EV charging in Condo and strata electricity rate

[ssjGoku69]

Step 1 pricing is 9.41 cents per kWh
Step 2 pricing is 14.10 cents per kWh

Seems like OP is paying a non-existent Step 3 rate. However, since the rates of electricity is continuially rising, OP's 20 cents per kWh might be the step 2 pricing in like 2026

[winson604]

No chargers in our building unfortunately (3 year old building). Installing would be difficult because no extra spaces and have to consider how much load we can handle if you want to install one for yourself. So far we only have 1 car that's EV and we approved them to just plug into the closest outlet so charging at 120V, we're charging them $30/month but reserve the right to increase if we realize down the road it costs us way more. We aren't overly concerned about it right now and are not rushing to try and find a way to measure what their usage is but in due time as EV's get more popular I'm sure we'll look into it more.

[inv4zn]

This thread is why I continue to pay $1.70/L, while crying inside.

There's no winning.

Buy an EV? Have fun charging regularly, or going long distances!
Buy a car? Have fun getting raped at the pump! Over $55K? Lube up for tax!
Buy a bike? Have fun looking for it on craigslist in a week!
Walk? Live closer to work? Sure, give me $250K for a downpayment on a shoebox!
Take the bus? ...yeah no thanks.

[CRS]

Which companies are you guys using to have the installation for your buildings?

[nabs]

Originally Posted by Y2K_o__o

I would question what's $0.20/KWhr based on?
Somehow the number has to be reasonable?

Also, a $4000 unit install must have meant that they pulled another service from Hydro for it, at a higher amperage, which kind of makes sense as to why you would be paying the extra 6 cents per kWh.

This is just my guess. However the question should be easily answered by strata.

[Eff-1]

I'm our strata president and I spent 6 months almost working on our EV policies. It's not easy stuff.

In our case, we were lucky, the building was constructed with EV charging from the beginning in some spaces. They are all connected to a single meter, so we can't measure individual usage. Therefore we charge a flat annual fee of $400 per year.

Choosing the fee is hard because some cars use more power than others, and different people drive different amounts. Ultimately, there will always be some people subsidizing others, unless you can install individual meters.

Residents who bought pre-sale were given the opportunity to add a level 2 charger to their parking stall for $2,000 extra. The developer also made them sign an agreement paying the strata $400 per year for power use.

For owners who didn't purchase from the developer, we put in a procedure where they can get a plug installed in their stall. This is considered an alteration to common property.

They have to use the strata's chosen electrician and pay the costs directly to the contractor, it's about $1500 per plug. They also have to sign liability forms (standard whenever anyone is altering common property) and sign the same contract to pay the Strata $400 per year.

The plugs all have their own individual breaker. We only turn the breaker on once they sign the agreement to pay. That way, if you can have a plug but if you're not using it, you don't have to pay, which is nice.

Our capacity is capped to a certain number of plugs. Once we hit the capacity, we can't accept anymore without paying to upgrade our infrastructure and that would require a 3/4 vote at an AGM. So for now, it's first come first serve.

In regards to fees, I think it's fair for the strata to charge more than the posted hydro rate because there are also likely maintenance and other costs that need to be factored in, besides just the power itself. However, the Act says all user feels must be reasonable, so if you feel if your Strata is treating it as a money grab, you can call them out on that.

One thing to note that might apply in your situation is that in order for the Strata to start charging user fees for common property, it must be outlined in a bylaw or a ratified rules, and bylaws/rules can only be amended/ratified at an AGM with a 3/4 approval.

So if you haven't yet had an AGM to vote on these new fees, with 3/4 voting yes, the Strata has no authority to make you pay for the power until such time it gets approved at an AGM

[Eff-1]

Originally Posted by geeknerd

I pay for installing. I paid $4000 for the charging unit + installation.
The charging unit acts as a third party meter for the strata.
So I pay $20 a month for the "meter" + the $0.20 rate based on usage.

