ICBC - massive losses - report coming Monday Jan 29

[Reeyal]

Originally Posted by Jmac

On average, two of the three highest insurance rates in Canada over the past decade have been the ones with exclusively private insurance (Ontario, Alberta). [...]

You may be right on the average insurance when compared to other provinces. However, I live in Alberta, and for me personally, I find it way lower after I moved from BC. I believe insurance premiums with private insurance companies are greatly based on your driving habits.

Many many years ago, I was paying $2700/yr for my car. For the same car, after I moved to AB, insurance companies were quoting $3500/yr for the same comparable coverage. The huge jump was because I was under 25, as explained by the agents. As soon as I turned 25 a couple of months later, my premium had dropped to $1100. By the time I got rid of the same car years later, I was paying $800. During the time I owned the car, I had 1 comprehensive claim and 1 ticket on my driving record.

[smoothie.]

waiting for all the anti-private people to post in here like:

"no, itll be more expensive"
"icbc has better processes for claims"
etcetc

If they do it right, and not re-hire icbc folk (which, lets face it, they might) it'll be a good thing, and way overdue.

[MarkyMark]

I keep hearing about how much worse private insurance rates are, but I have a hard time believing private insurance will be more than ICBC for those of us who have 15-20 years of driving with no accidents/minimal tickets.

[J____]

huge loss? then declare bankruptcy and shut down already. No one likes you icbc.

[Berzerker]

Why isn't anyone pointing out the fact that it's the government that has made ICBC broke. It's NOT the claims and the payouts. It's the fact the government's have been using ICBC as a piggy bank for years. ICBC used to be a hugely profitable company. Then the governments couldn't resist the piggy bank and starting using the money. Now it's broke because it can't actually pay out the claims when all the money has been siphoned off and used elsewhere.

Berz out.

[dapperfied]

Let them rot in hell.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by ssjGoku69

I was under the impression (based on previous threads) that private insurance premiums would be cheaper (because of increased competition), but it could be painful to get the offending party's insurance company to pay?

Can someone with experience with free-market auto insurance include their 2 cents on getting claims paid?

I would be cheaper for people with perfect records. But if you have one speeding or an accident know one is going to want to touch you with a 10 foot pole.

[The Producer]

governments blaming previous governments every damn time.

it's THE government - you're just new employees. Put the billion dollars back, and let's move on.

though I'm certainly in favour of capping settlements. accidents aren't lotto wins.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Berzerker

Why isn't anyone pointing out the fact that it's the government that has made ICBC broke. It's NOT the claims and the payouts. It's the fact the government's have been using ICBC as a piggy bank for years. ICBC used to be a hugely profitable company. Then the governments couldn't resist the piggy bank and starting using the money. Now it's broke because it can't actually pay out the claims when all the money has been siphoned off and used elsewhere.

THANK YOU, Berz! While I am skeptical of how convenient the financial loss came out to be -- with the Libs takning out $1B while the crown corp suffers a $1.3B loss -- the facts for anyone who has really been following ICBC's financial demise knew that the former Liberals gov has been milking ICBC's $$$$ for all it is worth. And now, I see all kinds of people saying it is ICBC's fault that they can't stop a greedy government from reaching into its cookie jar and stealing all the goodies? Come on, people! Know the real and root cause of the issue, and direct your fury there!

[ScizzMoney]

I pay $1600 a year to insure my 2013 BMW 3 series sedan. I'm 35 years old, clean driving record. This is in Calgary, not sure what I'd pay in BC.

[Qmx323]

Originally Posted by Traum

THANK YOU, Berz! While I am skeptical of how convenient the financial loss came out to be -- with the Libs takning out $1B while the crown corp suffers a $1.3B loss -- the facts for anyone who has really been following ICBC's financial demise knew that the former Liberals gov has been milking ICBC's $$$$ for all it is worth. And now, I see all kinds of people saying it is ICBC's fault that they can't stop a greedy government from reaching into its cookie jar and stealing all the goodies? Come on, people! Know the real and root cause of the issue, and direct your fury there!

Can there only be one reason why ICBC is going broke?

A dam doesn't break because one man pissed a few miles upriver, but if a shitload of shops are over billing ICBC for their work I can see how that can be a major contributing factor.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by The Producer

though I'm certainly in favour of capping settlements. accidents aren't lotto wins.

