Star Trek Discovery

[bobbinka]

You leave zero room for discussion/dialogue and jump right into accusations. Good job, mod.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by bobbinka

You leave zero room for discussion/dialogue and jump right into accusations. Good job, mod.

OK so who was right? Were you complaining about Burnham's relationships being "thrown in your face" or the gay relationship?

If the latter, what's your dialogue for that relationship being "thrown in your face"? I think it was an amazingly well written relationship, you can really tell how much they love each other, and how that love brought BOTH of them back from the brink. I don't want to get into spoilers here, but I want to know what is on your mind that this relationship has no reason to be there?

Because I have watched a lot of TV over the years, and almost every badly written show has a forced relationship. It's always the best looking youngest woman with the best looking youngest man. Sometimes it rarely works, usually it's just trash.

Hell there are plenty of bad relationships in the Star Trek series. Almost all of them really. Riker + every female who somehow can't resist wanting to fuck him is the most obvious, but Chief O'Brien + Kiko fucking hated each other on DS9. B'Elana Torres being hot for Chakote for some reason, and then marrying Tom Paris only to do nothing but argue every episode. Or Seven's weird attraction to Chakote which was so awkward when they finally got together. Or Neelix's weird creepy possesive jealous relationship with Kes... Trip + T'Pol was just fucking weird. You want to talk about "thrown in your face" that one is the worst of all.

There were some good ones though, I liked the respectful nature of Archer + T'Pol. Picard has had some great romances, but maybe non permanent characters shouldn't count, because it's easier to write these. I liked the Dax + Worf relationship (although Dax is non binary so maybe you thought that was thrown in your face too?). Odo + Kira started off really bad but had some nuance added. (again Odo isn't binary either so maybe that was too in your face as well?). Doctor + Seven was an interesting one too, though mostly one sided. But again, Doctor doesn't have a gender either, and Seven is basically asexual for most of Voyager. The ONE interesting Riker romance was with a transgender character, and the whole episode was about accepting people for their sexuality

I'm happy to open dialogue if you want. But to me when someone says something so off about one of the few VERY WELL written relationships in Star Trek history, the first conclusion I come to is that they're just homophobic. I am happy to give you a chance to prove me wrong if you want.

Now that I look back, it's interesting how Star Trek has always talked about gender identity and often homosexuality, but until now they had to obscure it. My guess is your reaction is the main reason why, and the fact that homophobes hadn't aged out of watching Star Trek by the 90's and 00's.

[bobbinka]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

OK so who was right? Were you complaining about Burnham's relationships being "thrown in your face" or the gay relationship?

If the latter, what's your dialogue for that relationship being "thrown in your face"? I think it was an amazingly well written relationship, you can really tell how much they love each other, and how that love brought BOTH of them back from the brink. I don't want to get into spoilers here, but I want to know what is on your mind that this relationship has no reason to be there?

Because I have watched a lot of TV over the years, and almost every badly written show has a forced relationship. It's always the best looking youngest woman with the best looking youngest man. Sometimes it rarely works, usually it's just trash.

Hell there are plenty of bad relationships in the Star Trek series. Almost all of them really. Riker + every female who somehow can't resist wanting to fuck him is the most obvious, but Chief O'Brien + Kiko fucking hated each other on DS9. B'Elana Torres being hot for Chakote for some reason, and then marrying Tom Paris only to do nothing but argue every episode. Or Seven's weird attraction to Chakote which was so awkward when they finally got together. Or Neelix's weird creepy possesive jealous relationship with Kes... Trip + T'Pol was just fucking weird. You want to talk about "thrown in your face" that one is the worst of all.

There were some good ones though, I liked the respectful nature of Archer + T'Pol. Picard has had some great romances, but maybe non permanent characters shouldn't count, because it's easier to write these. I liked the Dax + Worf relationship (although Dax is non binary so maybe you thought that was thrown in your face too?). Odo + Kira started off really bad but had some nuance added. (again Odo isn't binary either so maybe that was too in your face as well?). Doctor + Seven was an interesting one too, though mostly one sided. But again, Doctor doesn't have a gender either, and Seven is basically asexual for most of Voyager. The ONE interesting Riker romance was with a transgender character, and the whole episode was about accepting people for their sexuality

I'm happy to open dialogue if you want. But to me when someone says something so off about one of the few VERY WELL written relationships in Star Trek history, the first conclusion I come to is that they're just homophobic. I am happy to give you a chance to prove me wrong if you want.

