Job Discussion/Advice Thread
 

Hey guys,

Just wanted some input from you guys since I'm certain you guys have way more career/job experiences than I do.

So bit of a back story, I'm in the trades as an apprentice sparky. My old manager got terminated and we have a new manager that doesn't really mesh with the team, sometimes talking behind other people's back, initiating unpopular work policies, and guilt tripping coworkers to work overtime/weekends.

He's confided with me that this job, for him, is like running his own crew but with company money. He took the job to learn to become a business owner even though he had better offers from other places. He also told me that there are certain people in our crew that he doesn't like and wants to kick them out.

That was a month ago. Today, I found out that two of my coworkers quit and he fired an apprentice. I found out that if we finish our job early, we do not get a full 8 hours pay.

I'm tempted to look for another job even though my pay as an apprentice is decent and I get a take home company truck. I don't feel confident that there will be a job for me when I return to work from school.

What are your thoughts about this situation? It just doesn't sit right with me that management is allowed to do all these things and get away with it.

That sounds toxic AF and I'd start looking around for another position. Based on what you said it sounds like only a matter of time before you're on the chopping block.

manager's ambitions aside - hard to say without full details why an apprentice was fired, devil's advocate some folks don't gel with some foreman / sites and flourish when transferred to another site. of course i've seen some that bounce from site to site and i find at that point, it's not an everyone else issue but a them issue and they don't last so who knows to the exact reason :lol

that being said i'm pretty sure you should be able to go to another competing firm easily, but shop around and make sure it's a good one. if you're not liking the situation trades are hot, you get to choose in this market.

try to be in situations where you are able to expand your work experience to make yourself more marketable (distribution, controls, fire alarm guy KappaPride, etc). try not to settle on doing donkey work to get your hours in.

often times people leave jobs b/c of the environment & their manager

my 2 cents

Just wanted to note that this is pretty much normal practice for hourly trades workers.

Full disclosure, I'm a PM for one of, if not the largest electrical contractor in the province.

If there's 4 hours in a job, It's expected you to do it in 4 hours not 8 (unless the estimator seriously fucked something up).

However, it's the company's job to make sure you have another job to go to, and to give you enough work to get a full day's hours.

Conversely, with my guys we have a we have a pretty good give/take relationship. If I have 8 hours in a job and they finish it in 6, I'll let them charge that full 8 on their timecard. Then on the next job if it takes them 9, I expect they won't charge that extra hour. It has worked good so far even with the fact that my guys are IBEW...

I agree with this. The manager sounds toxic AF. You might be on good terms with him now, but with people like this, you never know when you'd be stepping on their shoes, or have done something to piss him off.

The company take home truck means nothing if you end up getting fired for no good reason. If you were a fully certified tradesperson, you could entertain the option of discussing this new manager's practice with the big boss or someone higher up. But at this point as an apprentice, your best bet is to just keep doing your work while you look for other options.

The next time he guilt trips you into working overtime, if ever, make sure you reply with

your lack of planning is not my crysis

I'm not surprised if I am on that list but luckily I don't think I'm next next since I'm multi lingual.

He's worked with most of the other jman and has received positive feedback. But tbh I'm just upset that he's gone since I had to train him and what not. Hope he finds a better gig though!

I'll definitely keep that in mind when I apply for different jobs. I do want to broaden my skillset with more commercial and industrial experience, fire alarm and what not. I'm seeing lots more postings for industrial and maintenance positions and that's what I want to target a couple years down the line when I get my ticket.

Thank you for the insight! Our job scheduling and dispatching is questionable at times. Our jobs are resi based and no estimators are involved so some times a job can be an easy one and take 3 hours or be incredibly difficult and use up the entire day with multiple techs involved. Each morning, we are given info on what we are installing and photos of the site. When we arrive, we figure out a game plan and do it.

The sales team does the site visit and that's about it.

I agree there should be an understanding between the office and field guys but to me that relationship seems to be deteriorating.

I'm just going to do everything by the book and minimize my interactions with him. Keep my head down and get things done. Honestly I'll look early next year and see what my options are while keeping an eye out on the job market. The big boss is aware of the practices done by the manager and some of the office staff know as well.

Loool I've told them before that he needs to do his job to coordinate with the other departments for weekend jobs and give advance notice (1week) because, frankly, asking guys at 4PM on Friday to work on Saturday is very disrespectful

I heard from close friends that with flat rate they're raking close to $150k - 160k atm. Switch jobs!

