TransLink introducing one-zone fare on buses

[yray]

Originally Posted by godwin

I would say because of safety? so at least the bus driver can dissuade drunk or potentially disruptive people from boarding in the first place?

Once a disruptive person board the bus, the bus driver have to disrupt everyone else on the bus's life to get the person off the bus.

Or are you suggesting having 2 staff on every bus?

I thought drivers can't kick them off the bus anyways as per the union. They must stop the bus and call security/popo?

99 B line is rear entry too

[melloman]

Wow, after watching the 6 o'clock news, this is just a gongshow and should be abolished.

tl;dr from CTV @ 6pm:
-Compass Cards start Oct. 5
-Machines will only dispense single tickets until late Oct, when passes will be dispensed.
-November, retail outlet dispense passes
-Busses ONLY have the single zone system, fares are at $2.75.
-Skytrain, WCE, and Seabus still have normal fares, you just have to tap in and tap out anyway. (No changes other then making you do extra work)

The highlights of the Q&A Press Conference were awesome though, Translink got asked 2 questions back-to-back:

Person: "So if buses are now technically cheaper, won't you lose revenue?"
Translink: "No we expect more people to get on buses and the revenue will balance itself out."
Other Person: "How will you deal with the increased ridership then on already packed buses?"
Translink: "Umm..." *no comment*

Was eating dinner and I just went:

[Mr.HappySilp]

How will the system calculate those who use both the bus and skytrain for their trip.

Say you take a bus to get to skytrain in Burnaby that count as 1 zone, then from skytrain to DT that's a 2 zone fare. Then form DT you take another bus to work so that's 1 zone on the bus.

Does that mean it will become a 3 zone fare trip instead of a 2 zone fare trip?

[SoNaRWaVe]

^ incorrect.

break your trip down. bus to skytrain in burnaby is a one zone fare, 2.75. when you hop on the skytrain, you tap to get in. then tap out in dt to exit. thats 2 zones. so the system will do an add fare for you. you now have a 2 zone ticket. you can take the bus in dt to work on that same 2 zone ticket. so your trip would have cost you $4.00

[SoNaRWaVe]

Originally Posted by yray

I thought drivers can't kick them off the bus anyways as per the union. They must stop the bus and call security/popo?

99 B line is rear entry too

the bus driver primary role is to get the passengers from point A to point B in a safe and timely manner. it is not their role to enforce.

they can surely ask for the person to get off, but if the driver feels that it is unsafe to operate the bus with said person on the bus, they would need to call supervisor/transit security. no need to agitate the man further. who knows what might happen.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by SoNaRWaVe

^ incorrect.

break your trip down. bus to skytrain in burnaby is a one zone fare, 2.75. when you hop on the skytrain, you tap to get in. then tap out in dt to exit. thats 2 zones. so the system will do an add fare for you. you now have a 2 zone ticket. you can take the bus in dt to work on that same 2 zone ticket. so your trip would have cost you $4.00

With how bad the compass is I doubt it will be this smart.

[SoNaRWaVe]

when it comes to grabbing money, it will be smart enough.

and its right on their website on how it works.

[falcon]

Originally Posted by 604STIG

So what happens if you take the bus (and get a transfer) then need to take the train? You have to buy a new ticket or is the transfer still good? Sorry if stupid question but i'm not a frequent transit user.

Like many other cities in the world, including London, the bus system and the train system are separate.

I wish Translink would allow you to purchased tickets for the Skytrain with a destination stop listed and charge based on distance. And allow you to do it without the card.

In London I recall they had the card, but if you forgot to tap out they would charge the max zone fare. If you tapped out you paid the distance only from station to station. Seemed to work great and even with paper tickets there was never a line to get out. The mag stripe was int he middle of the card and you could insert it any direction into the turnstile.

[Razor Ramon HG]

In Korea, the bus and subway system are connected. You have a 30 minute grace period to hop off the subway to a bus and vice versa.

[SoNaRWaVe]

the goal is to get rid of zones and use a distance based system. but without data, that cannot happen. it would be years before they figure it out. thats why they want people to tap so they can analyze the data.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by godwin

They installed it, however they didn't anticipate the low coverage of cell towers causing latency or failing to complete transaction at a lot of their stops.

I don't get how this is even a problem if they were competent enough in the first place.

