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Hehe · 02-18-2017, 12:20 AM

So my son would be entering the kindergarten this year and I'm looking for some inputs. I've already registered with a few that I have access to, but I'd like to hear some actual inputs from other dads/moms on RS or past alumni exp.

I know there's a ranking, but the few top rated one are either not desirable IMO (all boy school, religious) or I find the metric to be a bit fishy. (for example, almost all the best public schools are in West Van, but a family attended in the highest ranked one, find it just ok and already switched to a private one)

Private/Public doesn't really matter. I believe strongly in education, cost is the last consideration for my kids' education.

Overall speaking, I find many top schools (especially private ones) to be a ground of parents' social life where they go to expand their connections. However, I'm only interested in the educational side. I want a school to have staff who are caring and know how to teach, bring the most out of a kid in their field of interest and guide them in the right direction.

So, any comment would be appreciated.

godwin · 02-18-2017, 02:51 AM

You can't have good education for kids if you are just interested in the educational side. Your kids will make friends and it is up to you to know if his/her friends and parents are sensible, it is not teachers' responsibility to screen kids / friends for you. Parental involvement is of utmost importance. Parents have to be involved with school activities in order to figure out if the teachers are performing at the standard the parents are expecting. It gives you insight to the teaching staff's dynamic... of course provided you are clued in to look for it in the first place. No school is perfect, networking with parents will allow you to get heads up to avoid teachers you think is under-performing or won't be good fit to your kid. I think that's where income level plays a factor.. parents who can afford to spend more time with the kids and at the school will more likely come out ahead just because they are better aware what's going on in the school.

It is only kindergarten.. kids don't have a fixed field of interest nor right direction at that age even at Elementary level. It is all about doing the basics and exposing them to the positives of the world.

Honestly BC has limited spectrum of schools.. I think Ontario / Quebec are way better for parents who really want to nurture their kids (it is not just grass is greener over the fence talk either). Just think of the variety of field trips one can go to in Ontario like nuclear power plant, tomato farm, tank factory, airplane factory, or Google etc.. those things really inspire young kids. We know how limited those things are in Vancouver. The toxic relationship between teachers and the government has really poisoned the atmosphere, I don't like how some teachers and parents got the kids involved in the politics of it all is really tragic and off putting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hehe

Overall speaking, I find many top schools (especially private ones) to be a ground of parents' social life where they go to expand their connections. However, I'm only interested in the educational side. I want a school to have staff who are caring and know how to teach, bring the most out of a kid in their field of interest and guide them in the right direction.

Hehe · 02-18-2017, 05:16 AM

Thanks for the reply. I think the part of parental guidance is very true. However, I just don't want to put him into a school where grades or certain achievements mean everything.

By education, I don't mean just academic, but also development (physically and mentally), discipline, social issues... etc.

Looking back at my own education, I don't think it was really good. I mean, I attended an elite private school after elementary/grade 7, and although I made a few very good life-long friends, we were not much more than a few spoiled brats back then and some of us continue to be today, especially a few trust-fund kids. And teachers didn't really care as long as we got good grades (by all means imaginable). If I didn't have my family to always point me the right direction, I'd probably be lost. Hence, as far as discipline and self-development go, it was a horrible time back in high school. If anything, that time taught me how to really solve problems "creatively" as we were nasty in so many ways to cheat the system.

Only teacher I remember truly guiding me was my grade 3-5 teacher who always encouraged us to develop what we were interested and even though he too cared about our grades, it was clear that it wasn't our priority. And this was back in Asia, where grades meant everything.

So, I'm hoping to not repeat the same thing on my kids. Because even though me and my brother turned out just fine, same thing can't be said to all our former classmates.

Infiniti · 02-18-2017, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hehe

Thanks for the reply. I think the part of parental guidance is very true. However, I just don't want to put him into a school where grades or certain achievements mean everything.

By education, I don't mean just academic, but also development (physically and mentally), discipline, social issues... etc.

Looking back at my own education, I don't think it was really good. I mean, I attended an elite private school after elementary/grade 7, and although I made a few very good life-long friends, we were not much more than a few spoiled brats back then and some of us continue to be today, especially a few trust-fund kids. And teachers didn't really care as long as we got good grades (by all means imaginable). If I didn't have my family to always point me the right direction, I'd probably be lost. Hence, as far as discipline and self-development go, it was a horrible time back in high school. If anything, that time taught me how to really solve problems "creatively" as we were nasty in so many ways to cheat the system.