I can only speak for commercial but pretty sure that's not the norm. One of my friends has a med sized electrical company 50-60 employees, most his guys aren't making anywhere near that. I only know because we talk business a lot, I'm always picking his brain even though I'm involved in a different trade. I'm actually just about to go see him, I'll ask what his average guy makes a year I'm curious as well lol.

A site super or foreman A might be making that... Certainly not a regular J man. (although rates I work with are standardized since Union, with non-union firms who knows maybe some superstar Jman is making that)

Choose where you want to end up as far as residential/commercial/industrial. If you have nothing holding you down move to different companies/locations. You will be better off in the long run having various skills rather than doing the same thing within one company. Don’t burn bridges though and stick with a project until completion.

I would go for electrical and pair it with instrumentation. At my company the electricians work 4 on, 3 off, 4 on, 10 days off. 150k without overtime. You will get a full days pay whether you work 30mins or 10 hours. You are basically on call maintaining production.

Even though sdubfid owns the mortal enemy to my 68 Mustang... I now want to work at his company lol

Anything from the 60s is good if you ask me.

My point being that an electrician in an industrial facility with deep pockets is going to have more upside than being an electrician fixing Karen’s bathroom fan.

This isn't a videogame.

I think he was being facetious with the play on words.

I had my yearly review this week, to be honest it's the first one I've had since 2019, covid kind of screwed it up the last few years. The background is I've worked for this company since 2011, they've been a good company to work for and I'm happy here. I have a very good relationship with both my manager at our office here and the owner of the Company who works out of a different office, they have a lot of trust in me and I have a lot of input in the direction of this company especially in our branch. It's not a secret I'm pretty sure I've posted it before but I'm a senior estimator/pm for a construction sub contractor. It's a small/medium sized privately owned business with 4 offices in western Canada and has 200-300 employees depending on work on hand. I speak to the owner if not weekly, bi-weekly for sure to discuss business.

The only issue I have was they've always paid less than the competition, they are kind of known for paying less but being a pretty good work environment.
I did a lot of research knowing months ago that this review was coming I really wanted to bridge the gap from what I'm currently being paid and what I know my peers working for other companies are getting. I had conversations with people I used to work with at multiple other companies in the same industry, even my dad and my best friend are in the same industry in similar roles so I had a pretty good idea where I needed to be, I also have spoken to recruiters and in general searching out job ads online.

We had our review, went through everything and then we got to wages. When I told my manager what I wanted his words were, "well I really wasn't expecting that". We talked some more, I explained that I hadn't just randomly pulled this number out of the air it's what other companies are paying, I gave examples of our competition paying that and more I even gave him names of people he knew in the industry who I spoke to, I told him I've been asked to interview for positions offering more than what I'm asking for and didn't take the interview because I like it here, all fact. I explained that I really liked working here, I like my co-workers and I want to stay here but at some point I have to do what's best for my family and I cannot be leaving a bunch of money on the table year after year. My manager even brought up the, well you know this is a good place to work and the he could also go elsewhere and get more money but we take care of our own and we don't micromanage, you have a lot of freedom and that's why we pay less. At the end of it I didn't have a great feeling about it but he said he'd speak to the owner and get back to me but he wasn't sure how it would go mainly due to what others in the company were getting paid and potentially upsetting the apple cart.

Fast forward to yesterday, I received a call from my manager and he told me after deliberation with the owner and after him taking a few days to think about it he has agreed to what I want. I could tell from the tone in his voice that the owner wasn't happy. We talked a bit more and I told him I hope this won't strain the relationship I have with him or the owner of the company. He basically said, listen I appreciate you and I went to bat for you if I didn't do that I'm pretty certain this wouldn't have went your way. You've put him in a really tough spot and you might want to have a conversation with him about it.

I should be happy but I'm not, my intention was never to make the people I work for feel bad about me trying to get what I know I'm worth in the open market. I bring a lot of value to this company, there isn't a lot of people with my experience (30 years in the industry) who can properly evaluate and estimate projects that are the size I look at.

Here I am, up since 2am, can't sleep feeling sick to my stomach for going out there and fighting for what I'm worth. What's even more fucked up after finally getting it I've never wanted to leave here more than I do I right now. I'm hoping that feeling passes with time but right now I'm feeling pretty terrible.