On a humanitarian level, I cannot agree to that. What we need is a more stringent audit system to stop and prevent fraud.

That and a premium system that reflects the driver's risk and costs of repair for the insured vehicle. Our high risks drivers are paying too little right now, and insurance premiums are way too low for the high end cars.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Qmx323

Can there only be one reason why ICBC is going broke?

A dam doesn't break because one man pissed a few miles upriver, but if a shitload of shops are over billing ICBC for their work I can see how that can be a major contributing factor.

Of course there are a multitude of reasons for ICBC's financial woes. The insurance corp is far, far, far from perfect, and many things need to be cleaned up.

Looking at the math that AG David Eby has presented though -- $1.3B loss, with the Libs transferring almost $1B into provincial revenues and not disclosing that until it gets uncovered by the NDP now. Out of the $1.3B pie, is $1B the bigger piece? or is $300M bigger?

If I were going to direct my anger at something, I am going to channel 77% of it to the Libs, and 23% to ICBC. Judging by the general public's comments, however, it seems like well over 1/2 of the people with pitchforks are crying for the demolishing of ICBC and introduce private insurance.

[Harvey Specter]

Rate hikes, mobility tax, gas tax, hell lets just hike and tax everything to pay for the clutterfuck called ICBC.

[320icar]

Originally Posted by The Producer

though I'm certainly in favour of capping settlements. accidents aren't lotto wins.

I was in an at fault accident about a decade ago. Somewhat minor, no real injury. The air bag did deploy in the other car though. Neither person in the other car was wearing their seatbelt (typical Richmond. The firefighters on scene took note of it).

About 3 years later I got a letter from ICBC saying I was being sued for over $2,000,000 for damages. Obviously the letter just said ‘don’t worry, our lawyers are on it and if you don’t hear anything further, we settled’.

A few thousand for repair somehow turns into over $2mil. Society is fucked and do treat it like a lottery

[yray]

the more I look at it, this maybe a move by the libs to fuck ndp over.

Declare surplus just before election, if libs win, throw it back into icbc and its good news. Lose the election and ndp will of course spend it on stupid shit to 'win the votes' now ndp is left with a steaming pile of shit LOL.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by 320icar

I was in an at fault accident about a decade ago. Somewhat minor, no real injury. The air bag did deploy in the other car though. Neither person in the other car was wearing their seatbelt (typical Richmond. The firefighters on scene took note of it).

About 3 years later I got a letter from ICBC saying I was being sued for over $2,000,000 for damages. Obviously the letter just said ‘don’t worry, our lawyers are on it and if you don’t hear anything further, we settled’.

A few thousand for repair somehow turns into over $2mil. Society is fucked and do treat it like a lottery

I hope the other party got a hefty cut to their payouts. If you are not wearing your seatbelts, you owe it to yourself and your stupidity for your injuries.

[prudz]

Originally Posted by Manic!

Do you know how much private insurance costs in other provinces?

Far less than here.

List of vehicles with TD Meloche Monex in Alberta, full coverage, rental etc

-Jeep Patriot
-3 series bmw
-boosted honda prelude
-r6

total yearly premium for all 4 with a clean record, 1 speeding ticket. $1300 a year. Yes, only $1300 for all 4 of those per year. That's what I was paying in Alberta.

Out here... 2000 integra, basic liability, lowest insurance possible. WITH 40% discount!!

$2220 ($185 a month)

What a joke.

[teggy604]

Originally Posted by Berzerker

Why isn't anyone pointing out the fact that it's the government that has made ICBC broke. It's NOT the claims and the payouts. It's the fact the government's have been using ICBC as a piggy bank for years. ICBC used to be a hugely profitable company. Then the governments couldn't resist the piggy bank and starting using the money. Now it's broke because it can't actually pay out the claims when all the money has been siphoned off and used elsewhere.

Berz out.

Yup. NDP made icbc non profit so all money goes back into icbc, then the liberals came along and changed that and drained icbc dry. I believe I read somewhere that icbc still owns a lot of assets as well to generate income. Time to sell those off and return icbc back to non profit.