Only teacher I remember truly guiding me was my grade 3-5 teacher who always encouraged us to develop what we were interested and even though he too cared about our grades, it was clear that it wasn't our priority. And this was back in Asia, where grades meant everything.

So, I'm hoping to not repeat the same thing on my kids. Because even though me and my brother turned out just fine, same thing can't be said to all our former classmates.

Will/are your children involved in extracurriculars such as sports, learning a musical instrument, other forms of fine art, after school learning programs...? There are many different factors that go into developing an individual's intellectual, emotional, physical, and social abilities. A good school is, in my opinion, only one facet of this process.

GLOW · 02-18-2017, 07:42 AM

got any teacher friends that you can ask to see if they know what the culture at the school(s) you're interested in is like or from a management stand point?

badly managed or unhealthy culture IMO can trickle down to the teachers' ability to do their job IMO. plus teachers network and know other teachers that may provide input.

just a thought.

godwin · 02-18-2017, 09:53 AM

well public schools with not much homework and heck even much of a grade will work just fine, if you say grades shouldn't be the primary focus.

Your definition of education is way too broad.. you won't find any school that teaches all you want well without your participation. It is that simple. North American model of education is more participatory on the parent side than the Asian model.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hehe

Thanks for the reply. I think the part of parental guidance is very true. However, I just don't want to put him into a school where grades or certain achievements mean everything.

By education, I don't mean just academic, but also development (physically and mentally), discipline, social issues... etc.

twitchyzero · 02-18-2017, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hehe

Because even though me and my brother turned out just fine, same thing can't be said to all our former classmates.

i'll hazard a guess that it mostly came down to parenting/the child's personality

most of my peers who were in the public school system in Vancouver and Burnaby turned out alright for the most part...just anecdotal evidence but unless things have changed drastically the last 20 years I wouldn't dwell too much on the decision. They'll have some bad teachers, and some really good ones. They may end up having a lazy ass counselor like I did, or a great admin followed by a shitty one.

Looking back at my high school class vs those who I later met in college/work force, we did not end up any worse than those who went through the private school system and I'm kind of glad I didn't end up going the private route when my parents considered enrolling me at VC. I'm grateful they made me do all these extra-curriculars which was significantly more impactful at nurturing than school ever did.

DragonChi · 02-18-2017, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hehe

Thanks for the reply. I think the part of parental guidance is very true. However, I just don't want to put him into a school where grades or certain achievements mean everything.

By education, I don't mean just academic, but also development (physically and mentally), discipline, social issues... etc.

Looking back at my own education, I don't think it was really good. I mean, I attended an elite private school after elementary/grade 7, and although I made a few very good life-long friends, we were not much more than a few spoiled brats back then and some of us continue to be today, especially a few trust-fund kids. And teachers didn't really care as long as we got good grades (by all means imaginable). If I didn't have my family to always point me the right direction, I'd probably be lost. Hence, as far as discipline and self-development go, it was a horrible time back in high school. If anything, that time taught me how to really solve problems "creatively" as we were nasty in so many ways to cheat the system.

Only teacher I remember truly guiding me was my grade 3-5 teacher who always encouraged us to develop what we were interested and even though he too cared about our grades, it was clear that it wasn't our priority. And this was back in Asia, where grades meant everything.

So, I'm hoping to not repeat the same thing on my kids. Because even though me and my brother turned out just fine, same thing can't be said to all our former classmates.

I'll chime in from the bottom 30% of that spectrum, according to high school rankings.

The high school I went to had fights every other day. Someone died by getting run over during a school fight. I would reckon that 50% of the population had trouble with the law by drinking and driving. It was common to hear of someone losing their license to DUIs.

It was a school where no one was really expected to attend post secondary either. I can think of maybe 10% of my class actually going, I think our graduating class population was 300.

I agree that a good school with have lots of field trips, personal development, practicing fairness in social skills (empathy, compassion through introspection), and maybe a class pet. Those are the things I remember in elementary that were super fun.

I feel that those school rankings have weight to them, but they aren't the whole picture. After speaking with colleagues (work/university) from the higher ranked high schools; they were expected to do well, their school fights were unheard of, and they were expected to attend post secondary. In comparison, they can barely think of 10 people that didn't attend post secondary. It was night and day compared to the school I went to. Find a high school that has an IB or AP program, maybe the elementries around will be better as well. Usually with those advanced programs, the kids or parents want to be there, and there is that inner drive to excel.