You’ve been in a situation for a very long time where you feel like you should take a discount in pay for a work environment and apparently they think the same thing since they literally said as much.

I honestly think a manager saying “We pay less because our environment is good” makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why does less pay = good environment? How and why are they equating those 2 things as being related is beyond me… if it’s all love up in there and the company is prosperous what’s another $10-20k to you? They probably pay surcharges like that on upswings in material costs or licensing fees and don’t even bat an eye.

This company might be nice to work for, but they’re cheaping out at the exact wrong asset, I’d be super choked if I were you too… your care for your job and the company is genuine… their care for you was based on a discount? They’re not the ones who creates a good place to work, all the employees including you contribute to that atmosphere collectively. You have every right to feel betrayed, all you did is ask people you consider friends to be fair to you and they made you feel like shit about it… I’d say your next talk with the owner is going to be a very important one for that owner if they expect you to continue on in this role.

Your direct manager going on about how he went to bat for you reminds me of a salesman at a car dealership telling a customer he went to the big bad sales manager to try and get you what you wanted… it’s a farce, you’re all on the same team! Why wasn’t this a conference call together all 3 of you? Bizarre.

You shouldn’t feel guilty fighting for what is right for you and your family. Not sure if “guilty” is the right word, but the whole point was asking for a fair market price for what you are worth. So you shouldn’t feel bad about that.

I don’t really have anything else constructive or helpful to add, but I hope what you are feeling does subside and that the good work environment they are famous for doesn’t change.

1. CONGRATS for sticking up for yourself. Talking compensation is one of the most awkward things to do at work and you actually did it and succeeded and that's great. The vast majority of people don't do it and never end up getting what they want. I coach my team on this all the time yet I still fail miserably all the time when it comes to sticking up for myself and it's cost me a lot of money over the years.

2. You shouldn't feel guilty about any hard feelings that have occurred. For one thing, any hard feelings will fade away and, second, THEY agreed to it b/c they think YOU'RE WORTH IT. If anything, if they haven't given you a bump in a long time or the gap is really big the thought is, "Why haven't they done this before?" or "Now I'm just catching up to what I've missed".

Some tips for the future though to avoid this awkwardness:
- Make compensation discussions more of a habit with your manager. Not in the "I want more money" but "hey, this is what I'm seeing and hearing" or "this is how I'm feeling about it lately". I tell my directs to always take calls from recruiters and to tell me what's being offered so that I know what fair market value is - makes it easier for me to go to bat for them and for me to hire new people if I know what's fair. Your manager may have been surprised b/c he didn't know what market rates were or the change was so significant that he wasn't expecting that impact to his budget. Having regular conversations help set the table.
- Total compensation does include work environment and not just money and you should have a reasonably clear idea of what the value of that is to you. I'm in the midst of changing jobs and didn't choose the highest paying opportunities because the winning offer had great work-life balance and I really clicked with my future boss. I chose to give up a lot of prestige and money in exchange. What are the things that matter to you and what are they worth?
- Related: You have family that work in the industry so you probably have a good idea of whether the grass is greener on the other side or not but there are also things that are replaceable. Eg. You like your current co-workers but would you also like your new ones eventually? There are some things that you can't replace and some you can - value accordingly.

In any case, good on you for what you did and don't feel bad about it.

I think the environment is important and by good environment/company to work for they have done some things for me that they were not obligated to do that maybe some companies would and some would not. For example, kid needs braces and we don't have ortho coverage at work, they specifically add 100% ortho coverage to my plan. They let me take time off pretty much whenever I want, never a question. They pay me for sick days, pretty much unlimited even know they don't have a company policy or we don't have a written agreement to do so. They give me the option to work from home or the office, although more common than in the past still a lot of companies won't do this especially in the field I'm in. They pay for my gas even though I mostly work from home. They'll pay for my lunches if I want, all I have to do is submit a receipt although since I've been at home I haven't taken advantage of that. Schooling paid for if I want to upgrade anything, they'll even pay for me to take classes during work hours (within reason I couldn't go back to school full time).

I agree 100% with both of these. I don't know how many times I've made them 2-3x what I've asked for in a raise with value engineering, or getting a product changed all with the stroke of a pen. In my brain I'm thinking you're worried about this amount of money but in the grand scheme of this operation it's a nothing burger.