Now that I look back, it's interesting how Star Trek has always talked about gender identity and often homosexuality, but until now they had to obscure it. My guess is your reaction is the main reason why, and the fact that homophobes hadn't aged out of watching Star Trek by the 90's and 00's.

I did not say there's no reason for their relationship.

I'm no where near as knowledgeable on trek/tv relationships as you are, but I'm not making comparisons to other tv show relationships to rank them or say whether they're better or worse. (Although I agree that the Neelix/Kes thing was strange)

Wow, so generous of you to make assumptions, label someone, and then offer them the chance to prove you wrong afterwards. You took one sentence with little to no context, constructed an entire argument for me so that you could argue against it, and then accused me of being homophobic. I also said I didn't like Burnham's acting, does that make me racist too?

I'm not going to turn this thread into an argument with you because I actually enjoy the show, so i'll lay out my thoughts and be done with this.

I don't have any issues with Stamets and Culber being gay. I never even brought up sexual orientation because it doesn't matter. My opinion is the same whether they are straight or aliens with other orientations.

I think that they have had good character and relationship development. To me, it feels like they're thrown in my face a lot because they get a lot more screentime (and therefore, character/relationship development) than the other supporting cast members. We're 30+ episodes in, but other crew members have barely gotten any development.

I really wanted Airiam to have gotten more, but realistically she only got 1 episode before she got airlocked. Nhan also only got that last episode before being booted. What about Rhys or Bryce? Could we not see more development of the Detmer/Owosekun friendship? No one's saying get rid of Stamets/Culber.

There was that scene recently where Stamets climbs into the tube to make repairs while injured/recovering. Culber arrives and gives him shit (which was hilarious). But here's the thing, Reno had to guide Stamets on the coms, which meant they could have literally gotten anyone else to climb up there. It wasn't like it had to be Stamets.

Conclusion: I see them more than other supporting members. I want to see more of other character/relationship developments too, but apparently this makes me a bigot.

Not everything has to be an argument. Just because people have different opinions than you doesn't make them wrong, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to label them.

[MG1]

"Salvage this, son of a bitch!"

Giorgiou, so bad ass..........

Her flashbacks in a different universe has me intrigued. Mulan on steroids, I tells ya.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by MG1

"Salvage this, son of a bitch!"

Giorgiou, so bad ass..........

Her flashbacks in a different universe has me intrigued. Mulan on steroids, I tells ya.

I 100% agree, she's one of the best cases of "chaotic evil" in a sci fi show that I can remember

This show is so good can't wait until tomorrow to watch the next ep!

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by bobbinka

I did not say there's no reason for their relationship.

I'm no where near as knowledgeable on trek/tv relationships as you are, but I'm not making comparisons to other tv show relationships to rank them or say whether they're better or worse. (Although I agree that the Neelix/Kes thing was strange)

Wow, so generous of you to make assumptions, label someone, and then offer them the chance to prove you wrong afterwards. You took one sentence with little to no context, constructed an entire argument for me so that you could argue against it, and then accused me of being homophobic. I also said I didn't like Burnham's acting, does that make me racist too?

I'm not going to turn this thread into an argument with you because I actually enjoy the show, so i'll lay out my thoughts and be done with this.

I don't have any issues with Stamets and Culber being gay. I never even brought up sexual orientation because it doesn't matter. My opinion is the same whether they are straight or aliens with other orientations.

I think that they have had good character and relationship development. To me, it feels like they're thrown in my face a lot because they get a lot more screentime (and therefore, character/relationship development) than the other supporting cast members. We're 30+ episodes in, but other crew members have barely gotten any development.

I really wanted Airiam to have gotten more, but realistically she only got 1 episode before she got airlocked. Nhan also only got that last episode before being booted. What about Rhys or Bryce? Could we not see more development of the Detmer/Owosekun friendship? No one's saying get rid of Stamets/Culber.