Edit: I also did well in high school, showed that I was willing to learn by staying after school to study, but the teachers didn't care, didn't even offer to inform me that there were other schools I could transfer to that had IB/AP programs. It was a subsequent struggle to self learn and finish post secondary. Compared to my PHD friend from Alberta that was placed in a special advanced high school.

LOL, now that I think of it, our only physics 12 teacher got fired for molesting a girl on the swim team. He was their swim coach. Fuck that place. Also a BC school, if it matters.

DragonChi · 02-18-2017, 07:14 PM

I'm surprised to hear that a private school gave such a negative experience. I've always thought that the teachers would care much more, and would be involved in education. After all, they are paid on performance, not a standardized agreement like public schools. One of the best profs in my post secondary went to a private school, got top grades, and is highly rated for his ability to teach. Maybe an outlier. I find that many of the higher achievers come from the more affluent regions, or at least middle class.

MG1 · 02-18-2017, 07:32 PM

We're talking Kindergarten here. Yes?

Hehe · 02-18-2017, 07:35 PM

^

Thanks for providing a different aspect of the view.

I think, as you said, the key is looking for a school with teachers who care about their students. If the kid shows potential in any particular way, teacher should try to guide them to explore and expand the frontier of their gift.

This is what I'm worried about. If a school doesn't take the perspective of an educator: to guide, discover and provide the path a pupil needs to advance in the future, and focus too much on metrics, the effect can be quite devastating.

My school, although "elite" by general consideration, really didn't care too much. A mate in my class was exceptionally gifted about math and the mechanical/engineering side of anything with wheels and wasn't that interested/good in any subject except math/physic, especially in literature. He'd come close to fail at grasping even the most basic concept of writing. Instead of encouraging him to advance further in engineering, the teachers actually forced him to address his low score issue with literature by... spending extra time on literature since his math/physic skill is already way way ahead of us and would score perfect 10 no matter what they throw him at test. He was learning some advance calculus/geometry shit when we were still working on algebra.
IMO, this suppressed his potential heavily and he was actually identified as just an "ok" student as his average scores were low.

Luckily, he followed his dream and moved to Italy (he holds Italian citizenship from his dad's family) after HS and now works as an engineer for Ferrari.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MG1

We're talking Kindergarten here. Yes?

Yes, but ideally I want him to stick with one school, so if I can get him into THE school now, why not.

Cr33pUh · 02-18-2017, 08:39 PM

IMO, unless your child has a developmental disorder/disability, the school will not matter. Don't get me wrong, there's going to be good and bad schools but the difference between each will not be big. As long as the school is in a good neighbourhood and not in a compton-like area, the school should be OK. The way your child develops is through experience and friends and that's all on the child.

Mr.HappySilp · 02-18-2017, 09:00 PM

Private is the way to go even if you are against certain aspect of it IE boy/girls only.

Meet two auntie and one have her son going to private school and you can tell he is more educated in terms of school. Also he seems better in terms of manner. The other one well, let's just say I don't think he will make it even through a job interview at McDonalds.

What I heard the most is that in private school the teachers actually grade your kids and not just teach your kids school work but also still like manner and respect. There are also homework that they need to do. While in public school I don't hear many good things about it. In public school there are hardly any homework.

Of course the parents have to put in the work too and actually teach their kids. My sister is planning to send her baby girl to private school. It just seems to give your kids a better head start and a better education overall.

Traum · 02-18-2017, 10:15 PM

I agree with most of what everyone else has already mentioned -- parental involvement, friends that your children hang out with, extracurricular activities and interests outside of school, etc., so I am not going to repeat any of that. That said, I hope the OP can let loose a bit on the parenting / early education stuff. We're in Canada, not Hong Kong or Korea where parents are absolutely insane for trying to get their kids whatever head start they can get. As the incredibly stupid Hongkonger saying goes -- winning at the starting line, or worse -- winning prior to ejaculation -- they just make absolutely no sense. Please don't turn into one of those overly concerned parent.

Having said that, in a past life I have worked with a large number of kids from both public schools and various private school in Vancouver, so I will share my experience / impressions a bit. I agree that having a good environment to foster the proper atmosphere helps, but in comparison to everything else, it is secondary.