It's a combination of my this position paying more than it did 10 years ago and me moving up through the company starting in more of an entry/mid level position moving into a senior position over the years where I have all the pressure and responsibility procuring the work and training new estimators but my wage hasn't went up at the same rate as my extra duties have increased.

I've tried to do this, I've had conversations telling him that hey I had lunch with Tom that I trained who left two years ago, he is now working here and they are paying him X to start which is more than you're paying me. I've forwarded him messages from recruiters as a courtesy
letting him know our competition is looking for a new PM for this project or an Estimator, they'll usually have the pay range on them. I never did it in a way that was like hey I'm considering it but just to help keep him more in touch with what's happening in the market. It's hard because I'm really close with my manager, like we would grab a beer after work or he would help me work on my car we have conversations that are off the record, he knows what's going on in my life pretty well. Hell, our kids go the same school and are in the same grade.

1. My "managers" job, is to literally say, what you just described.
He is paid, by the owner, to pay his staff as least as possible. listen man, I bent over for you, just to get you this raise

2. Don't stress about "the owner didn't seem happy about this".
The owner, should be happy to paying you this "extra" amount. If you leave, there's a very good chance, his stress will increase, workflow will heavily decrease, your replacement would be starting from scratch. The list is very long.

3. Furthermore to #2. If possible, I would talk to the owner yourself, and see if your managers statement is true.
Because I found out my manager is full of shit, and always says things, to make sure he has the biggest dick in the room, like he is doing everyone a favor, and that he is saving the situation.
I no longer talk to my manager about pay. I talk to the owner.
The owner pays you. Not the manager. yes yes I know not all companies have the opportunity to talk to the owner
Furthermore, my manager is dead to me, he trained me for years, but the stars lined up several times over to reveal his true character. This goes for how some other staff feel about him as well.
I'm on great terms with the owner, also simply because he one of the best bosses I have ever had.

4. If the company is large.... The owner is making BANK.
For him to take out, 10-20k of his gross income, extra to pay you, is pocket change for him.
It will cost him MUCH more than 10-30k to get you replaced.
Staff turn over is very expensive.

Dont ever "I love my job" so I'm ok "with less pay" ever be your motto.

Some owners, prey on employees that love their job.
If you got 20 people at a company, that absolutely love their work, but are underpaid: That's 20 people x 10-20k each/yearly

The owner LOVES the extra 200-400k gross in his bank account.

I'm esl, leave me alone LOL

But on a side note, man that was a good game.....

Just anecdotal.. the trades were super busy the past year, but work seems to be drying up according to one of my friends who's a developer. He's been getting a lot of calls from past trades looking for work.

Not sure exactly what the market is right now, but maybe see what's out there before you do anything.

Should that conversation with the owner eventually come, is this something you can bring up in the conversation with him in a nice and non-offending way?

At the end of the day, I'm sure the owner has considered the exact same thing as well, although at a higher level and potentially without actual examples and exact figures. He gave you the offer you are asking for because he deemed having you stay with the company is worth more than losing you to the competition, and I am going to say he made a smart business decision. I can't remember how many times I've seen managers at my previous and current work places lose a staff over wage issues or other work-related demands that I really think are generally quite reasonable. And then when the person leaves, everyone else gets royally screwed because of the amount of knowledge that the person has. FailFish

Why do you feel that way? As I was saying above, the company owner agreed to your wage request because he deemed losing you to the competition will cost him more than paying you the extra amounts that you've asked for. If he is as emotionally smart as he is business savvy, he will just look at it purely as a business decision of costs vs benefits. And that's exactly how you should look at it as well.

There are no hard feelings -- it's all just business. You did good going to bat for yourself.

(And on that note, I would go and do a little something for your manager as well as an appreciative gesture to thank him for having the wage hike discussion with the owner.)

Seems kinda gaslighty.
I can tell you one thing, if I've gotten grief from owners for giving raises, the last thing I'm gonna do is tell my staff the owner didn't want to give it to them, or they put me in a tough spot or whatever. Why would I want to make someone feel like they aren't worth it? That's the worst way to get the best out of somebody.
If I give someone a raise it's "thanks for your hard work, you earned it, and here are the things I want you to continue to improve or focus on for continued growth."
I'm thankful that currently when I dish them out it's met with an understanding from the owner I'm doing what's best for the business in mind, because if your staff aren't treated well you'll be a revolving door.