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02-15-2020, 12:55 AM
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#1 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
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| Is it fraud if i 'forge' documents that existed at one time and are true?
So I got audited for empty home tax for 2018. Mom is owner and I the permitted occupant.
I have a shredder at home and I usually shred any documents once I see them. This obviously became a problem.
They want 6 months of utility history, telus only provides like 4month end of 2018(online) so is it illegal if I photoshop 2 more months? Yes i could probably ask telus but it would take time and I only have 2 weeks left to finish this audit.
Homeowners insurance - is under my mom(owner)name. Same with hydro.
They want MSP invoices but my work paid for mine so I dont have any. If I forged some it would still be true no?
They want my notice of assessment which was sent to a different address(my previous home) at the time but I actually lived here and my t4s and when I actually file the taxes used this address. That's the fault of CRA for not updating my address according to address I filed my taxes with.
I have already changed hydro and insurance to my name and my bank account to avoid this problem in the future but if you think about it, the audit is a fucking joke because the reasons why I dont have these documents could be used in a way for people to pretend they live at a home. In my case, it would be easier to 'prove' my mom lives at the house instead of me which is not the case. What a waste of my time and tax payers money. Not to be racist/stereotypical but the asians who own all these empty homes are way to smart and the system way too easy to manipulate.
I could walk into an icbc right now and ask them to change my address to x. They have no procedure to authentic and they just change it. Yet, ICBC info is one of the primary documents needed for this audit. Thankfully its one of the real info's I have but what a joke.
I wrote in the feedback section that my tracked amazon orders and skipthedishes order would be more authentic proof then any of the other documents they require.
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02-15-2020, 01:13 AM
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#2 | | To me, there is the Internet and there is RS
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Just call telus.
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Until the lions have their own historians, the history of the hunt will always glorify the hunter. | |
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02-15-2020, 02:23 AM
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#3 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic!  Just call telus. | It's not just the telus one. They want two different types so even if I gave them telus,
They want my CRA notice of assessment which I don't have but can easily photoshop from a different one. Mind you it did exist at one point so is it fraud?
or
They also want my MSP invoice which I can also easily make and would be true to the 'facts'. etc etc
The lady on the helpline said yes these cases happen often especially like UBC Students who their parents pay everything for. but if you cant provide the paperwork you may get dinked with the tax. WTF?_?
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02-15-2020, 06:11 AM
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#4 | | I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ottawa
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by geeknerd So I got audited for empty home tax for 2018. Mom is owner and I the permitted occupant.
I have a shredder at home and I usually shred any documents once I see them. This obviously became a problem.
They want 6 months of utility history, telus only provides like 4month end of 2018(online) so is it illegal if I photoshop 2 more months? Yes i could probably ask telus but it would take time and I only have 2 weeks left to finish this audit.
Homeowners insurance - is under my mom(owner)name. Same with hydro.
They want MSP invoices but my work paid for mine so I dont have any. If I forged some it would still be true no?
They want my notice of assessment which was sent to a different address(my previous home) at the time but I actually lived here and my t4s and when I actually file the taxes used this address. That's the fault of CRA for not updating my address according to address I filed my taxes with.
I have already changed hydro and insurance to my name and my bank account to avoid this problem in the future but if you think about it, the audit is a fucking joke because the reasons why I dont have these documents could be used in a way for people to pretend they live at a home. In my case, it would be easier to 'prove' my mom lives at the house instead of me which is not the case. What a waste of my time and tax payers money. Not to be racist/stereotypical but the asians who own all these empty homes are way to smart and the system way too easy to manipulate.
I could walk into an icbc right now and ask them to change my address to x. They have no procedure to authentic and they just change it. Yet, ICBC info is one of the primary documents needed for this audit. Thankfully its one of the real info's I have but what a joke.
I wrote in the feedback section that my tracked amazon orders and skipthedishes order would be more authentic proof then any of the other documents they require. | Its probably a bad idea to engage in activities that involve the verb "forge".
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02-15-2020, 08:10 AM
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#5 | | ninja edits your posts without your knowledge
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Vancouver
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by geeknerd It's not just the telus one. They want two different types so even if I gave them telus,
They want my CRA notice of assessment which I don't have but can easily photoshop from a different one. Mind you it did exist at one point so is it fraud?
or
They also want my MSP invoice which I can also easily make and would be true to the 'facts'. etc etc
The lady on the helpline said yes these cases happen often especially like UBC Students who their parents pay everything for. but if you cant provide the paperwork you may get dinked with the tax. WTF?_? | Your CRA NOA is available on online if you've signed up for MyAccount: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...dividuals.html
If you haven't, you can sign up today and have your account fully set up in a week. They have to mail you a security code for you to gain full access.
To answer your question, yes, it is absolutely fraud to forge documents that are not the originals.
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02-15-2020, 08:49 AM
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#6 | | RS has made me the bitter person i am today!
