincial government has avoided its responsibilities for public transit for far too long. It should either be prepared to take full responsibility for transit in the region, via BC Transit, or it should give Translink all of the tools its needs to run a transportation system.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

As I've said, people are treating it as a plebiscite on Translink's performance. What is alternative? The status quo? The dismantling of Translink? Who's going to run the trains and buses in the meantime? Who's going to do the planning for the next 10 years? The province won't do anything because the whole purpose of creating Translink was to de-politicize transportation decisions. The problem is that Translink was given a shitty governance model with no real creative ways to raise revenues.

Of course people are treating the upcoming referendum as a vote on TransLink's performance! With TransLink being involved in the left, right, center of all of our transportation plans, what else are citizens supposed to do? When someone is already married to his wife, a failed marriage means his relationship with his wife failed. Are you trying to tell me that it was only the marriage that failed, but not his relationship with the wife?

Have you ever heard of the saying "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."? Given TransLink's chequered history (and especially on all the blotched projects), do you honestly believe that they can appropriately utilize the 0.5% tax revenues they are raising this time, when they have already failed to do so with all the vastly different ways they already have to drain money from our wallets? Only a fool would think that the outcome would be different this time.

On the other hand, will a "No" vote actually send a message? People are incredibly naive to think that it will. The provincial government will just sit on its ass and say, "The people have spoken. Status quo for now."

IMHO, most people are being taken for a ride by the provincial government. The provincial government has avoided its responsibilities for public transit for far too long. It should either be prepared to take full responsibility for transit in the region, via BC Transit, or it should give Translink all of the tools its needs to run a transportation system.

Whether a successful message can be sent to the authorities (aka politicians?) remains unseen, but from the discussions that I have been seeing, a lot of people in the NO camp fully agree that regional transportation funding is inadequate. Had the referendum been something along the lines of "add the new tax, and abolish/reform TransLink", a lot of NO voters would instantly become supportive of the plan.

Will the provincial government pick up on this? I dunno, but if I were a smart politician / political party, I would definitely pick up on it and turn it into an election issue next time.

[meowjinboo]

Posted this on facebook, but I feel like it could contribute here too.

I have friends who work for translink. Not hating on them but they have a very comfortable job. Talk about 30+ an hour, long ass paid vacation, insane government pensions, best dental/medical money, double time on sundays and other benefits I probably dont know about. Don't get me wrong It's probably a very good company to work for and you'll be taken care of but the amount of skill to what you get paid ratio is insane. I'd love to work for them. But knowing how bloated these agencies are there needs to be an audit done. I bet you have jobs where 1 employee can do but they have 3-4 hired including 2 managers. Remember when ICBC was audited last year by a CA firm? They had to fire over 100 managers. MANAGERS. And they claim there is no government waste in these agencies!

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by meowjinboo

Posted this on facebook, but I feel like it could contribute here too.

I have friends who work for translink. Not hating on them but they have a very comfortable job. Talk about 30+ an hour, long ass paid vacation, insane government pensions, best dental/medical money, double time on sundays and other benefits I probably dont know about. Don't get me wrong It's probably a very good company to work for and you'll be taken care of but the amount of skill to what you get paid ratio is insane. I'd love to work for them. But knowing how bloated these agencies are there needs to be an audit done. I bet you have jobs where 1 employee can do but they have 3-4 hired including 2 managers. Remember when ICBC was audited last year by a CA firm? They had to fire over 100 managers. MANAGERS. And they claim there is no government waste in these agencies!

Translink bus drivers only earn $30+/hr after multiple years of service and only if they drive certain buses. Their pension/health plan is no better than the one I get through my work (in fact, mine has slightly better perks) and it's still the same package I opted for when I first started in the retail-level position (fyi, all that info is on their Union website). The Sunday premium is also only for those who opt to work that day on a regular basis. Though it's not as much, certain companies like Costco also offer a Sunday premium. The rational behind the extra pay is because the majority of drivers are either parents or of the religious nature. That meant at some point they were having trouble finding drivers with availability for Sunday, hence the incentive to work that day. I also mentioned this in the other thread, but either you ignored it or missed it: Bus drivers deal with far more physical and emotional abuse than anyone should ever have to, which is one reason why drivers are paid "well."

Just to bring up the benefits again, I'd like to point out that their union bartered agreement contains far less perks and wage incentives than many private sector union agreements. Look up the agreement of my old Union, IATSE669, and then complain Translink bus drivers are overpaid/compensated.

