[Sandman]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

Stephen Hawking: 'There is no heaven; it's a fairy story'
In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, the cosmologist shares his thoughts on death, M-theory, human purpose and our chance existence

Stephen Hawking dismisses belief in God in an exclusive interview with the Guardian. Photograph: Solar & Heliospheric Observatory/Discovery Channel
A belief that heaven or an afterlife awaits us is a "fairy story" for people afraid of death, Stephen Hawking has said.

In a dismissal that underlines his firm rejection of religious comforts, Britain's most eminent scientist said there was nothing beyond the moment when the brain flickers for the final time.

Hawking, who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease at the age of 21, shares his thoughts on death, human purpose and our chance existence in an exclusive interview with the Guardian today.

The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its symptoms arising, an outlook that turned the young scientist to Wagner, but ultimately led him to enjoy life more, he has said, despite the cloud hanging over his future.

"I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first," he said.

"I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark," he added.

Hawking's latest comments go beyond those laid out in his 2010 book, The Grand Design, in which he asserted that there is no need for a creator to explain the existence of the universe. The book provoked a backlash from some religious leaders, including the chief rabbi, Lord Sacks, who accused Hawking of committing an "elementary fallacy" of logic.

The 69-year-old physicist fell seriously ill after a lecture tour in the US in 2009 and was taken to Addenbrookes hospital in an episode that sparked grave concerns for his health. He has since returned to his Cambridge department as director of research.

The physicist's remarks draw a stark line between the use of God as a metaphor and the belief in an omniscient creator whose hands guide the workings of the cosmos.

In his bestselling 1988 book, A Brief History of Time, Hawking drew on the device so beloved of Einstein, when he described what it would mean for scientists to develop a "theory of everything" – a set of equations that described every particle and force in the entire universe. "It would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God," he wrote.

The book sold a reported 9 million copies and propelled the physicist to instant stardom. His fame has led to guest roles in The Simpsons, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Red Dwarf. One of his greatest achievements in physics is a theory that describes how black holes emit radiation.

In the interview, Hawking rejected the notion of life beyond death and emphasised the need to fulfil our potential on Earth by making good use of our lives. In answer to a question on how we should live, he said, simply: "We should seek the greatest value of our action."

In answering another, he wrote of the beauty of science, such as the exquisite double helix of DNA in biology, or the fundamental equations of physics.

Hawking responded to questions posed by the Guardian and a reader in advance of a lecture tomorrow at the Google Zeitgeist meeting in London, in which he will address the question: "Why are we here?"

In the talk, he will argue that tiny quantum fluctuations in the very early universe became the seeds from which galaxies, stars, and ultimately human life emerged. "Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in," he said.

Hawking suggests that with modern space-based instruments, such as the European Space Agency's Planck mission, it may be possible to spot ancient fingerprints in the light left over from the earliest moments of the universe and work out how our own place in space came to be.

His talk will focus on M-theory, a broad mathematical framework that encompasses string theory, which is regarded by many physicists as the best hope yet of developing a theory of everything.

M-theory demands a universe with 11 dimensions, including a dimension of time and the three familiar spatial dimensions. The rest are curled up too small for us to see.

Evidence in support of M-theory might also come from the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at Cern, the European particle physics laboratory near Geneva.

One possibility predicted by M-theory is supersymmetry, an idea that says fundamental particles have heavy – and as yet undiscovered – twins, with curious names such as selectrons and squarks.

Confirmation of supersymmetry would be a shot in the arm for M-theory and help physicists explain how each force at work in the universe arose from one super-force at the dawn of time.

Another potential discovery at the LHC, that of the elusive Higgs boson, which is thought to give mass to elementary particles, might be less welcome to Hawking, who has a long-standing bet that the long-sought entity will never be found at the laboratory.

Hawking will join other speakers at the London event, including the chancellor, George Osborne, and the Nobel prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz.

Science, truth and beauty: Hawking's answers

What is the value in knowing "Why are we here?"

The universe is governed by science. But science tells us that we can't solve the equations, directly in the abstract. We need to use the effective theory of Darwinian natural selection of those societies most likely to survive. We assign them higher value.

You've said there is no reason to invoke God to light the blue touchpaper. Is our existence all down to luck?

Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in.

So here we are. What should we do?

We should seek the greatest value of our action.

You had a health scare and spent time in hospital in 2009. What, if anything, do you fear about death?

I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I'm not afraid of death, but I'm in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.

What are the things you find most beautiful in science?

Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics."

[cliffhanger33]

This is a perfect Theory of Knowledge topic .