I think the charging unit is designed so the chargers aren't metered separately and can run on one circuit but obviously the unit itself meters usage.

Here is an excerpt from one of the initial emails before installation.

The way I read that email, it sounds like your Strata has entered into an agreement to use equipment provided by these guys.

https://www.unicopower.com/electric-vehicle-charging

$20 is going to Unico per month for the monitoring.

$0.15/kwh is going to your Strata council, as that is the rate they have set for 100% cost recovery, according to them. You said it was $0.20. But this says $0.15.

My belief (I could be wrong) is the strata can't charge you the $0.15/kwh without a bylaw having been approved or a rule ratified at an AGM.

[PeanutButter]

Originally Posted by cafe22

long story short, I think your strata is rounding up the $/kwh charge so that they know they won't be short changed or have to deal with the accounting to recover the money owing from each owner.

In the next AGM, you can review the annual report to see where the extra 0.6/kwh is allocated. If the Strata Council is proactive, they should be setting aside the extra cash in their contingency fund to deal with any repairs caused by faulty EV chargers.

That's a good point, it may be like an administration charge?

[geeknerd]

Originally Posted by Eff-1

The way I read that email, it sounds like your Strata has entered into an agreement to use equipment provided by these guys.

https://www.unicopower.com/electric-vehicle-charging

$20 is going to Unico per month for the monitoring.

$0.15/kwh is going to your Strata council, as that is the rate they have set for 100% cost recovery, according to them. You said it was $0.20. But this says $0.15.

My belief (I could be wrong) is the strata can't charge you the $0.15/kwh without a bylaw having been approved or a rule ratified at an AGM.

nah thats the installer saying most stratas charge 0.15 but the final rate is decided by the council which ended up being set at $0.20

[geeknerd]

Originally Posted by Eff-1

I'm our strata president and I spent 6 months almost working on our EV policies. It's not easy stuff.

In our case, we were lucky, the building was constructed with EV charging from the beginning in some spaces. They are all connected to a single meter, so we can't measure individual usage. Therefore we charge a flat annual fee of $400 per year.

Choosing the fee is hard because some cars use more power than others, and different people drive different amounts. Ultimately, there will always be some people subsidizing others, unless you can install individual meters.

Residents who bought pre-sale were given the opportunity to add a level 2 charger to their parking stall for $2,000 extra. The developer also made them sign an agreement paying the strata $400 per year for power use.

For owners who didn't purchase from the developer, we put in a procedure where they can get a plug installed in their stall. This is considered an alteration to common property.

They have to use the strata's chosen electrician and pay the costs directly to the contractor, it's about $1500 per plug. They also have to sign liability forms (standard whenever anyone is altering common property) and sign the same contract to pay the Strata $400 per year.

The plugs all have their own individual breaker. We only turn the breaker on once they sign the agreement to pay. That way, if you can have a plug but if you're not using it, you don't have to pay, which is nice.

Our capacity is capped to a certain number of plugs. Once we hit the capacity, we can't accept anymore without paying to upgrade our infrastructure and that would require a 3/4 vote at an AGM. So for now, it's first come first serve.

In regards to fees, I think it's fair for the strata to charge more than the posted hydro rate because there are also likely maintenance and other costs that need to be factored in, besides just the power itself. However, the Act says all user feels must be reasonable, so if you feel if your Strata is treating it as a money grab, you can call them out on that.

One thing to note that might apply in your situation is that in order for the Strata to start charging user fees for common property, it must be outlined in a bylaw or a ratified rules, and bylaws/rules can only be amended/ratified at an AGM with a 3/4 approval.

So if you haven't yet had an AGM to vote on these new fees, with 3/4 voting yes, the Strata has no authority to make you pay for the power until such time it gets approved at an AGM

Thanks for some insider insight. I feel like using this specific system that's installed, it bypasses all the extra guessing game for fees. It literally transmits my exact usage info to the strata/system.

Originally Posted by PeanutButter

That's a good point, it may be like an administration charge?