I'm all for being critical of Translink when it pertains to something deserving, but picking on the bus drivers for making a decent wage while dealing with some of the worst people humanity has to offer... well, that's the wrong battle to pick.

[pastarocket]

The Surrey Board of Trade wants the new Patullo bridge to be toll free and the creation of light rail for Surrey. -more than just about the transit tax.

These two items make sense for Surrey. However, is an increase in PST enough extra funding for a toll free Patullo AND light rail?


http://http://m.news1130.com/2015/02...w-transit-tax/

[meowjinboo]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Translink bus drivers only earn $30+/hr after multiple years of service and only if they drive certain buses. Their pension/health plan is no better than the one I get through my work (in fact, mine has slightly better perks) and it's still the same package I opted for when I first started in the retail-level position (fyi, all that info is on their Union website). The Sunday premium is also only for those who opt to work that day on a regular basis. Though it's not as much, certain companies like Costco also offer a Sunday premium. The rational behind the extra pay is because the majority of drivers are either parents or of the religious nature. That meant at some point they were having trouble finding drivers with availability for Sunday, hence the incentive to work that day. I also mentioned this in the other thread, but either you ignored it or missed it: Bus drivers deal with far more physical and emotional abuse than anyone should ever have to, which is one reason why drivers are paid "well."

Just to bring up the benefits again, I'd like to point out that their union bartered agreement contains far less perks and wage incentives than many private sector union agreements. Look up the agreement of my old Union, IATSE669, and then complain Translink bus drivers are overpaid/compensated.

I'm all for being critical of Translink when it pertains to something deserving, but picking on the bus drivers for making a decent wage while dealing with some of the worst people humanity has to offer... well, that's the wrong battle to pick.

It isn't just bus drivers. My friend works for pro trans or w/e SNC lavalin calls them selves and all those Canada line attendants get 30+ an hour and they are OUTSOURCED.

[melloman]

Originally Posted by pastarocket

The Surrey Board of Trade wants the new Patullo bridge to be toll free and the creation of light rail for Surrey. -more than just about the transit tax.

These two items make sense for Surrey. However, is an increase in PST enough extra funding for a toll free Patullo AND light rail?


http://http://m.news1130.com/2015/02...w-transit-tax/

Goodluck getting what.. $5billion in free funding. I'm sorry but FUCK THAT.
Toll Patullo and watch all the Surrey people who don't like tolls move over to Alex Fraser. They already jumped ship off Portmann when the toll came into effect (granted $5.30 each way for an unregistered car is fucked).

If we put our PST up by 0.5%, tolls should drop and skytrain should get expanded. But there should definitely not be a NO TOLL on Patullo. The minute that happens, we might as well raise PST again by 0.5% to pay for the Massey Tunnel. Another 0.5% to replace Lions Gate. So on and so forth the greedy ass government and Translink will go.

[Mr.HappySilp]

The issue people have to remember is that it gives tranlink an idea to increase tax when they need more funding without finding new funding. Sure is only 0.5% now but what about 5 years, 10 years 20years. Do you honestly thing translink will simply stop at a 0.5% increase? I think not.

This is pave a very very easy way for them to increase our tax. Also they are simply forcing us to vote yes but simply saying "Vote yes or we won't expand our service" . Why should we be force upon it. We should be given more a simply yes or no choice!

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by Tapioca

Faregates were unnecessary, but ignorant people (including many on this board) have been calling for faregates for years. Fare evasion was a problem whose effect was massively exaggerated. The transit police are a waste of money too. But, other than that, I don't think there are many other things that are unnecessary. Maybe making the fleet accessible? Or maybe installing GPS on buses? Or maybe the whole Skytrain was unnecessary?

Those are small things, which people are willing to let slide. Fare evasion may be exaggerated, but it's still money that could have been easily recoverable at a smaller price. Transit police, as you've agreed, are redundant and don't really do much IMO.

But the bigger unnecessary items, are like the Main Street Poodle. And the big empty building Translink is still paying rent on. And the TV screens at each location that show news. If I, as an individual, make some extravagant and useless purchases, but as a whole am still financially responsible enough that those around me don't look at me with scorn, all is well. Such is not the case with Translink.

As I've said, people are treating it as a plebiscite on Translink's performance. What is alternative? The status quo? The dismantling of Translink? Who's going to run the trains and buses in the meantime? Who's going to do the planning for the next 10 years? The province won't do anything because the whole purpose of creating Translink was to de-politicize transportation decisions. The problem is that Translink was given a shitty governance model with no real creative ways to raise revenues.