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by Berzerker

Why isn't anyone pointing out the fact that it's the government that has made ICBC broke. It's NOT the claims and the payouts. It's the fact the government's have been using ICBC as a piggy bank for years. ICBC used to be a hugely profitable company. Then the governments couldn't resist the piggy bank and starting using the money. Now it's broke because it can't actually pay out the claims when all the money has been siphoned off and used elsewhere.

Berz out.

I did ... just saying

[Hakkaboy]

Originally Posted by Traum

Of course there are a multitude of reasons for ICBC's financial woes. The insurance corp is far, far, far from perfect, and many things need to be cleaned up.

Looking at the math that AG David Eby has presented though -- $1.3B loss, with the Libs transferring almost $1B into provincial revenues and not disclosing that until it gets uncovered by the NDP now. Out of the $1.3B pie, is $1B the bigger piece? or is $300M bigger?

If I were going to direct my anger at something, I am going to channel 77% of it to the Libs, and 23% to ICBC. Judging by the general public's comments, however, it seems like well over 1/2 of the people with pitchforks are crying for the demolishing of ICBC and introduce private insurance.

I don't have all the facts, but it sounds more that the Liberals took out the $1B over time of "excess capital", meaning that when ICBC was profitable, Liberal took away their surplus over the years

If that's the case, then the the $1.3B loss is all on ICBC since that's the projected loss for this fiscal year.

But yes, if Liberals did not take the $1B, then ICBC are better equiped to absorb this year's $1.3B loss, but that does not mean the next year is all of a sudden going to be better without major changes or that they are "only" $300M to blame

[snowball]

The liberals were out to destroy ICBC and make it so bad that everyone would beg for privatization. Same thing they've been trying to do with public education for 15 years. Don't privatize, we'll just be giving them what they've been wanting to do all along.

[Traum]

IIRC, the way the prev Liberals gov was taking money out of ICBC's reserves was at least against ICBC's own rules / bylaws, or possibly against the provincial laws. I seem to remmeber that ICBC is governed by laws requiring them to maintain a certain threshold of money on hand, as a hedge of some sort against their possible and outstanding liabilities (ie. the claims). However, the way the Libs were taking money out made it such that the ICBC reserves fell below the legally mandated amounts.

When the Libs did that, wasn't that breaking the law? How can they not be held accountable for it, either morally or criminally?

[Jmac]

Originally Posted by Traum

IIRC, the way the prev Liberals gov was taking money out of ICBC's reserves was at least against ICBC's own rules / bylaws, or possibly against the provincial laws. I seem to remmeber that ICBC is governed by laws requiring them to maintain a certain threshold of money on hand, as a hedge of some sort against their possible and outstanding liabilities (ie. the claims). However, the way the Libs were taking money out made it such that the ICBC reserves fell below the legally mandated amounts.

When the Libs did that, wasn't that breaking the law? How can they not be held accountable for it, either morally or criminally?

Liberals changed the law in 2010.

The cash reserved also generated fairly substantial gains via investment, so if you’re making ~10% on $1B every year instead of borrowing money and paying interest ...

I covered it in previous threads, but prior to the law change, ICBC rates were pretty much static. It didn’t take long for ICBC rates to balloon to the highest in the country, no coincidence.

[RRxtar]

everyone likes to blame the liberals for pulling cash out of icbc.

how about lets see the real numbers

ICBC net profit for each year, plus a list of the amount of money the liberals allegedly pulled out each year.

i may be wrong but i think the number that keeps getting thrown around as to what the liberals pulled out was the amount over several years, not just in the last year. $1.3billion in deficits in one year, a lot of that is on ICBC.

and for what its worth, i fully believe claim costs are a big factor in this. how much more expensive is it to fix a minor fender bender with LED lights, radars and cameras and, fancy materials, etc compared to 10 years ago? plus everyone looks at a fender bender as winning the lottery and they deserve their $10,000 for 'suffering' a stiff neck for 10 minutes.


edit: i posted this in the last thread, after doing some research on the topic

Cost of claims has doubled from 3billion to 5.9billion from 2013 to 2017. At the same time, Revenue has rose from 3.9billion to 6.1billion. I think that is a much bigger factor than the couple hundred million the government transferred out per year.

It should also be noted that ICBC has been allowed to invest capital and I believe has had a higher return on that investment than the money transferred to the government.