Everything else being equal, I am of the opinion that West Point Grey Academy provides one of the best environments / atmospheres for a kid who has the potential to take advantage of that environment. At the high school level, they offer opportunities that few other schools can match. And by opportunities, what I really mean is opportunities for their school kids to explore and expand their horizons. A lot of these is done through school-organized functions and trips, including many to the overseas (mostly Europe, I seem to recall?). Their language program also seems to be quite good, as some of the WPGA kids that I've worked with went on to these school-organized Spanish and French exchange programs in Spain and France.

That is not to say WPGA students are all perfect. I had 2 WPGA kids where one was decidedly average, and another that was down right lazy and had little interest to learn. But the majority of WPGA kids that I've worked with were very bright, down-to-earth, had a far broader perspective on things than a typical kid at that age, etc. It is also no coincident that the parents of these smart kids were also friendly, successful, and cared about their children's education.

2 of the known down sides to WPGA are:

1) cost
2) parental involvement

In addition to tuition, I have heard that parents are almost expected to help with donation drives and such when these things arise. WPGA also seems to require / expect parents to help with various committees and school functions, and obviously that requires a huge commitment from the parents' side.

godwin · 02-19-2017, 12:35 AM

Exactly.. at this stage let the kid play, explore and be inspired. Make sure the kid and the kid's circle of friends are all vaccinated (it would suck if have to deal with death at this young age).. again parental screening needed for selection of friends AND parents.

I can see OP's point.. emotionally if one get the school that is great, there are less emotional trauma and the group of friends stay constant, longer.. but I warn against finding the unicorn because you never find one. Also I think being younger it is easier to handle school transfers.

Avoid violins as it damages their hearing and stresses their hands. Learn percussion instruments instead.

It is semi important to be in the right city for what you want to do.. by that I mean if you really think your kid should get into mini school in East Van, you shouldn't be living in Richmond. Thanks to our Premier, all parents are free to send their kids to whatever school they like, but they have to put in applications early!!! Think about it, the school performance results on the Fraser Institute results today, is the culmination of years of evolution of the school, it will likely not be the same when your kid reaches that school in the future. I bet with gentrification, most schools in the gentrified area like Britannia, Templeton, Gladstone etc will see a spark in performance a decade now as the toddlers there grow up in the community.

There are a lot of provincial resources like Family Houses that one should take advantage of. Again it requires parental participation.. building network and all. Remember it is not for your own benefit to build a social network around the school, it is for the kid's benefit ie knowing the strength and weaknesses of the school and be able to navigate in time. Basically it is all down to gossip.

One issue with West Point Grey is what's going to happen in the near future with the land lease running out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MG1

We're talking Kindergarten here. Yes?

bcrdukes · 02-19-2017, 06:58 AM

Hi Hehe,

I grew up in the Downtown East Side, and went to one of the schools in the poorest postal codes in Canada, and went to the lowest-ranked high school in all of BC according to the Fraser Institute.

Take a few moments and judge for yourself how I turned out. You be the boss in your child's future here.

Hehe · 02-19-2017, 08:28 AM

Wait... you mean the suave, comely, amatory and just unmistakeable ultimate hipster bcr-fucking-dukes?!?!

Hold on... let me google those schools because I gotta know!!!

Spoiler!

GLOW · 02-19-2017, 08:47 AM

what's wrong with having your kids end up like this

Spoiler!

MG1 · 02-19-2017, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Hi Hehe,

I grew up in the Downtown East Side, and went to one of the schools in the poorest postal codes in Canada, and went to the lowest-ranked high school in all of BC according to the Fraser Institute.

Take a few moments and judge for yourself how I turned out. You be the boss in your child's future here.

Yup, I went to Strathcona Elementary and Britannia Secondary. Strathcona was filled with underprivileged kids. 98% Asian background. Parental involvement was next to nothing, as most parents worked multiple jobs to make ends meet. However, just about every classmate I knew back then is successful today. Good careers and most importantly, down to earth. Strathcona is nowhere near what it used to be. As someone mentioned previously, the clientele is changing yet again due to gentrification, so who knows?

Although the Fraser Institute was not around back when I attended Britannia, the students were very high achievers........... at least one half of the population...........

As mentioned in the first few posts of the Vancouver History thread, It all boils down to the cultural background and attitude of the family toward education. Strathcona was considered to be one of the best schools for staff to be at. Principals enjoyed heading that school and the teachers had children eating out of their hands and hanging on their every word.