You're treating the end of Translink like the end of the world - it's not. It doesn't mean an end, it means a change. Translink may have been given a shitty governance model, but they were tasked with making it better - not worse. To which they have failed. So trying another option would make sense, no?

No disagreement here that Translink has made some poor decisions. I think their exec should be canned. But, then what? The organization arguably had one of the world's best transportation authority CEO's in Tom Prendergast. He left because the organization was a mess. Who would want to work for it in its current state? You either offer the job to someone with little experience (who really has no margin for error), or you overpay for someone good.

By your logic, someone took up the position when Translink was first established, in hopes of making the system better. They haven't. Repeat my point from above. Overpaying for someone good is still ok. Overpaying for someone (some people actually) who are not good, is not ok.

On the other hand, will a "No" vote actually send a message? People are incredibly naive to think that it will. The provincial government will just sit on its ass and say, "The people have spoken. Status quo for now."

It may or may not send a message. But even if it doesn't, they'll have to come up with the money some other way, which may actually include some smart decisions, seeing as they can't just gain extra revenue.

$250 million per year vs $139 million in efficiencies. Where's the rest of the $110 million going to come from? Property taxes, vehicle levies, gas taxes, etc?

If I get a $10 allowance every week, of which most of I save, and at the end of the year I've saved $300, and really want a $400 PS4, I can ask my parents for more, and they'd probably be more willing to help.

If, on the other hand, I waste all my money on slurpees, and THEN ask my parents for more since I'm poor, they'll surely be a little less willing.

Same case here, IMO.

Well, of course the mayors are removing Translink from any literature. How else would they sell it considering the negative stigma?

Re the Queensborough. I don't think it's fair to punish Translink for something that was designed by a different organization decades ago.

The QB-IC was doing decently. And then it was redone about 5 years ago (give or take). And although Translink was only semi-involved, I was using it more as an example of how extravagant sums of money is used to make things worse, when they complain about having no money. MoTI is more to blame in this case, really.

IMHO, most people are being taken for a ride by the provincial government. The provincial government has avoided its responsibilities for public transit for far too long. It should either be prepared to take full responsibility for transit in the region, via BC Transit, or it should give Translink all of the tools its needs to run a transportation system.

I will agree with most of this. Except the end. Translink should not be given anything more, given their track record.

You give someone a small amount of responsibility first to see what they can do with it - and it wasn't a measly one, it was big enough. Then, if you see that they do well, you give them more. If not, you fire them.

Fuck Translink

*edit: woot, 2000th post haha.

[6o4__boi]

Originally Posted by GoldenBoy

Would you vote for a PST hike of 0.5% for transit?

PST hike of 0.5% proposed for Metro Vancouver transit referendum - British Columbia - CBC News

pretty much the only appropriate answer.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Bus drivers deal with far more physical and emotional abuse than anyone should ever have to, which is one reason why drivers are paid "well."

I don't disagree on what drivers get paid, at least not until we start seeing the same sort of backlog of resumes and people ready to work as drivers (which is starting to happen).

Your statement above is just kind of tiresome now, I mean it seems as though every public sector employee is burdened heavily with emotional trauma;

-Teachers have to deal with rotten little children
-Police officers fend for their lives
-Healthcare workers and firefighters deal with extremely difficult conditions
-secretaries have to sit at a desk all day long, and it causes health problems
etc. etc.

The list goes on an on, at what point does dealing with this shit just become part of the damn job? I deal with racism, I deal with having punches thrown, i've had a stapler come rocketing at my head, and all I fucking do is work in an office right now.

When I was still in the field as a tradesperson the amount of shit those guys go through is ridiculous. When was the last time you went to the washroom at your work, and ended up covered in your own feces, and then forced to work the remainder of the day?

Have you ever been hit over the head with a crescent wrench and been told to get the fuck back to work?

EDIT: I think the problem here is just that this world has gone soft, too many pussies, not enough hard workers left.

[inv4zn]

Originally Posted by meme405

The list goes on an on, at what point does dealing with this shit just become part of the damn job? I deal with racism, I deal with having punches thrown, i've had a stapler come rocketing at my head, and all I fucking do is work in an office right now.

When I was still in the field as a tradesperson the amount of shit those guys go through is ridiculous. When was the last time you went to the washroom at your work, and ended up covered in your own feces, and then forced to work the remainder of the day?

Have you ever been hit over the head with a crescent wrench and been told to get the fuck back to work?