[Slifer]

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww250/jh2up/rw0xfa.gif

[SkinnyPupp]

My first thought was "well fucking DUH" but he puts it so eloquently and succinctly. When the smartest man in the world speaks, more people need to listen.
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[cliffhanger33]

Science is beautiful when it makes simple explanations of phenomena or connections between different observations. Examples include the double helix in biology, and the fundamental equations of physics.
Well okay. Talking about sciences etc. and making a claim of religion is such a sensitive and debatable topic that will never stop being argued.
But in my opinion, Science does not address the faith that humans hold that there are even governing principles in our world and that it is not just our mere stubbornness to find patterns that we think is right. Faith does play a huge role in this area of knowledge. Just like in math. Axioms for example are statements that are known to be true but can never be proved eg. right angles are always 90 degrees or parallel lines will run infinitely without ever touching. How do we know this? So we have faith that this is right. Then this falls into religion too, where people have faith that there is a God and that there is a heaven.

[dinamix]

There's are reason why he's gimped
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[blagh]

Axioms for example are statements that are known to be true but can never be proved eg. right angles are always 90 degrees or parallel lines will run infinitely without ever touching. How do we know this? So we have faith that this is right. Then this falls into religion too, where people have faith that there is a God and that there is a heaven.

lol u dumb

[dinamix]

Well okay. Talking about sciences etc. and making a claim of religion is such a sensitive and debatable topic that will never stop being argued.
But in my opinion, Science does not address the faith that humans hold that there are even governing principles in our world and that it is not just our mere stubbornness to find patterns that we think is right. Faith does play a huge role in this area of knowledge. Just like in math. Axioms for example are statements that are known to be true but can never be proved eg. right angles are always 90 degrees or parallel lines will run infinitely without ever touching. How do we know this? So we have faith that this is right. Then this falls into religion too, where people have faith that there is a God and that there is a heaven.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ld5z3cylfo1qzu6nxo1_500.jpg
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQP1-IivpcWujld_OANluHTLnxgt3ZV8B_v1E5-eTwrHcJRVBaZqw[/IMg]
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[Culverin]

Well okay. Talking about sciences etc. and making a claim of religion is such a sensitive and debatable topic that will never stop being argued.
But in my opinion, Science does not address the faith that humans hold that there are even governing principles in our world and that it is not just our mere stubbornness to find patterns that we think is right. Faith does play a huge role in this area of knowledge. Just like in math. Axioms for example are statements that are known to be true but can never be proved eg. right angles are always 90 degrees or parallel lines will run infinitely without ever touching. How do we know this? So we have faith that this is right. Then this falls into religion too, where people have faith that there is a God and that there is a heaven.

I don't have a college degree and I even I know that 90 degrees and parallel lines statement you made is ridiculous.

I'm a Christian, please don't make people with faith look dumb.

:failed:

[cliffhanger33]

I don't have a college degree and I even I know that 90 degrees and parallel lines statement you made is ridiculous.

I'm a Christian, please don't make people with faith look dumb.

:failed:

Noo, that's the point :) everyone knows right angle is 90 degrees, but do you know why that's true? Coz it just is. Theres no known proof for it so we all rely on faith, regardless of how much people say that faith is not legitimate way of knowing. Hell, im supporting faith here and im Christian too

[SkinnyPupp]

If that's the best argument you can make, religion won't last more than just a few generations from now. Once the old ignorant "faithful" people die off, we can finally progress as a species. And maybe things will be more peaceful too

[EmperorIS]

Religion was just there to teach us morals and how to behave
the way i see it
humans weren't smart enough or had the technology to understand much back then
like a little kid learning right or wrong .. you wouldn't lay some scientific complicated facts on him .. the kid won't understand .. we have story books that ends with a moral teaching to teach kids right or wrong ... and how the world works

now that the human race is getting older and more mature ... we need to ditch these religious beliefs and start thinking on our own

[cliffhanger33]

^ Yes. Sorry. I guess I was too frank. I was just trying to point out that "faith" might in some way help us gain knowledge too. It's not solely reason and observations that science is focused on.

[observer]

I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with Confucius teaching. Morality need not come from religion per se.

[SkinnyPupp]

^ Yes. Sorry. I guess I was too frank. I was just trying to point out that "faith" might in some way help us gain knowledge too. It's not solely reason and observations that science is focused on.
Having faith blindly in some "fact" does nothing to further knowledge. If we simply had "faith" that all animals were just made the way they are, and that is that, we never would have discovered evolution for instance. And how far behind would we be now if we didn't accept that new fact?

All faith does is control the way people think. Very few people actually benefit from it.

[LiquidTurbo]

If that's the best argument you can make, religion won't last more than just a few generations from now. Once the old ignorant "faithful" people die off, we can finally progress as a species. And maybe things will be more peaceful too

You forgot about the growth of Islam.

[LiquidTurbo]

Is Stephen Hawking going to tell us that there is no Santa Claus next? :D

[Bouncing Bettys]

No Silicon Heaven? Where would all the calculators go?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4wqAJTu19o

[TheNewGirl]

If that's the best argument you can make, religion won't last more than just a few generations from now. Once the old ignorant "faithful" people die off, we can finally progress as a species. And maybe things will be more peaceful too

It's kinda funny, my friends and I were talking about how wonderful it would be if the Rapture did happen so we could get rid of all the zealots (ideally of all faiths) and stop fighting wars that are at least justified as being about god and have to face the reality that they're not. If we could stop having people blow up abortion clinics. Stop having people protest gay rights.