Just install a beacon at each stop so the machine has no problem recognizing the stops and bill correctly. As for relaying the user info back to server, since we are already spending hundred of millions on Compass, what is to install a few repeater that target specific dead zones. How many stops exactly has that little reception? I think to provide connection to point is much easier than omni-directional like cellphone.

Heck, a better idea would just wire every bus stop with copper/fiber and provide wi-fi to riders (wi-fi access with monthly pass anyone?) or share with private entities like Shaw... I'm sure they'd be interested.

[CRS]

I just think that hiring Cubic to implement the system was giant mistake. We should have given the contract out to a company that has a working system in metropolis cities like Hong Kong, London, or Seoul.

[nabs]

^^^^
That's not how it works. Companies don't just 'give out' contracts on a publicly funded project.

[CRS]

Originally Posted by nabs

^^^^
That's not how it works. Companies don't just 'give out' contracts on a publicly funded project.

Bids are submitted and translink chooses which company receives the contract.

Or is this not how it is?

[tonyzoomzoom]

You can bet that political contributions were made and subsequent pressure put on Translink to choose the "right" contractor.

[prolepsis]

Still have a bunch of FareSaver tickets. On TransLink's site, under the Compass Card FAQs, they mention that you'll be able to continue using them for a limited time (during the transition), and that they'll advise when the cutoff date is.

I'm assuming that if people have leftover FareSaver tickets after the cutoff date, these become useless. That is, you can't turn them in and get a credit added to your Compass Card.

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by prolepsis

Still have a bunch of FareSaver tickets. On TransLink's site, under the Compass Card FAQs, they mention that you'll be able to continue using them for a limited time (during the transition), and that they'll advise when the cutoff date is.

I'm assuming that if people have leftover FareSaver tickets after the cutoff date, these become useless. That is, you can't turn them in and get a credit added to your Compass Card.

early 2016

[godwin]

Problem is Translink doesn't own the land they operate on.. they can't just get Telus or Shaw to install things on land they don't own now can they?

We won't have the conversation about transit tax etc if Translink owns their own land and allowed to develop them.

The problem is they want milliseconds in response, which even most wireless credit card terminal can't do right now.

At least Vancouver decided to roll out the system vs Calgary which is more of a gong show.

Originally Posted by Hehe

I don't get how this is even a problem if they were competent enough in the first place.

Just install a beacon at each stop so the machine has no problem recognizing the stops and bill correctly. As for relaying the user info back to server, since we are already spending hundred of millions on Compass, what is to install a few repeater that target specific dead zones. How many stops exactly has that little reception? I think to provide connection to point is much easier than omni-directional like cellphone.

Heck, a better idea would just wire every bus stop with copper/fiber and provide wi-fi to riders (wi-fi access with monthly pass anyone?) or share with private entities like Shaw... I'm sure they'd be interested.

[nabs]

Originally Posted by CRS

Bids are submitted and translink chooses which company receives the contract.

Or is this not how it is?

That is not how it is

[AstulzerRZD]

Originally Posted by CRS

I just think that hiring Cubic to implement the system was giant mistake. We should have given the contract out to a company that has a working system in metropolis cities like Hong Kong, London, or Seoul.

Cubic does in fact run the system in London, and there are some issues with tapping out there as well

Compass Card systems causing problems in other cities | CTV Vancouver News

I know that Ottawa recently adopted Presto card, which is used in Toronto. They system involves tapping out as well, and from what I've heard, there aren't any complaints.

[CRS]

Originally Posted by nabs

That is not how it is

Alright, care to explain how it is then?

[CRS]

Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD

Cubic does in fact run the system in London, and there are some issues with tapping out there as well

Compass Card systems causing problems in other cities | CTV Vancouver News

I know that Ottawa recently adopted Presto card, which is used in Toronto. They system involves tapping out as well, and from what I've heard, there aren't any complaints.

Interesting. I didn't know that!

Thank you for sharing!

[ZN6]

Originally Posted by SoNaRWaVe

the goal is to get rid of zones and use a distance based system. but without data, that cannot happen. it would be years before they figure it out. thats why they want people to tap so they can analyze the data.