EDIT: I think the problem here is just that this world has gone soft, too many pussies, not enough hard workers left.

...Call me soft, but what you're describing is assault, at its core definition lol. There are laws made to avoid that sort of shit. Now, I know there are fucks who abuse these, but still.

And the issues that Lomac et al present are small in comparison to the gross negligence prevalent.

If bus driver's are making thrice the minimum wage, I may think wow, but that's the end of that, because I know there are risks and whatnot associated. And the salary of bus drivers, in relation to Translink's budget, is still understandable in the public's perception.

But as a good example, Transit police, who arguably do very little, are making ludicrous amounts of money.

Transit cops ask for 5.5 per cent wage hike, retroactive pay | CTV Vancouver News

It's shit like this.

[ZN6]

Originally Posted by melloman

If we put our PST up by 0.5%, tolls should drop and skytrain should get expanded.

Should, but likely won't. Why? The excuse of having to maintain the increasing cost to maintain the bridges.

Also, pockets have to be lined which we all know is the real reason.

[westopher]

Officers currently make a minimum of $75,000 a year and more than one-third of officers earn in excess of $100,000 a year.

Read more: Transit cops ask for 5.5 per cent wage hike, retroactive pay | CTV Vancouver News

This is fucking horseshit. This is the perfect example of why translink is a joke.
Here are the salaries for REAL police officers. You know, the kind that risk their fucking lives and do REAL police work. Not just hand out fare evasion tickets and drink fucking jugo juice all day.

The Vancouver Police Department's salary and benefits package is considered one of the most generous of all Canadian police forces.
« LESS

Our pension plan ranks among the best government and private sector plans in terms of eligibility and monthly payments.

You'll start with three weeks per year of vacation per year with the opportunity to take overtime hours as additional vacation time. Plus you'll be paid and receiving benefits while you train at the Police Academy.

Annual Salaries

Effective 2013:

Probationary Constable – $64,513
4th Class Constable (after 1 year) – $69,125
3rd Class Constable (after 2 years) – $73,738
2nd Class Constable (after 3 years) –$82,942
1st Class Constable (after 4 years) – $92,167
Salary Levels for 1st Class Constable

after 10 years – $94,421
after 15 years – $98,909
after 20 years – $103,396

[meme405]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

...Call me soft, but what you're describing is assault, at its core definition lol. There are laws made to avoid that sort of shit. Now, I know there are fucks who abuse these, but still.

And the issues that Lomac et al present are small in comparison to the gross negligence prevalent.

If bus driver's are making thrice the minimum wage, I may think wow, but that's the end of that, because I know there are risks and whatnot associated. And the salary of bus drivers, in relation to Translink's budget, is still understandable in the public's perception.

But as a good example, Transit police, who arguably do very little, are making ludicrous amounts of money.

Transit cops ask for 5.5 per cent wage hike, retroactive pay | CTV Vancouver News

It's shit like this.

My point was not that those situations are acceptable, far from it. My point is just that you can have a shitty day at any job (some more literally then others), so lets nix that argument.

If you are law enforcement, or military, or you pull people out of house fires for a living, or sew back on limbs, then yes you need to be paid appropriately for that. If you drive around the city and occasionally have to deal with an unruly passenger, or homeless guy, I really don't think you can be in the same league.

Bus drivers work in a service field, as such they bear the responsibility of dealing with clients, no different then the 15 year old girl who works as a cashier at walmart.

[Jonydakiller]

Whats the requirements to be a bus driver? i'm too lazy to look it up, other than a special class in driver license, what else?

I'm in trade which I had to go to school for 2 years paid my tuition and studied my ass off to just get a piece of paper so i could get a job that pays me $30+ hr.

To me, anybody who gets paid more than average without any sort of educations or skills are hard for me to swallow. Unless you are a good talker and know how to make a sale or own your own business.

I'm not saying bus drivers should be paid at minimum, but not at a comparable hourly rate to many other professions in which require skills or educations

[mdnx]

Why would I vote yes to let a company implement a tax which would end up as a permanent tax and then could only increase in the percentage they deduct while mismanaging the money?

If I had more faith in translink about how they spend their money on services I would be more swayed to vote yes but given how they handle their situation and over pay for the little work they do, I don't think it is right for me to give another % of my hard earned income to a company just "burning" my money so to speak. at this point I may as well take the $260 and throw it in the ocean if I were to vote yes.