[boogabooga]

Religion causes more human war and misery than any other manmade cause.

[Jsunu]

Religion causes more human war and misery than any other manmade cause.

How about resources? Or race related genocide? or Class struggles?

Religion does play a large part in human suffering, but they are not the sole cause of it. It's funny when people say that if we got rid of religion wars will end. I a pretty sure people will find ideological differences, removed from religion, to start wars with.

[SkinnyPupp]

Resources will come up as problems, yes

Race related genocide? Thank religion.

Class struggles? Religion.

[97ITR]

It's kinda funny, my friends and I were talking about how wonderful it would be if the Rapture did happen so we could get rid of all the zealots (ideally of all faiths) and stop fighting wars that are at least justified as being about god and have to face the reality that they're not. If we could stop having people blow up abortion clinics. Stop having people protest gay rights.

You do realize that it's not just religious folks that have these extreme opinions, right? Ridding this world of religion would not stop the fact that a subset of people have a deep emotional attachment to a cause that drives them to irrational and sometimes destructive behavior.

[SkinnyPupp]

You do realize that it's not just religious folks that have these extreme opinions, right? Ridding this world of religion would not stop the fact that a subset of people have a deep emotional attachment to a cause that drives them to irrational and sometimes destructive behavior.
Yes but once we get rid of the religious fanatics, PETA, Greenpeace, and vegans shouldn't be too hard to get rid of :D

[97ITR]

Resources will come up as problems, yes

Race related genocide? Thank religion.

Class struggles? Religion.

Merely making blanket statements with no support adds nothing to the discussion.

Can you explain how the Rwandan Genocide resulted from religious differences?

Can you explain how the apartheid resulted from religious differences?

[gdoh]

im not really religious but why mess religion when it helps so many coop with the hardships in life.

[woob]

I'm not sure if anyone here is familiar with Confucius teaching. Morality need not come from religion per se.

Fuck yes.

"Developing love and compassion and reducing anger and spite is a universal activity which requires no faith in any religion whatsoever."

- Dalai Lama

[Bouncing Bettys]

http://funpresident.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/science-bus.jpg

[freakshow]

Religion and faith certainly have their flaws, and most people don't know why they believe what they believe, but most atheists don't either.

It's Hawkings, he MUST be right. It's Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, well, they MUST be right after all the books they've written..
Well, why don't we look at Collins, Keller or Baucham? Oh.. right, no one knows those names because no one takes a serious look at what they believe, and possibly more importantly, at those who oppose what they believe.

Religion has caused many of the bad things in the world, but if you think atheism is innocent, you're unbelievably ignorant.

Thankfully, I'm not an atheist, because I would either have to be a nihilist or a hypocrite.

If we had meme comics for atheists, they would go something like this:
LOL @ FAITH
BELIEVES IN KARMA

HERE BY CHANCE
PROMOTES ALTRUISM

DON'T PUSH YOUR BELIEFS ON ME!
YOU SHOULD BELIEVE WHAT I BELIEVE!

CAN'T HAVE FREE WILL + DETERMINISM
NO PROBLEM WITH WAVE-PARTICLE DUALITY

NO OBJECTIVE BASIS FOR MORALS
PUSHES THEM ON OTHERS ANYWAYS

LOVES NATURAL SELECTION
OPPOSED TO KILLING

YOU MUST PROVE BIBLE SCIENTIFICALLY
DOESN'T KNOW SCIENTIFIC METHOD

NO BASIS FOR EXISTENCE
BELIEVES IN HUMAN RIGHTS


PS. I've asked to have my fail button back, but no cigar.. sorry.

[TheNewGirl]

im not really religious but why mess religion when it helps so many coop with the hardships in life.

Because orginized religion makes so much hardship for so many people.

I have NO beef with people who are spiritual or who have faith. I'm all down with self awareness and introspection and morality and personal growth (though these are not only achieved through faith for sure).

I have a HUGE issue though with hate spewing sheeple who use God as an excuse to be close minded bigots.

[SkinnyPupp]

Well, why don't we look at Collins, Keller or Baucham? Oh.. right, no one knows those names because no one takes a serious look at what they believe, and possibly more importantly, at those who oppose what they believe.

Umm I think it has more to do with that these people believe in fairy tales, and they think such utterly stupid things like denying the existence of dinosaurs, etc.

It is easy for an atheist to just completely dismiss any arguments coming their way, because it is all based on total nonsensical stories.

[TheNewGirl]

You do realize that it's not just religious folks that have these extreme opinions, right? Ridding this world of religion would not stop the fact that a subset of people have a deep emotional attachment to a cause that drives them to irrational and sometimes destructive behavior.