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Your gonna have to jump thru theses hoops and ladders to prove that you lived there. Its just the way it is so id get on that phone and request all the documents that you need. Yes it may take awhile for Telus to send you those invoices but your gonna have to wait regardless cause setting up your CRA account will take awhile. like CRS said 1 week at best.
You have 2 weeks to finish your audit then what happens? you get pegged interest? Its my understanding and me also recently dealing with CRA last month is that if you provide everything that they need, everything including interest will be reversed. Goodluck
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02-15-2020, 10:11 AM
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#7 | | I STILL don't get it
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The person on the other end of the empty homes tax audit is just an employee too; They're likely working on other cases simultaneously. With that in mind, the best route would be to just ask for an extension to the deadline and request the documents from the original source. I don't see why reason why the city employee would deny an extension.
As to CRA not updating the address on your filed tax return, you can update the address online via CRA myAccount or by mailing Form RC325.
To hammer the point to you again. Do not forge those missing documents.
Last edited by ssjGoku69; 02-15-2020 at 10:18 AM.
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02-15-2020, 10:21 AM
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#8 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by CRS Your CRA NOA is available on online if you've signed up for MyAccount: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...dividuals.html
If you haven't, you can sign up today and have your account fully set up in a week. They have to mail you a security code for you to gain full access.
To answer your question, yes, it is absolutely fraud to forge documents that are not the originals. | I did sign up but my NOA is issued to an address that I lived prior even though the taxes filed for that NOA was filed under my current address.
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02-15-2020, 10:24 AM
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#9 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
Posts: 1,149
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjGoku69 The person on the other end of the empty homes tax audit is just an employee too; They're likely working on other cases simultaneously. With that in mind, the best route would be to just ask for an extension to the deadline and request the documents from the original source. I don't see why reason why the city employee would deny an extension.
As to CRA not updating the address on your filed tax return, you can update the address online via CRA myAccount or by mailing Form RC325.
To hammer the point to you again. Do not forge those missing documents. | yeah I've already updated my address with them when I called to create an account for this but it doesnt change the addresses on the prior stuffs they sent me and the audit is for 2018 
The auditor didnt feel like what I sent during the first round was enough so in the 2nd round they allow you to type a explanation so I basically explained this whole situation and hoping for the best but I'm preparing for the worst case scenario.
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02-15-2020, 10:26 AM
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#10 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
Posts: 1,149
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceIntegraRS Your gonna have to jump thru theses hoops and ladders to prove that you lived there. Its just the way it is so id get on that phone and request all the documents that you need. Yes it may take awhile for Telus to send you those invoices but your gonna have to wait regardless cause setting up your CRA account will take awhile. like CRS said 1 week at best.
You have 2 weeks to finish your audit then what happens? you get pegged interest? Its my understanding and me also recently dealing with CRA last month is that if you provide everything that they need, everything including interest will be reversed. Goodluck | The city of vancouver enforces this tax and in my letter it says failure to due so may result in imposition of the tax and fines upto $10 000 perday.
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02-15-2020, 10:55 AM
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#11 | | I *heart* Revscene.net very Muchie
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RS never ceases to entertain
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| | | This post thanked by: | B!tch, Ch28, Infiniti, jbsali, Lancerion, Presto, Purely, SFU_wmc, stewie, StylinRed, tiger_handheld, TOS'd, twitchyzero, underscore, v_tec, Wetordry, will068 | |
02-15-2020, 01:00 PM
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#12 | | I answer every Emotion with an emoticon
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errrt forging the MSP is a huge problem buddy. Once you forge documents instead of getting new ones, you open a bigger cans of worms. Go thru the steps cause fraud can be a pain in the ass on your CRA records for the next 50+ years and you certainly don't wnat that.
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02-15-2020, 02:41 PM
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#13 | | 14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
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I got audited last year. I’m the owner and my place was being rented out.
Dont worry so much about the deadlines. I was at least 6 months past the respond due date because they couldn’t reach me to ask for proof that it was being rented out. I just provided what they needed and that’s that. No penalties
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02-15-2020, 04:52 PM
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#14 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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Hey man, my cousin forged his name on my school time table so he could get amazon prime student, but this is not the same thing at all.
I wouldn't forge any government documents. Remember, once you give it to them, they have it on file FOREVER. Fraud is no joke, you can go to jail.
btw. is the empty homes tax only for Vancouver, what about Richmond?
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02-15-2020, 04:54 PM
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#15 | | Even when im right, revscene.net is still right!
Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Vancouver
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by PeanutButter Hey man, my cousin forged his name on my school time table so he could get amazon prime student, but this is not the same thing at all.
I wouldn't forge any government documents. Remember, once you give it to them, they have it on file FOREVER. Fraud is no joke, you can go to jail.
btw. is the empty homes tax only for Vancouver, what about Richmond? | There's a provincial speculation & vacancy tax.
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02-15-2020, 11:57 PM
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#16 | | Wunder? Wonder?? Wander???
Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: gvrd
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Provide the four months worth of documentation before the two week deadline with a letter stating the other two months will sent once you receive them from Telus.
No fraud and within deadline.
Am I misunderstanding empty home tax? If your mom is owner, she is getting audited. As tenant you are providing proof it wasnt empty. Wouldn't your mom paying your home insurance be proof you live there? If you weren't living there she wouldn't be paying it?
Bit late for this scenario but since you like to shred, you may want to invest in a scanner to keep copies of legal documents. Much cheaper than criminal conviction for fraud.
Last edited by B!tch; 02-16-2020 at 12:15 AM.
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02-16-2020, 12:12 AM
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#17 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
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But is it really fraud though? Like if I have an MSP invoice infront of me and decided to recreate perfectly from scratch and print it out and file that in, is it fraud even though all the information is same and true?
yeah yeah...ill just take the long way of endless phone calls and being put on hold.
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02-16-2020, 12:23 AM
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#18 | | Wunder? Wonder?? Wander???
Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: gvrd
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If you think it is not fraud, why ask the brilliant, perfect, never wrong, holy than thou members of a car forum.  (except for PB, someone is going to report him to his professor)
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02-16-2020, 10:20 AM
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#19 | | I STILL don't get it
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It's just that the upsides (you skip the waiting) don't outweigh the potential downsides (forgery of documents and tax penalties on your parents).
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02-16-2020, 10:39 AM
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#20 | | RS Veteran
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Thread and member of the year.
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02-16-2020, 02:06 PM
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#21 | | Rs has made me the woman i am today!
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They are auditing and asking you for pieces of supporting documentation to prove its not empty (you have nothing to hide). These guys are doing their jobs, just like anyone of us with end goal to make a living and put food on the table. Yes, some of the documentation they ask could be/is stupid and irrelevant; however, the individual is following a policy they probably don't have control over with, so I am unsure why you are saying they are wasting your time/money. For all we know the person auditing you could be a 1st year junior just starting out their careers trying to make a living.
If you think it doesn't matter and just phohoshop and forge, by all means go for it, no one is stopping you; however, if they decide to dig deeper and find you are lying, this won't be the first or the last time you will see audits.
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02-17-2020, 02:44 AM
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#22 | | I bringith the lowerballerith
Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: vancouver
Posts: 1,149
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Originally Posted by Euro7r They are auditing and asking you for pieces of supporting documentation to prove its not empty (you have nothing to hide). These guys are doing their jobs, just like anyone of us with end goal to make a living and put food on the table. Yes, some of the documentation they ask could be/is stupid and irrelevant; however, the individual is following a policy they probably don't have control over with, so I am unsure why you are saying they are wasting your time/money. For all we know the person auditing you could be a 1st year junior just starting out their careers trying to make a living.
If you think it doesn't matter and just phohoshop and forge, by all means go for it, no one is stopping you; however, if they decide to dig deeper and find you are lying, this won't be the first or the last time you will see audits. | When I started the thread I didn't really have the intentions to create these documents but it just got me thinking about the whole process. If you think about it, when we submit documents, they are commonly photocopies of the original. If I lose the original and do not have it anymore; if I submit a photocopy, is it fraud? In my mind, its not much different if I recreate a document that I truly know once existed and is true to its contents.
I'm saying its a waste of time because the combination of documents they are asking for can so easily be manipulated and there is no real authenticity to the audit.
You have to provide a bcid/driver license + any 3 of these documents.
Notice of assessment
ICBC Vehicle insurance
MSP invoice
Utility bills
Correspondence from a government
None of these documents prove that the home is empty except for utility bills and thats if you dig deeper into usage details.
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02-17-2020, 09:06 AM
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#23 | | RS has made me the bitter person i am today!
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If you truly believe your not commiting fraud. Do it. Sounds like you mind is made up. Let us know how it goes though.
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02-17-2020, 10:09 PM
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#24 | | I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
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yes. yes it is.
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02-17-2020, 10:39 PM
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#25 | | What hasn't Killed me, has made me more tolerant of RS!
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| Quote:
Originally Posted by geeknerd When I started the thread I didn't really have the intentions to create these documents but it just got me thinking about the whole process. If you think about it, when we submit documents, they are commonly photocopies of the original. If I lose the original and do not have it anymore; if I submit a photocopy, is it fraud? In my mind, its not much different if I recreate a document that I truly know once existed and is true to its contents.
I'm saying its a waste of time because the combination of documents they are asking for can so easily be manipulated and there is no real authenticity to the audit.
You have to provide a bcid/driver license + any 3 of these documents.
Notice of assessment
ICBC Vehicle insurance
MSP invoice
Utility bills
Correspondence from a government
None of these documents prove that the home is empty except for utility bills and thats if you dig deeper into usage details. | This is how a criminal mind works... One convincing oneself what they're doing isn't fraud even though in their mind they very well know it is... (Otherwise, why would you even ask?)
I highly suggest you to go the legit route to avoid future problems with the system. Just my 2 cents.
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