[SoNaRWaVe]

Originally Posted by westopher

This is fucking horseshit. This is the perfect example of why translink is a joke.
Here are the salaries for REAL police officers. You know, the kind that risk their fucking lives and do REAL police work. Not just hand out fare evasion tickets and drink fucking jugo juice all day.

Annual Salaries

Effective 2013:

Probationary Constable – $64,513
4th Class Constable (after 1 year) – $69,125
3rd Class Constable (after 2 years) – $73,738
2nd Class Constable (after 3 years) –$82,942
1st Class Constable (after 4 years) – $92,167
Salary Levels for 1st Class Constable

after 10 years – $94,421
after 15 years – $98,909
after 20 years – $103,396

well, thats the point. you need to be willing to pay more for people to jump ship and work for you. how else would they have established a force? keep in mind too, that these guys already have the qualifications when they are hired on to transit police, so translink saves the whole training process and what not. to translink, probably worth every penny. to us, not so much.

@meme: the jobs you have listed has also been on strike and has asked for wage increase due to their difficulties at work. so there is never a point where its just part of the job. you always ask for more. are you saying you are willing to settle at your wage now and never ask for an increase just simply because its your job to do your job regardless how hard or difficult it gets? if it gets harder, you ask for more. its as simple as that.

if not, you can always leave, and i bet the position would be filled pretty damn fast, and probably for a lower salary too. you don't get anything without a fight and thats the sad reality of it. no employer wants to pay more than they have to.

[meowjinboo]

Originally Posted by westopher

This is fucking horseshit. This is the perfect example of why translink is a joke.
Here are the salaries for REAL police officers. You know, the kind that risk their fucking lives and do REAL police work. Not just hand out fare evasion tickets and drink fucking jugo juice all day.

While I agree it would be hard to attract talent if most would jump ship to VPD/RCMP especially if they pay more.

BUT

I'm a plumber and most of my crew like to work in New Construction because they don't have to deal with bullshit even if it pays less than service.

[meowjinboo]

Originally Posted by meme405

My point was not that those situations are acceptable, far from it. My point is just that you can have a shitty day at any job (some more literally then others), so lets nix that argument.

If you are law enforcement, or military, or you pull people out of house fires for a living, or sew back on limbs, then yes you need to be paid appropriately for that. If you drive around the city and occasionally have to deal with an unruly passenger, or homeless guy, I really don't think you can be in the same league.

Bus drivers work in a service field, as such they bear the responsibility of dealing with clients, no different then the 15 year old girl who works as a cashier at walmart.

most unruley passengers can be deal with this way

"hey man I don't have money to ride the bus"

"ok hop on"

There. Their job is safe now.

I like what Calgary Transit does. Alot of useless routes in Vancouver still use the big buses even though there is no way in hell they can fill a big bus. So after 5/6pm they use teh shortbuses (which I assume burn way less fuel. )

[meowjinboo]

Originally Posted by meme405

My point was not that those situations are acceptable, far from it. My point is just that you can have a shitty day at any job (some more literally then others), so lets nix that argument.

If you are law enforcement, or military, or you pull people out of house fires for a living, or sew back on limbs, then yes you need to be paid appropriately for that. If you drive around the city and occasionally have to deal with an unruly passenger, or homeless guy, I really don't think you can be in the same league.

Bus drivers work in a service field, as such they bear the responsibility of dealing with clients, no different then the 15 year old girl who works as a cashier at walmart.

Actually I took it that trades shouldn't be getting paid near the same as bus drivers, which I agree with. My work has life and death consequences and can cause severe property damage up to the 6 figures.

[nabs]

Daphne Bramham: For the Yes side to win, TransLink needs to apologize

[tonyzoomzoom]

Trying to take a page out of Robertson's political book? What exactly is Translink going to apologize for?

Their incompetence? Their ignorance? Their overloaded overpaid management team? Their lack of leadership? LOL.

[SoNaRWaVe]

Originally Posted by meowjinboo

most unruley passengers can be deal with this way

"hey man I don't have money to ride the bus"

"ok hop on"

There. Their job is safe now.

I like what Calgary Transit does. Alot of useless routes in Vancouver still use the big buses even though there is no way in hell they can fill a big bus. So after 5/6pm they use teh shortbuses (which I assume burn way less fuel. )

cuz that generates revenue for the company.

when buses don't make that revenue, it shows that less people use that route/bus. then that route gets axed or the bus gets reallocated to another route. then the people that rely on that bus gets screwed.

you can argue not alot of people do that, but when one person sees another person able to do it, it will spread like wildfire.

in short, the smaller route gets cut when the bus drivers just allow free rides.