Oh I agree.

I know that also religion is often the excuse and not the reason as well.

But I think it would be a nice start.

[Ferra]

I am sure most of us don't believe in heaven or an almighty God...but I find these ultra atheism ideas very depressing...

e.g. The idea that "conscious" does not exist, and nothing lies beyond our body...
We are just bunch of electrical pulses that bind together to give an illusion of oneself (no free will, no soul, no minds)
and eternal emptiness and nothingness follow after death...


I am not sure if such belief is good for the world too...the idea that we are nothing more than electrical pulse seem very nihilistic...

[Ferra]

btw...that right angle example is retarded....
Right angle is a descriptive terms "we invented" to describe an observation....it is like calling a color red or purple. It is not ambiguous and it can be measured (unlike the ideas of parallel line and infinity)

[Skyline350gt]

I used to go to church back in the day, and was in a church that really had a strong community. Needless to say I had a relationship with God and thought that I would believe and be a follower for the rest of my life.

Coming from someone that has life long experience, one thing people have to realize is just because you go to church doesn't mean you are a Christian. You actually have to harness a relationship.

But anyway as time went by everything was okay I felt like something was a little off.
It was hard enough living a life trying not to sin.

Fast forward 4-5 years or so, I now believe it's IMPORTANT to live the life you want to live. And not be stuck in a huge bubble, life is short and every moment is beautiful.
Reason being not to long ago my mother passed away and..damn do I regret not talking and sharing more moments with her..

I think Stephen Hawking is on the right track, but I think when you die you choose where you want to go. I read a study where they measure brain activity, the last few moments of your life you will emit large amounts of DMT, which apparently can feel like time last longer. In that time frame you have in your final moments you will let go of all your worries and choose a place, for most people they will picture some type of heaven possibly in the sky. If you are a murderer with that type of conscience when you die wouldn't you picture hell? I think so. Since you know you fucked up big your conscience will lead you there.

[!LittleDragon]

To the Christians, everyone else is a heathen
To the Muslims, everyone else is an infidel
To an Atheist, everyone else is weak minded

Religion doesn't start wars, people do. I'm surprised that a fanatical atheist hasn't tried to purge the world of religion. In the end, just be who you want to be, believe what you want to believe and accept the fact that others may not share the same view.

[flagella]

Wow... some extreme stereotype here. Idiots bashing religions without any basis are as dumb as some of the religious fanatics.

A lot of people have already made good points here. An idiot who believes in a religion blindly will continue to be an idiot. He'll interpret whatever he reads into his liking and uses them as excuses.

[drunkrussian]

An idiot who believes in a religion blindly will continue to be an idiot. He'll interpret whatever he reads into his liking and uses them as excuses.

I agree. To add though, someone who doesn't believe in religion is just as blind as an idiot who does. The fact is that nobody knows anything and are just arguing for their side, with...no real argument. One side has some books...the other demands proof. Therefore to even get into the religious argument is moronic in and of itself, no matter which side you're on.

[neggo]

Anybody can have beliefs of a higher power without having to belong to a religion or strongly associate with one. Religion and faith can essentially be viewed as different entities.

Religion is created, institutionalized and bureaucratized by people. Faith, however, is unconstricted and unconstrained by any of those elements.

As long as people, theists and atheists alike, tell you to rigidly believe in a particular set of rules or doctrines without any room for personal interpretations and beliefs, the tensions between religions and atheists will always exist.

Simply put? Believe in what you want to believe. Just don't be a fucking jackass about it.

[optiblue]

I wonder how many services will argue against Hawkings with more quotes from the bible?
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[Ulic Qel-Droma]

religion is just a misinterpretation by uneducated human beings of what the universe really is.

[RacePace]

http://samoan-ninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/AndHereWeGo.gif

[The7even]

Religion was just there to teach us morals and how to behave
the way i see it
humans weren't smart enough or had the technology to understand much back then
like a little kid learning right or wrong .. you wouldn't lay some scientific complicated facts on him .. the kid won't understand .. we have story books that ends with a moral teaching to teach kids right or wrong ... and how the world works

now that the human race is getting older and more mature ... we need to ditch these religious beliefs and start thinking on our own

I'm very bothered by this comment...

Because what you said is fucking false.. Humans, 10,000 years ago we're smart as FUCK! They we're incredibly smart. Looking at today, you could say that we're all dumb because most of us know who snooki is but not who stephen hawking is..

Let me say this.. 10,000 years ago people fucking built structures that we can't build today with all our technology.. it's not possible for us. I don't know how they did it, nor do I believe aliens built it, but the humans back then did. they were smart and you fucking taking away their credibility is what angers me.

I'm a person of faith and people need to understand this.. science is the art of explaining HOW everything in our life works, and it tries to explain it all to us, and rightfully so. I also believe that science is restricted to this universe and the laws that are in it. My belief in God is NOT FACT, I believe it to be 100% true, but I cannot prove it scientifically . It literally takes FAITH to believe in a creator.