Doesn't make sense to me because that would mean the more electricity you use, the more administration charge you pay...

I am still awaiting on reply. They never take longer than 1 day to respond on my general questions so I guess this is raising some 'investigation'.

[geeknerd]

Originally Posted by CRS

Which companies are you guys using to have the installation for your buildings?

BERT's Electric / Stream Automation Control Ltd.

[geeknerd]

Originally Posted by carsncars

My friend is on his building's strata and the EV chargers fall under the general service business rates and are more expensive than normal residential rates. Additionally, they've been subject to demand pricing.

Their building charges owners approx. $40/mo. for each EV charger (they are unable to bill by usage) and apparently it's costing the strata about $80-90/mo.

here's a more inclusive excerpt. basically the strata does not pay any transaction fee or demand chargers due to the system that we use.

Charging Costs:

All EV charging systems that offer remote, third-party monitoring charge fees (see below). Stream or Berts Electric do not set, manage or derive any benefit from these operating fees. However, with the EMS that is being deployed in your parkade, not only provides council with 100% recovery of all costs for EV charging but you avoid paying $40-$80/month in demand fees. Without this ability, the average EV owner would be paying over $100 per month to charge their EV’s.



Strata council decides what to set the recovery rate. Based on the average “all in” energy cost, most Strata’s set the recovery rate to $0.15/kWh to ensure full cost recovery for all EV charging. The final rate is expected to be set by the end of the month.



FYI: All service providers charge service &/or transaction fees whereby the financial impact varies depending on which one is used. As seen below, Unico Power (the system this property has) charges a flat fee per month but nothing in transaction fees. Service Fees are usually charged to the EVSE owner but Transaction fees are levied against the gross amount of revenue collected by the service provider on Strata’s behalf for all charging (at $0.15/kWh) and deducted from the gross funds remitted to Strata to cover the energy costs for all the EV charging.

[donk.]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

This would piss me off if I was Somone who wasn’t using the chargers.

90$/mo split across 50-500 people is nothing

Id much rather complain about 45,000$ yearly gardening costs

[Traum]

Originally Posted by winson604

No chargers in our building unfortunately (3 year old building). Installing would be difficult because no extra spaces and have to consider how much load we can handle if you want to install one for yourself. So far we only have 1 car that's EV and we approved them to just plug into the closest outlet so charging at 120V, we're charging them $30/month but reserve the right to increase if we realize down the road it costs us way more. We aren't overly concerned about it right now and are not rushing to try and find a way to measure what their usage is but in due time as EV's get more popular I'm sure we'll look into it more.

I wish most stratas without the L2 charging infrastructure would operate this way -- everything you've said above just seem logical and reasonable. As long as the residents are not abusing the policy, why should strata be opposed to it?

Unfortunately, I can't say all strata councils operate with a level head.

[68style]

I'll admit I'm not on the EV train at this point, but why is it so necessary to have charging at your home?

There's no gas pump built into any building... in the world? It's your responsibility to fuel your car up on your own time isn't it? Whether that fuel is gas or electricity or hydrogen or propane or bio-oil.

I find it uncomfortable that everything is having to change to cater toward everyone's electric cars being babysat for them every night. To me that's a really strange idea... in that it means the technology isn't where it needs to be. I know for sure a Tesla doesn't need to charge every night. I guess it's mostly supporting all the weiner electrics that can only go a hundred or so clicks a charge then? Why are buildings going to immense costs to ween crap technology through its growing pains?

[Razor Ramon HG]

Originally Posted by 68style

I'll admit I'm not on the EV train at this point, but why is it so necessary to have charging at your home?

There's no gas pump built into any building... in the world? It's your responsibility to fuel your car up on your own time isn't it? Whether that fuel is gas or electricity or hydrogen or propane or bio-oil.

Because you can't just charge an electric vehicle in the same two minutes it takes to fill up a car with gas?