The thing is, it has been years since the roll out of the beta testing. I remember when they said the compass cards were ready to sell at London drugs like February 2013. LD said, nope, not ready. Translink SHOULD have more than enough data to track all the beta testers that had been in the compass program over two years. How fucking long do they need? it's going on to 3 years since it was supposed to be launched. Do they need like 10 years to get this thing working? It's starting to feel like duke nukem forever. Sure, it came but it was a heaping pile of shit. Without some deep deductive brainpower to be tapped, the compass card is heading in the same direction, albeit much more costly pile of shit.

Even then, they should have analysts that should be able to figure out the pricing from destination to destination. I have a hard time believing that they can't do this given the simplicity of our transit system is versus something like Tokyo's. Their system is FAR superior. Buy a ticket and pay the amount on the zone where you intend to stop, the computer measure where you start from, then you put the ticket back in when you exit the station. if you didn't pay enough the gates close and you pay the attendant. If you are attentive enough to know where your destination and you paid enough you're on your merry way. Some how they can integrate the fare with a tappable card. hmm....

Have a suika card? Ok, tap it, it measures where you start, and when you leave the station, beep out and it will deduct the amount from your balance.

I think it all comes down to being fucking lazy. People in greater Vancouver just don't want to inconvenience themselves by pulling out their wallets for 2 seconds. Well, if they beep once then forget to beep out, the next time they beep they should just deduct the maximum amount of zones they transferred; like 15 bucks or something, that will reinforce people to beep out.

Same thing happens when you park in a parkade. Lose your ticket? well pay the full amount, fuckers.

Motivation hits the hardest when it's in the wallet.

[sonick]

Perhaps kind of a tin-foil-hat idea here... What if the transit plebiscite was primarily just a way for Translink to get the funds to dig themselves out of the Compass disaster? And what you are looking at here is their plan B...

[SoNaRWaVe]

Originally Posted by ZN6

The thing is, it has been years since the roll out of the beta testing. I remember when they said the compass cards were ready to sell at London drugs like February 2013. LD said, nope, not ready. Translink SHOULD have more than enough data to track all the beta testers that had been in the compass program over two years. How fucking long do they need? it's going on to 3 years since it was supposed to be launched. Do they need like 10 years to get this thing working? It's starting to feel like duke nukem forever. Sure, it came but it was a heaping pile of shit. Without some deep deductive brainpower to be tapped, the compass card is heading in the same direction, albeit much more costly pile of shit.

Even then, they should have analysts that should be able to figure out the pricing from destination to destination. I have a hard time believing that they can't do this given the simplicity of our transit system is versus something like Tokyo's. Their system is FAR superior. Buy a ticket and pay the amount on the zone where you intend to stop, the computer measure where you start from, then you put the ticket back in when you exit the station. if you didn't pay enough the gates close and you pay the attendant. If you are attentive enough to know where your destination and you paid enough you're on your merry way. Some how they can integrate the fare with a tappable card. hmm....

Have a suika card? Ok, tap it, it measures where you start, and when you leave the station, beep out and it will deduct the amount from your balance.

I think it all comes down to being fucking lazy. People in greater Vancouver just don't want to inconvenience themselves by pulling out their wallets for 2 seconds. Well, if they beep once then forget to beep out, the next time they beep they should just deduct the maximum amount of zones they transferred; like 15 bucks or something, that will reinforce people to beep out.

Same thing happens when you park in a parkade. Lose your ticket? well pay the full amount, fuckers.

Motivation hits the hardest when it's in the wallet.

Problem is with beta testing, is that it is probably just for beta testing. I doubt they look at the beta testers and call it a good enough sample for the entire network of users to determine what the correct distance base system would be. Right now, at least they can say that over 90% of users only use transit for one zone.

What is the correct number to determine the distance base system? I think that is a hard number to agree on. Because most users only travel the system on one zone, do they determine calculation base on a one zone fare? Then how do you measure going two zones? Now that the add fare is 1.25 more (for a two zone), how do you measure "two zones" based on distance and how do you implement that into pricing of the distance base system?

Surely its a number they don't want lower than what they make now, but not so high so that there will be another outcry. People think that with distance based system, the fare should be cheaper. Yet they obviously still need to break even/profit from the number they use.

The whole forgetting the tap out part is non-excusable. It is said many times that the user will be charged the full 3 zones at the moment. But what is the full "3 zone" fare when distance base comes?

Not that I am siding with Translink here, but there is much more data that needs to be analyzed and much more work needed than what meets the eye. What works for London may not work for here.

I also think that there might be another one or two more systems other than London that Cubic have worked on.