Stephen Hawking is limited, just as we all are, to the limits implemented on us by this universe... I really admire him, he's on of my favorite people in the world and i'm thankful to be alive during his time... but his theory doesn't bother me in the least.. nor do I take that as fact.. and this is not me choosing to believe one thing and then ignore another when it doesn't suit me. I just realize God is faith AND science based. Science and faith together for me paint the whole picture and it makes sense to me. Science without faith, paints the TRUE and real picture of the universe and existence that we know here and now. But it CANNOT and never will explain it fully. It's not possible because It's a human practice. we have limits..

now if you ever come across faith that completely ignore and / or contradicts irrefutable science, then you ought to question your faith.

The thing is, 97% of westerners know of Christianity and when they use science vs faith they use Christianity as a representation for God. That's one wrong thing that science mostly does. But it's ok with me.

[bloodmack]

How about resources? Or race related genocide? or Class struggles?

Religion does play a large part in human suffering, but they are not the sole cause of it. It's funny when people say that if we got rid of religion wars will end. I a pretty sure people will find ideological differences, removed from religion, to start wars with.

The only other reason we fight is for power, but power is so heavily associated with religion that the line is very blurred. Our want for hope and a better means is what powers religious leaders and religion will NEVER disappear because we all believe in something. I have had a taste of a few different religious beliefs and in the end they're all the same.

I don't believe in a god, because no one being should have that much power.

[twitchyzero]

I will ask what the Jeovah's Witness thinks about this interview the next time they are knocking on my doors.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

The only other reason we fight is for power.

no, we fight because we are humans. if there was no power to fight over, we'd still fight. that is what we are. we are instruments of war.

if we took away power, we'd create an artificial way of competition and fight that way. well we already have, it's called the economy.

either way, we're hardwired to compete/fight amongst ourselves.

To the Christians, everyone else is a heathen
To the Muslims, everyone else is an infidel
To an Atheist, everyone else is weak minded

Religion doesn't start wars, people do. I'm surprised that a fanatical atheist hasn't tried to purge the world of religion. In the end, just be who you want to be, believe what you want to believe and accept the fact that others may not share the same view.

that's because atheism is a religion in itself. they themselves are the gods of this planet. they direct their own life.

[Alatar]

I will ask what the Jeovah's Witness thinks about this interview the next time they are knocking on my doors.

Make sure you answer the door in your birthday suit. That should get them in a talking mood.

[JD¹³]

I'm very bothered by this comment...

Because what you said is fucking false.. Humans, 10,000 years ago we're smart as FUCK! They we're incredibly smart.
The irony of this post made me laugh out loud :fullofwin:

I agree with Emperor. In the past, before established modern science, religion filled the void for inexplicable occurrences. Natural phenomenon such as the Aurora Borealis and volcanic activity were beyond the scope of man's understanding and so our imagination took over: they were signs from the gods. Even just a few hundred years ago our modern aircraft would be seen as chariots of the gods, supernatural phenomenon. Diseases and illnesses were punishments for our sins, we barely understood how our own bodies worked and that there were living organisms much smaller than can be seen by the human eye.

As modern science has explained away more and more of what has escaped mans understanding the need for the religious safety net has evaporated. So too has the church's influence. I say church meaning the various establishments of every religion. We're in the middle of a very important transition period right now. We're moving away from imagination and ignorance towards a true understanding of what we are as a species and our place in the universe, hence the rapidly declining belief in gods. The church is fighting this obviously as they are losing power, influence, and MONEY as a result.

I think it's fine if people still believe in a high power, if that makes you happy that's fantastic. For me I can only hope one day man loses that crutch entirely. There will always be conflicts over all kinds of issues but I think we as a whole will change our outlook on petty differences when we all have a greater understanding of our place on Earth as one species: unique in our own ways but all on the same team.

[murd0c]

Make sure you answer the door in your birthday suit. That should get them in a talking mood.

with a raging hard on and ask if they want to play :fullofwin:


But seriously I don't believe in god and heaven but I do feel religion does great things by helping people out when they are down and really trying to motivate people in helping others. But you don't see much of that anymore it's starting to get dirty and it will be the end of life as we know it.

[Culverin]

Simply put? Believe in what you want to believe. Just don't be a fucking jackass about it.
Just want to point out that's a western philosophy. It doesn't quite happen like that in other cultures. And some belief systems, secular and religious believe that we are all connected, what happens in 1 part of society affects the rest, even if you're not outwardly pushing your values onto others.


I don't believe in a god, because no one being should have that much power.

lols, just because you think a situation is unjust does not invalidate the existence of anything. Example: Just because I think the Conservative's Internet Surveillance is wrong doesn't mean it isn't true. Thinking otherwise is to stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la, it isn't true".

[iEatClams]

Because orginized religion makes so much hardship for so many people.