The Fraser Institute Report on schools. Damn right private schools do well. They better. Parents dish out a lot of money and expect results. Public schools take on everything, from children of losers, FAS, behavioural, ADD/ADHD, learning disabled, you name it. Considering what public schools have to deal with, it's pretty amazing how they can even survive.

What the Fraser Institute has to do is track progress within each school. Follow students from K through 12 to see how far they progress. That would give an indication of how well the school is doing. Taking a kid who can't tie their own shoelaces, spell their own name, or haven't been properly toilet trained....... gee, do private schools ever see that?

As for good schools, send your kid to West Van public schools. Not too many crack head parents in that part of the world. Not sure what the district's policy is on catchment area and such. I haven't had kids in school for a very long time, so things might have changed.

French Immersion school perhaps? In schools where there is a French Immersion component (dual track), it's the French side that bolsters the scores on the FSA (Foundation Skills Assessment). The English side is usually at or below par, whereas the French side is usually in the high 80% and above. Also remember there are three types of French Immersion. Early, late, and Program Cadre.

BTW, it's not the French language or even the fact the kids are learning a second language. A lot of it has to do with parental involvement - in the sense that those parents want what's best for their children, and that usually translate into success. As a side note, it doesn't hurt that the federal government kicks in a bit of money to French Immersion classes.

Anyway, why the hell am I posting so much crap?

twitchyzero · 02-19-2017, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godwin

Avoid violins as it damages their hearing and stresses their hands. Learn percussion instruments instead.

for reals?

I grew up as a percussionist and my eardrums are probably slightly messed up from it. No scientific facts to back this up, just my own observation that could just be a coincidence.

If anything, prolonged earphone use is probably worse than any music instrument.

I didn't like piano when I was younger; but I think if I have too much free-time later down the road I'd like to pick it up again.

tgill · 02-19-2017, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MG1

Yup, I went to Strathcona Elementary and Britannia Secondary. Strathcona was filled with underprivileged kids. 98% Asian background. Parental involvement was next to nothing, as most parents worked multiple jobs to make ends meet. However, just about every classmate I knew back then is successful today. Good careers and most importantly, down to earth. Strathcona is nowhere near what it used to be. As someone mentioned previously, the clientele is changing yet again due to gentrification, so who knows?

Anyway, why the hell am I posting so much crap?

I went to Strathcona too! for 3 weeks (as part of some future problem solvers something or another program)

Honestly I can as an east Van kid I don't regret a thing, in Vancouver proper things are a lot better now than where things were in the 90s. Addiction is higher for sure, but overall the environment has improved.

As someone who works with privileged children as a career, in both Japan and Vancouver, I wouldn't place my potential children in their place because I know I myself am in the position where I can participate in my future children's education.

Adversity and social challenge to a degree is a huge part of education, I didn't enjoy my position as a child, but it certainly made me a better and more well off person. The influence of the home in the early years is a huge determiner of your child's own outlook on education imo.

SolidPenguin · 02-19-2017, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godwin

Honestly BC has limited spectrum of schools.. I think Ontario / Quebec are way better for parents who really want to nurture their kids (it is not just grass is greener over the fence talk either). Just think of the variety of field trips one can go to in Ontario like nuclear power plant, tomato farm, tank factory, airplane factory, or Google etc.. those things really inspire young kids. We know how limited those things are in Vancouver.

There are Tank factories in Ontario?!

MG1 · 02-19-2017, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolidPenguin

There are Tank factories in Ontario?!

And, Diefenbunker!

http://diefenbunker.ca

godwin · 02-19-2017, 06:48 PM

Yup General Dynamics London Ontario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolidPenguin

There are Tank factories in Ontario?!

godwin · 02-19-2017, 08:45 PM

Unless a close family member or family can talk to the kid in French constantly, I would avoid French Immersion (especially in BC, there is a huge shortage of French teachers, so you could end up with some teachers with middling French but not that great teaching). Familial or peer support for practice is needed to be well and fluent, ie able to pass exams like below. Since the OP did his schooling in Taiwan, I assume French is probably not that fluent.

If you worried about future Government position, don't worry, the Gov pays for 1 year of intense language course at the entry position salary while you learn French. Just know you won't progress very far up the hierarchy if you fail that exam after that year.