[68style]

Yah of course, but not only is 2 minutes a great exaggeration (doesn’t include driving time nor does it factor in lineups or busy periods which occur at many stations) but doesn’t that just fit into the part where the tech isn’t where it needs to be and is being weened along in a way no other technology ever has been?

Also I think Tesla is close, someone else can comment but you can do a significant top off in 5-10 minutes at a proper charger no problem.

[Traum]

Adding to what Razor Ramon HG has said, my primitive understanding of EV charging is -- if you use L3 / super charging on a recurring basis, over time it'll accelerate the battery degradation problem. With ICE cars, your gas tank doesn't get smaller every time you fill up. But with EV, it sort of does (with L3 charging). So it makes sense to have L2 (and maybe at least L1) charging at home.

And then there is also cost. I am not familiar with EV charging rates -- it seems to me that for the time being, they are all over the place in Metro Vancouver. Free charging still exists at certain places, and L3 charging is more expensive than charging at home. In places outside of BC, off peak hour rates are cheaper than day time rates.

The significant top off in 5 - 10 min at a proper charger also seems less than ideal to me. Tesla's V3 superchargers claim to be capable of adding 75 miles / 120 km for a 5 min charge. While that sounds really good, it still pales compared to the amount of mileage you can get with a 5 min gas station fill up.

I'm sure having no home charging capabilities is doable for some people -- heck, if I have an EV, I have zero need to charge it at home since work has a number of free L2 chargers. But it is just much easier to have that home charging capabilities.

[Spoon]

Originally Posted by inv4zn

This thread is why I continue to pay $1.70/L, while crying inside.

There's no winning.

Buy an EV? Have fun charging regularly, or going long distances!
Buy a car? Have fun getting raped at the pump! Over $55K? Lube up for tax!
Buy a bike? Have fun looking for it on craigslist in a week!
Walk? Live closer to work? Sure, give me $250K for a downpayment on a shoebox!
Take the bus? ...yeah no thanks.

[geeknerd]

Originally Posted by 68style

I'll admit I'm not on the EV train at this point, but why is it so necessary to have charging at your home?

There's no gas pump built into any building... in the world? It's your responsibility to fuel your car up on your own time isn't it? Whether that fuel is gas or electricity or hydrogen or propane or bio-oil.

I find it uncomfortable that everything is having to change to cater toward everyone's electric cars being babysat for them every night. To me that's a really strange idea... in that it means the technology isn't where it needs to be. I know for sure a Tesla doesn't need to charge every night. I guess it's mostly supporting all the weiner electrics that can only go a hundred or so clicks a charge then? Why are buildings going to immense costs to ween crap technology through its growing pains?

It's a convenience that I'm willing to pay for. At the end of the day, its going to save me time.

Yes, I've had similar thoughts and its why I bought a PHEV. (Rav4 Prime).
70km EV range, 900km+ when combined with a full tank of gas.

I bought a phev because i thought the current infrastructure just wasn't enough for full EV's. Since I have a home L2 charger, I could've bought a full EV, but at the end of the day, I don't want to spend extra TIME required for planning and charging at specific locations on road trips.

Although, I have to admit while TESLA was a super close contender, I just didn't trust a meme company that is brand new to the 'auto' sector.

With all that in mind, I came to the conclusion that PHEV is the answer.

There's quite a few coming out soon and next year. KIA sorento phev, lexus phev, hyundai phev, etc etc. And I admit those new ones coming out look more luxurious and better than RAV4 but toyota is a leader in hybrids and ive been on the waitlist for almost a year so chose to pull the trigger.

Also, think about the future, EV tech is not being ween'ed along, its being pushed forward with an immense amount of force/backing because its what we envision for the future. At its core, its for a more resourceful and cleaner world. More and more people are going to be purchasing EVs, and while the infrastructure might eventually catch up like the current gas pump models, until then, there's going to come a time where there are going to be more EVS than chargers in parkades, workplaces, etc and it's just going to be a piece of mind having one at home.