If anyone has taken any biological Anthropolgy, Natural Selection and culture plays a role in Religion.

Hundreds of years ago, many people wanted to fit in, and being an outkast did not help you Financially or socially. If everyone around you and the people you associated with wore a Turbin, Cross etc, you would want to be inclined to be like these people in order to fit in. Not fitting in would mean you don't find a mate, or starve to deaf because people wouldn't have business dealings with you.

Religion was an easy way of keeping order and allowed the young to be taught basic morals. So back then, religion actually helped people keep order and didnt create soo many hardship like it does today.



I have NO beef with people who are spiritual or who have faith. I'm all down with self awareness and introspection and morality and personal growth (though these are not only achieved through faith for sure).

I have a HUGE issue though with hate spewing sheeple who use God as an excuse to be close minded bigots.

+ 1.

I was one of these people, mostly because I didn't know any better. My parents raised me to believe what they believed in. I just followed the people like my friends around me like a sheep in a herd.

It wasn't until I educated myself in University and learned more about the world and the ability to make unbiased, informed opinions that allowed me to better shape my morals and views.

[Mancini]

I used to believe that religion was the answer and then I met God.

[TekDragon]

Noo, that's the point :) everyone knows right angle is 90 degrees, but do you know why that's true? Coz it just is. Theres no known proof for it so we all rely on faith, regardless of how much people say that faith is not legitimate way of knowing. Hell, im supporting faith here and im Christian too

A right angle is 90 degrees. We can MEASURE it. Show me how we can measure god, measure heaven, measure hell and everything else that requires "faith" and I'll listen to your argument.

[SkinnyPupp]

and being an outkast did not help you Financially or socially.

http://thehullabaloo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/outkast.jpg

[SkinnyPupp]

. So back then, religion actually helped people keep order and didnt create soo many hardship like it does today.

You couldn't possibly be more wrong btw.

[$_$]

religion is just a misinterpretation by uneducated human beings of what the universe really is.



I thought my post in the other thread might be interesting to some since you guys are talking about this.

You guys need to have a more open mind about UFOlogy and how it relates to every major religion in the world, and how this relates with current events and certain speculation. Nothing is definitive right now, but information are coming out about governments recorded speculation themselves.There's a certain stigma around UFOlogy or the belief that extraterrestrials having direct contact with our ancestors in modern society you are crazy. You have to understand that the information that you find will not challenge your beliefs. It will only provide you insight on how history has been perceived through the hundreds of years that it has been passed down, as well as how our ancestors view technology. You ever play a game in elementary where your teacher will tell you one thing, and you are trying to tell your classmate the same thing, and when it finally gets to the last person at the other side of the room the message is completely different? Think about it like that. But one thing is for sure though. Every religion includes a being coming down from the sky and descends upon them. This being don't come from the sea, or come from the ground, it's always coming down. This being becomes a deity through its magnificent powers. These accounts are always recorded as truth during its era, and literal and non-fictional.

For those Christians, think about this. When God comes down, in his "physical presence", is he not always appearing in a cloud of smoke, and disappearing in a cloud of smoke? He's often portrayed as a bright light, then leaving as cloud of smoke.

Exodus16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.

Exodus 16:10 24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

Numbers 9:16 So it was alway: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night.

Ezekiel: In the Book of Ezekiel, part of the Hebrew bible, a prophet has a vision of a flying vessel accompanied by fire, smoke and a loud noise. Some ancient alien theorists have argued that the vehicle's design closely mirrors that of a modern spaceship.

http://www.history.com/images/media/slideshow/ancient-aliens-image-gallery/ezekiel.jpg



The egyptians carved these out of gold:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_ciencia/avionescol02_09.jpg


SALAMANCA, SPAIN


This is an illustration from a book "Ume No Chiri (Dust of Apricot)" published in 1803. A foreign ship and crew witnessed at Haratonohama (Haratono Seashore) in Hitachi no Kuni (Ibaragi Prefecture), Japan this strange object. According to the explanation in the drawing, the outershell was made of iron and glass, and strange letters shown in this drawing were seen inside the ship.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7926/ufo1803.jpg



K'inich Janaab' Pakal (23 March 603 – 28 August 683)[1] was ruler of the Maya polity of Palenque in the Late Classic period of pre-Columbian Mesoamerican chronology. During a long reign of some 68 years Pakal was responsible for the construction or extension of some of Palenque's most notable surviving inscriptions and monumental architecture.



http://www.history.com/images/media/slideshow/ancient-aliens-image-gallery/palenque-sarcophagus-lid.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Pacal_the_Great_tomb_lid.svg (Click into it and tell me what you see?)

