Crews rescue out-of-bounds skiers stranded overnight on Cypress Mountain

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by Ludepower

I've heard people who do get rescue donate generously afterwards. So lets not shame them cause they're generally remorseful and own up to it.

Whatever their "generous donations" are, I guarantee you it doesn't cover the cost of jet fuel for helicopters.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

Whatever their "generous donations" are, I guarantee you it doesn't cover the cost of jet fuel for helicopters.

1. Yes, they probably don't cover helicopter, expenses, but you would be surprised how much some of these rescuee's donate. There are numerous examples, also many of them go on to be very vocal in support of the SAR volunteers, and run fundraisers on behalf of the team. Some examples (just from the blog of NSSAR):

Donation from Rescuee - North Shore Rescue ? Vancouver Search and Rescue Team

Snowboarder raises $10,000 for NSR - North Shore Rescue ? Vancouver Search and Rescue Team

2. Taken from SAR's own blog:

Inevitably as the media coverage of our rescues increase the cries for “Charge that idiot!” increase. On the surface this seems like a good solution – it would deter people from getting lost, and help fund SAR. Like most things – it is not quite so simple and the knee jerk reaction of charging people for rescue is actually a terrible idea. So why is it a terrible idea?

First off almost every SAR team or organization – volunteer, military or government does not believe charging for rescue is a good idea. This should give you an indication that this probably isn’t a good idea. But lets explore it anyways.

There is sound research behind these policies including that charging for rescue does not actually reduce rescues – it also endangers subjects and rescue crews, and increases fatalities.

On the surface it does appear that this would be a deterrent but it doesn’t work this way in reality.

If people believe they will be charged – people who are in need of rescue don’t call, call too late, or in some cases hide from crews because they think they will be charged. This results in increased fatalities, increase in danger to rescue crews and increase in danger to the person needing rescue. Delaying calling creates a much more dangerous and time sensitive situation that turns what could be a straight forward rescue into a very complex call. So then, what if you say – who cares about these people – they are idiots. While I would disagree with you on that one – most people are not idiots they just make an honest mistake. Lets say for arguments sake that this is the case – they are actually idiots.

So if someone is heading out for a hike/bike/climb/snowshoe/insert activity here – are they thinking they might need a rescue? No of course not – no one ever thinks this (especially if you are an “idiot”). So they do not consider whether they will have to pay for a rescue or not. Hence – this is not a deterrent.

If someone were to need rescue multiple times, and they were fined multiple times, then they would probably think about the fine – similar to how I think I should probably go the speed limit so I don’t have to pay another $280 fine (but that’s another story). 99% of people only ever need rescue once – they learn their lesson – usually because they think they are going to die – and I can assure you thinking you might die is a pretty good way to learn a lesson. If we slap them with a fine – this will not affect their future behavior. They have already experienced a severe natural consequence to their actions – they do not need a logical consequence aka a fine (discussion of natural vs. logical consequences here).

Ok – lets say you don’t believe that, and we say screw it – lets charge that idiot. You now need a system for billing and collecting the money. Most people do not have the funds to pay for a rescue – we are pretty expensive. So now you must send the debt to collections, or sue that person – which all costs money. Most cases in the US where people have been charged the organizations have been unable to recover costs as people are not able to pay. I don’t know many people who have $50k to cover helicopter costs. Just like I don’t know many people who have $50k to cover that life-saving surgery they needed.

So – we have shown that charging for rescue does not create a deterrent, it increases fatalities, increase danger to subject and rescuers, and when it is enforced – organizations rarely actually get the funds. So this idea just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Finally – why do people care so much about this? Because it is in the news – and gets a lot of coverage because it makes a good news story. I would guess that one weekend in Vancouver dealing with drunken people has a much higher cost than our entire annual budget. The cost for policing, providing ambulance and fire response in the city for drunken party goers in one weekend has to be pretty huge – have you seen Granville Street on a Saturday? Why are we not calling for people to be charged for this? Because it is an everyday occurrence that is not in the news and its just part of our health care system.

We are a nation that believes in national health care and helping those in need. I think this belief of helping our fellow Canadians in need should extend to wilderness SAR as well.

Are there other methods of funding SAR? Yes definitely – there is military SAR, there is SAR paid for by insurance, there is government funded SAR. These are all methods worth exploring.

As well, we should be having conversations about the funding for BC Parks and AdventureSmart – as these programs help prevent people from needing SAR. So discussions around organizations or programs that provide education and preventative programs and how we can fund these as well should be had. We encourage people to come to BC and enjoy the great outdoors, but we should also be providing some education and preventative services along with that message.

Keep in mind also that NS SAR claims that less than 10% of all rescues involve someone who has gone out of bounds, so we are talking about a very small percentage of their year to year operations.

More information on charging for SAR operations:

Paying for Search and Rescue - Who pays for search and rescue operations? | HowStuffWorks

Paying for Wilderness Search and Rescue: Private Cost, or Public Obligation? - Backpacker

TL;DR - Even if you did charge people for rescuing them, chances are they simply wouldn't be able to pay, and then what? You are going to have to employ the help of collections, and the legal system to get them to pay?