There was that scene recently where Stamets climbs into the tube to make repairs while injured/recovering. Culber arrives and gives him shit (which was hilarious). But here's the thing, Reno had to guide Stamets on the coms, which meant they could have literally gotten anyone else to climb up there. It wasn't like it had to be Stamets.

Conclusion: I see them more than other supporting members. I want to see more of other character/relationship developments too, but apparently this makes me a bigot.

Not everything has to be an argument. Just because people have different opinions than you doesn't make them wrong, and it certainly doesn't give you the right to label them.

The reason I came to the conclusion I did is that you used the term "relationship thrown in your face", a term which has been used to describe what bigots deem to be "unnecessarily gay characters" on TV for decades. It's such a weird phrase to describe two main characters who got major plotlines throughout the entire series. Like your issue is the relationship they have, not the characters themselves?

If you said you don't like Stamets or whatever, and think he's a way too full of himself because he controls the spore drive, sure, I can see that (which BTW is a character flaw written which he is starting to get over as his character develops, another sign of the great writing of this show). But just the way you wrote it, it was so familiar if you see what certain people talk about with TV all the time, it just led me to that conclusion.

I hope you can see that I was not calling you out for an opinion I disagree with. I don't care if you like Stamets or Culber or Tilly or Burnham or Joann or whoever else. I obviously disagree on Stamets and Culber, but I wouldn't care enough to argue about it. And no, it doesn't make you a bigot to not like those characters. It doesn't make you a "racist" to not like a black actor. Come on. But you specified that it was the relationship that was "thrown in your face" not the characters, storylines, or anything else. You complained about Burnham's acting, not the character, and that's fine too.

That's the conclusion I made based on your phrasing. You specified that the relationship is "being thrown in your face"

I don't know you personally, so I can't tell if you're backtracking or whatever. I assumed one way, and hope I was wrong. But what you are saying is 100% identical to what a bigot would say. That's all I'm saying.

I hope you can enjoy the rest of the show

[bobbinka]

They need to just make Burnham section 31

[MG1]

Engage, Punch It, Make it so, Take Us Out, Hit It...................

Let's Fly???

Original theme played during end credits...............

[MG1]

I thought she would rub the knob (or whatever it is) under the arm of the captain's chair.............


The Federation lives. Long live the Federation!



Me thinks season 4 will make or break this series. So far, it's been decent.

[mikemhg]

I still haven't watched this one, but I'm fascinated by the positive feedback you guys are giving it.

Seems like every Youtube "critique" for this show seems to call it "liberal", "woke", "leftwing garbage"

[SkinnyPupp]

I haven't watched the final episode.. The first few of the season were, IMO, among the best TV I've watched in a long time. Some eps were not nearly as good though. The Trill character and their relationships are fascinating. It's the way Trills should have been done (and they probably wanted to do it this way but couldn't) all along.

Also L-O-FUCKING-L at complaining about Star Trek being "liberal garbage"

Fucking STAR TREK! LEFTWING GARBAGE? It has literally been "liberal" and "woke" for 80 years! That's literally what it's about! A liberal fantasy utopia!

[Great68]

This season started out as the best season so far, but then was really disappointed with how the storyline ended (how the burn was explained). I thought it was going to be something WAY more dubious, but turned out to be really lame.

[68style]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

Fucking STAR TREK! LEFTWING GARBAGE? It has literally been "liberal" and "woke" for 80 years! That's literally what it's about! A liberal fantasy utopia!

This is true, can't be argued with. Outside of this new universe where there's no dilithium, there's no commerce of any sort and everyone has what they need to survive... it's definitely a utopia/ultimate form of UBI.

There's obvious modernism on the show, like so many powerful female characters, a black female lead, an asian female lead who can kick anyone's ass, a chubby woman who's cool and respected... they're covering ALL the bases (although, anyone who has watched it will realize after the first part of the first season they all ultimately go back to answering to white men for awhile hahaha) and we've been over the same sex couple thing in here... it's all fine, I didn't feel it was in your face at all and you realize it when you're watching but they leave it up to you to realize it. You'd have to be thinking pretty hard and conservatively to get upset about any of that stuff I think?