The Baptism of Christ
Aert De Gelder, 1710


http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5694/462pxbaptismofchristbya.jpg



The Madonna with saint Giovannio
Domenico Ghilandaio

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/The_Madonna_with_Saint_Giovannino.jpg


Miracle of the Snow: Foundation of Santa Maria Maggiore
Masolino da Panicale, 1430

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4951/wgartartmmasolinomaggio.jpg


Sky People: This ancient stone figure, found at the Mayan ruins in Tikal, Guatemala, resembles a modern-day astronaut in a space helmet.

http://www.history.com/images/media/slideshow/ancient-aliens-image-gallery/sky-people.jpg


If you haven't already, check out History Channels Ancient Aliens and it might answer some of your religious questions, as it did mine.

http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens

[SkinnyPupp]

Way to ruin a thread

[cliffhanger33]

When I regard to faith as a basis for knowledge, I'm not saying religion. To be clear, faith is the complete trust or conclusive belief in someone or something rather than proof while the word ‘reason’ would require justification or explanation of a belief or action as evidence.
Faith is indescribable and hard to visualize and understand. In fact, it is not easy for someone to have faith because there’s actually no proof or reason in a god’s existence. Some would agree that faith applies to our ways of knowing while some would disagree. Albert Einstein (1879-1955) was once asked in 1915 what he would do if the experiment he did on his general theory of relativity did not agree with his theory. He calmly replied, “So much the worse for the experiment. The theory is right!” Although it was an unjustifiable theory at that time, he had faith and instinctively believed that his theory was correct, paving the path to the most innovative scientific discovery of the 20th century.
Science is all about acquiring knowledge based on repeated experiments and observations for a consistent pattern to find the answers, and faith does not fall under any of this. On the contrary, what makes us think that the consistent pattern that we are working so hard to find is not based on faith that the universe even has governing principles in the first place? In mathematics, if a series of steps used to solve a problem works, we assume that this procedure would be able to solve similar problems. However, it’s a matter of time before a new theorem will be discovered and that the old theorem will become obsolete, going through a paradigm shift. Now, how can reasoning be a legitimate basis for knowledge when it is so inconsistent? Faith, such as in religion and mathematics, gives the tendency to remain firm on principles even when we face contrary evidence, and that is its strength.

I totally understand all the opinions about religion out there and I am not arguing anything further than this in any religious aspects. Just so much of HOW we gain knowledge and the fact that we all subconsciously apply faith in this.

[BNR32_Coupe]

They had at least 1 collision so far at the LHC.

The higgs boson could not be found. However, that does not eliminate the possibility of its existence. They'll just have to perform the test continually. Until the boson is found, m theory is just that.. a theory.

[rsx]

Any belief system that promotes ignorance, hate in all forms, can't possibly be the basis for someone's "faith"

[frozen]

http://i54.tinypic.com/24fadu8.jpg

[Graeme S]

They had at least 1 collision so far at the LHC.

The higgs boson could not be found. However, that does not eliminate the possibility of its existence. They'll just have to perform the test continually. Until the boson is found, m theory is just that.. a theory.
It should be noted that it still isn't being used at its full power. They're gonna get there in time.

[Culture_Vulture]

Half a century after the demarcation project and people are still arguing over the fine line that stretches between religion and science. Point in case, the numerous responses in this thread.

Hawking did a good job presenting himself in such a way that he doesn't deny the existence of faith and its various ramifications (God, afterlife, what will yous).
People should learn to keep science and religion the fuck away from each other.

[Valour]

http://u3.thpo.net/d4/h1KW/i127T/t4/wP0/chris-hemsworth-as-thor-in-thor-2011.jpg

Jane Foster: Describe exactly what happened to you last night.
Thor: Your ancestors called it magic...
[Thor skims through a book on Norse mythology]
Thor: ...but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same.

[Chronix]

^that quote doesnt explain anything imo. seemed more like a deus ex machina

[Graeme S]

^that quote doesnt explain anything imo. seemed more like a deus ex machina
Doesn't it? Any technology advanced enough will appear as though it were magic to those who are unaware of its technology.


When technology becomes sufficiently advanced and dispersed, it become an everyday thing; in time our machines will make more machines, and it will do it all at the wave of a hand and at the call of our voice.


There's a scifi novel I read, where each room in a hotel is assigned a "call name". Room 402 would be "Chiron" for example. Anyone in the hotel who wants service for their room or billed to them needs to just say their call name and order what they want. You're telling me that asking an invisible voice for something to happen or be called for wouldn't be seen as magic? It's all relative. It's magic 'til we understand it.

[Pally777]

Coming from someone that has life long experience, one thing people have to realize is just because you go to church doesn't mean you are a Christian. You actually have to harness a relationship.



As a Christian, I couldn't agree more with the above statement.


But anyway as time went by everything was okay I felt like something was a little off.
It was hard enough living a life trying not to sin.


I don't know if I understood you correctly, but are you saying being Christian is about not sinning? If that is what you're saying, then I'm sorry to say that you misunderstood what being Christian is about.