[Eff-1]

Originally Posted by geeknerd

Thanks for some insider insight. I feel like using this specific system that's installed, it bypasses all the extra guessing game for fees. It literally transmits my exact usage info to the strata/system.

Is there anything in your Bylaws that talk about EV charging?

Also - was there any EV chargers previously installed? Or is all of this stuff 100% new? Was any of this brought up at your last AGM?

[Great68]

Originally Posted by 68style

I'll admit I'm not on the EV train at this point, but why is it so necessary to have charging at your home?

There's no gas pump built into any building... in the world? It's your responsibility to fuel your car up on your own time isn't it? Whether that fuel is gas or electricity or hydrogen or propane or bio-oil.

I find it uncomfortable that everything is having to change to cater toward everyone's electric cars being babysat for them every night. To me that's a really strange idea... in that it means the technology isn't where it needs to be. I know for sure a Tesla doesn't need to charge every night. I guess it's mostly supporting all the weiner electrics that can only go a hundred or so clicks a charge then? Why are buildings going to immense costs to ween crap technology through its growing pains?

I think the reality is that even in 20 years battery EV's are never going to reach parity in terms of the energy density of fossil fuels or recharging time vs refueling. So in order to reach functional parity with gas cars, things like home & overnight charging need to be a factor to get there. That's just how it is going to have to be to support that tech.

[freakshow]

Originally Posted by 68style

I'll admit I'm not on the EV train at this point, but why is it so necessary to have charging at your home?

There's no gas pump built into any building... in the world? It's your responsibility to fuel your car up on your own time isn't it? Whether that fuel is gas or electricity or hydrogen or propane or bio-oil.

I find it uncomfortable that everything is having to change to cater toward everyone's electric cars being babysat for them every night. To me that's a really strange idea... in that it means the technology isn't where it needs to be. I know for sure a Tesla doesn't need to charge every night. I guess it's mostly supporting all the weiner electrics that can only go a hundred or so clicks a charge then? Why are buildings going to immense costs to ween crap technology through its growing pains?

I think you're just used to something that is completely backwards to begin with. How does it make sense to have external stations every few blocks that you need to go refill your personal item. We don't do that with any other possession..

Waking up to a full 'tank' every morning and not having to stop at a gas station on the way home from work is fairly addictive. I think I'll always have a gas car for my fun/weekend cars, but my daily/family hauler will probably always be an EV going forward.

[geeknerd]

Originally Posted by Eff-1

Is there anything in your Bylaws that talk about EV charging?

Also - was there any EV chargers previously installed? Or is all of this stuff 100% new? Was any of this brought up at your last AGM?

Yeah the changes are in the rule book.

1. The Strata Corporation will charge a user fee (the “User Fee”) of $0.20 per kilo watt hour
(kwh) per month. The user fee is on top of what the monitoring company charges per
month for system access.

2. The Strata Corporation is entitled to change the amount of the User Fee from time to time
without notice to users in order to be consistent with any changes in the charges levied
against the Strata Corporation by BC Hydro for units of electricity consumption.


3. Owners wishing to install a charger must go through a contractor approved by the Strata
Corporation based on familiarity with building system and to ensure consistency of the
installation.
(To be ratified at next Annual General Meeting)

[geeknerd]

Wasn't able to get a response from my strata yet but I emailed the contractor today and got an instant response.

Good morning. My understanding with the rate is that council wanted to ensure all associated costs of EV charging were covered by EV users and not partially subsidized by non-EV residents/owners.

The $0.20/kWh rate was established to allow a buffer between actual costs & recovery. I believe the intention was to operate the charging network for a few months and then review the recovery rate to see if should be adjusted.

We will be reviewing the rate this September.

Makes sense but also doesn't because they advertise the system that's installed in our building as

the EMS that is being deployed in your parkade, not only provides council with 100% recovery of all costs for EV charging

I still think a 42% buffer zone is excessive but I guess we will see in Sept if the rate changes at all.