The only thing I can think of, and I don't know if it's the reason, but I think the episode that probably got on people's nerves a bit for overdoing it was in Episode... 4?... in the spore drive room... cuz I think it was painfully obvious to anyone after like 3 seconds of watching that both Adira's character and their partner are androgynous/gender neutral (which is fine/cool), but they went ahead anyway with a separate scene with Stamets where he refers to Adira as a girl and Adira stops him and corrects him about being non-binary/preferring they pronouns and he gazes at them lovingly and apologizes.

I mean... yay, more diverse characters can't really go wrong imho. By no means do I think the show is garbage, I love the show, but I personally wish they'd have given the audience a little bit of credit on that one and didn't take you 'out of the show' for a lesson -- could have just left their characters as they were presented and used pronouns and I think everyone would just get it.

[bobbinka]

Okay, so there's 1 planet to mine dilithium now. There's obviously not going to be enough for everyone everywhere. Sure, it's improved the situation temporarily, but doesn't really feel like the season's paid off, lol.

It's a shame they didn't give us a better look at the new Voyager, despite it being the lead on the attack/defense. Had to go back to search for it and only saw it in the distant background.

Originally Posted by Great68

This season started out as the best season so far, but then was really disappointed with how the storyline ended (how the burn was explained). I thought it was going to be something WAY more dubious, but turned out to be really lame.

Could've been pretty neat if Burnham self-destructing the time travel suit is what somehow caused the burn.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by 68style

This is true, can't be argued with. Outside of this new universe where there's no dilithium, there's no commerce of any sort and everyone has what they need to survive... it's definitely a utopia/ultimate form of UBI.

There's obvious modernism on the show, like so many powerful female characters, a black female lead, an asian female lead who can kick anyone' ass, a chubby woman who's cool and respected... they're covering ALL the bases (although, anyone who has watched it will realize after the first part of the first season they all ultimately go back to answering to white men for awhile hahaha) and we've been over the same sex couple thing in here... it's all fine, I didn't feel it was in your face at all and you realize it when you're watching but they leave it up to you to realize it. You'd have to be thinking pretty hard and conservatively to get upset about any of that stuff I think?

The only thing I can think of, and I don't know if it's the reason, but I think the episode that probably got on people's nerves a bit for overdoing it was in Episode... 4?... in the spore drive room... cuz I think it was painfully obvious to anyone after like 3 seconds of watching that both Adira's character and their partner are androgynous/gender neutral, but they went ahead anyway with a separate scene with Stamets where he refers to Adira as a girl and Adira stops him and corrects him about being non-binary/preferring they pronouns and he gazes at them lovingly and apologizes.

I mean... yay, more diverse characters can't really go wrong imho. By no means do I think the show is garbage, I love the show, but I personally wish they'd have given the audience a little bit of credit on that one and didn't take you 'out of the show' for a lesson -- could have just left them as they're presented and used pronouns and I think everyone would just get it.

It was an awkward scene for sure, but I'll just say if you've ever been in a situation where for the first time you misgender someone who is non binary, it can be REALLY awkward for you and them. I think the show is kind of "teaching" that it doesn't have to be awkward/painful/cringey, if you simply just respect everyone equally. Apologize, try to get it right (it might be hard if they've been identifying as a different gender for a long time), and move on with life. Stamets showed one way to handle it.. That's why people like him are respected, and people like Jordan Peterson and his followers aren't.

It's definitely totally a "2020's thing" and while some people and bigots might get all mad and say it's "in my face", I think it's just another step in the Star Trekdom of Star Trek. Pushing these kind of boundaries, getting us to think of this kind of thing, is what they've been doing for longer than most of us have been alive.

I thought it was brilliant using a Trill for that kind of scene. After all, Trills are non binary (at least the symbiont). Think about how even in "left wing garbage" Star Trek, Jadzia Dax's gender was basically a punchline for all the men who would be attracted to her, only to find out that "ewwwwwwww she used to be a he???"

Maybe these "leftwing garbage" people were expecting more of that, with no progress in our thinking after 30 years? Think about that. THIRTY YEARS! Time to grow up!