[Traum]

Here is a news report from yesterday on the incident, with actual rescue footage:

Skiers 'felt really stupid' after getting stuck out of bounds on Cypress | CTV Vancouver News

[Ch28]

Originally Posted by Traum

Here is a news report from yesterday on the incident, with actual rescue footage:

Skiers 'felt really stupid' after getting stuck out of bounds on Cypress | CTV Vancouver News

Fucking morons

[- kT]

Originally Posted by meme405

1. Yes, they probably don't cover helicopter, expenses, but you would be surprised how much some of these rescuee's donate. There are numerous examples, also many of them go on to be very vocal in support of the SAR volunteers, and run fundraisers on behalf of the team. Some examples (just from the blog of NSSAR):

Donation from Rescuee - North Shore Rescue ? Vancouver Search and Rescue Team

Snowboarder raises $10,000 for NSR - North Shore Rescue ? Vancouver Search and Rescue Team

2. Taken from SAR's own blog:



Keep in mind also that NS SAR claims that less than 10% of all rescues involve someone who has gone out of bounds, so we are talking about a very small percentage of their year to year operations.

More information on charging for SAR operations:

Paying for Search and Rescue - Who pays for search and rescue operations? | HowStuffWorks

Paying for Wilderness Search and Rescue: Private Cost, or Public Obligation? - Backpacker

TL;DR - Even if you did charge people for rescuing them, chances are they simply wouldn't be able to pay, and then what? You are going to have to employ the help of collections, and the legal system to get them to pay?

I was going to quote the same article - and I agree with everything meme has said thus far too. everybody on here, twitter, whatever in an uproar saying they should be charged. Who are you to speak for the people volunteering their time, effort, safety, comfort and lives to do this? If they're so opposed to charging for rescue, then everybody bitching and moaning just needs to shut up and deal with it. When you decide to open up a SAR team, then you can charge if you see fit. it really is that simple. so sick and tired of people having an outcry about something that they have no zero knowledge over

*and on a side note, one article stated that their season passes had both been revoked - so they were penalized. on top of having to spend the night, in the dark, negative temps, avalanche territory, for over 12 hours, and no certainty of when rescue would come. that's punishment in itself. punishment for their own stupidity, yes, but punishment all the same

[Soundy]

Originally Posted by underscore

I'm always confused as to why everyone complains about people skiing out of bounds and being rescued by S&R. I'm failing to see how it's any different from any other outdoor activity that might leave you needing S&R.

Because the out-of-bounds areas on ski hills are specifically marked that way for a reason. The hills put in the effort to clearly delineate them, so as opposed to someone who follows a hiking trail and gets turned around, these people are consciously bypassing a barrier put there as a warning.

[underscore]

So how is that any different from a snowmobiler getting stuck? Everything they do is "out of bounds", as is most hiking and snowshoeing done on public property. Skiing out of bounds is effectively the same as back country skiing, it's easier to do but still requires the same prep.

[Hondaracer]

id say it's pretty rare to have to rescue a snowmobiler besides being burried in an avalanche as they are always in groups.

guy we used to ride with near Whistler had a few friends blow their engines way out in the backcountry, there is a heli service in whistler which will come pick up your sled but not the rider for $1500 in the back country, essentially long-line your sled out and you need to double back out, which in a lot of places can be treacherous as fuck

[RRxtar]

there was a story in kelowna couple of years ago. a couple kids went out 4x4ing by themself, unprepared, in January or February. had to call COSAR to pick them up in the middle of the night. next day they went back up to retrieve their truck. guess what. solo and unprepared and got in trouble again and had to call COSAR again to bring them home again. two days in a row.


if i recall at the time COSAR said that was a poor use of their resources.

[Mancini]

North Shore Search and Rescue has said that people in need of rescue have actively avoided them because they think they're going to end up with the bill.

[westopher]

Originally Posted by underscore

So how is that any different from a snowmobiler getting stuck? Everything they do is "out of bounds", as is most hiking and snowshoeing done on public property. Skiing out of bounds is effectively the same as back country skiing, it's easier to do but still requires the same prep.

The out of bounds near cypress, grouse and seymour is a lot of what I would call "full retard terrain."
So many cliff bands, creeks, shitty terrain and tight trees there is really no way you are getting down it properly.
The routes that people who know the backcountry take are much different than Johnny fratboy that just ducks a fence without knowing what the fuck is down below.
That said, I still think if someone is in danger, they should be saved, regardless of if they are an idiot for getting there or not. I'd bet all of NSSAR would agree with that.

[Ch28]

Originally Posted by Mancini

North Shore Search and Rescue has said that people in need of rescue have actively avoided them because they think they're going to end up with the bill.

I said it before and I'll say it again. If your life is in danger and you're actively avoiding rescue because you're scared of a bill then you deserve to die because you're nothing short of being a fucking moron.