Fast forward 4-5 years or so, I now believe it's IMPORTANT to live the life you want to live. And not be stuck in a huge bubble, life is short and every moment is beautiful.
Reason being not to long ago my mother passed away and..damn do I regret not talking and sharing more moments with her..


Sorry to hear about your lost. My condolences. It's good you realized the importance of those relationships we take for granted everyday.

[bloodmack]

Doesn't it? Any technology advanced enough will appear as though it were magic to those who are unaware of its technology.


When technology becomes sufficiently advanced and dispersed, it become an everyday thing; in time our machines will make more machines, and it will do it all at the wave of a hand and at the call of our voice.


There's a scifi novel I read, where each room in a hotel is assigned a "call name". Room 402 would be "Chiron" for example. Anyone in the hotel who wants service for their room or billed to them needs to just say their call name and order what they want. You're telling me that asking an invisible voice for something to happen or be called for wouldn't be seen as magic? It's all relative. It's magic 'til we understand it.

I am so fucking high, and this makes SO much sense right now. Star Trek had the voice thing, and their little food making things.

[Pally777]

People should learn to keep science and religion the fuck away from each other.

Haha... well put. :thumbsup:

Science is the HOW. Faith is the WHY. There is no contradiction between science and faith, because they are different perspectives.

[Token]

Just like in math. Axioms for example are statements that are known to be true but can never be proved eg. right angles are always 90 degrees or parallel lines will run infinitely without ever touching. How do we know this?

I never post, but I just had to respond to this. There is an entire section of math devoted to proofs of concepts such as this, it's called LINEAR ALGEBRA.

Another flaw in your post is that these concepts are in no way related. The concepts of right angles and parallel lines HAVE to exist, the fact they have special names attached to them is irrelevant.
With religion/God, the universe could exist without either, does it? Who knows... But please do not make a mockery of mathematics in a poor attempt to prove your point.

TL;DR Please Learn2Math

[moomooCow]

I'm an agnostic atheist. It is ignorant to be blindy on either side (religious vs atheist.) There are as many religious bigots as there are atheists, but the problem I have with religion is the indoctrination. Many children are raised to blindly believe and many never question their religion. This type of blind faith and indoctrination can easily be manipulated to breed extremists. The scary thing is that those terrorists know full well what they're doing but believe that they are just in doing so.



HERE BY CHANCE
PROMOTES ALTRUISM
Altruism: 1. The belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. I don't see the problem with believing that we're here by chance and also promoting altruism. Are you implying that people are only altruistic because they believe that's what their god would want them to do.


CAN'T HAVE FREE WILL + DETERMINISM
NO PROBLEM WITH WAVE-PARTICLE DUALITY
Could you explain this a little more in depth? Maybe I don't sufficiently understand the implications of wave-particle duality.


NO OBJECTIVE BASIS FOR MORALS
PUSHES THEM ON OTHERS ANYWAYS
Why does there need to be a basis for morals? woob provided a beautiful quote. Fuck yes.
"Developing love and compassion and reducing anger and spite is a universal activity which requires no faith in any religion whatsoever."
- Dalai Lama


LOVES NATURAL SELECTION
OPPOSED TO KILLING
Just because someone is pro evolution and natural selection, they should be pro killing too? Purposely killing would be entirely contradictory to how natural selection functions.


NO BASIS FOR EXISTENCE
BELIEVES IN HUMAN RIGHTS

Again, the quote from woob addresses this quite eloquently. Why does there need to be a basis for morals? woob provided a beautiful quote. Fuck yes.
"Developing love and compassion and reducing anger and spite is a universal activity which requires no faith in any religion whatsoever."


When I regard to faith as a basis for knowledge, I'm not saying religion. To be clear, faith is the complete trust or conclusive belief in someone or something rather than proof while the word ‘reason’ would require justification or explanation of a belief or action as evidence.
Faith is indescribable and hard to visualize and understand. In fact, it is not easy for someone to have faith because there’s actually no proof or reason in a god’s existence. Some would agree that faith applies to our ways of knowing while some would disagree. Albert Einstein (1879-1955) was once asked in 1915 what he would do if the experiment he did on his general theory of relativity did not agree with his theory. He calmly replied, “So much the worse for the experiment. The theory is right!” Although it was an unjustifiable theory at that time, he had faith and instinctively believed that his theory was correct, paving the path to the most innovative scientific discovery of the 20th century.
Science is all about acquiring knowledge based on repeated experiments and observations for a consistent pattern to find the answers, and faith does not fall under any of this. On the contrary, what makes us think that the consistent pattern that we are working so hard to find is not based on faith that the universe even has governing principles in the first place? In mathematics, if a series of steps used to solve a problem works, we assume that this procedure would be able to solve similar problems. However, it’s a matter of time before a new theorem will be discovered and that the old theorem will become obsolete, going through a paradigm shift. Now, how can reasoning be a legitimate basis for knowledge when it is so inconsistent? Faith, such as in religion and mathematics, gives the tendency to remain firm on principles even when we face contrary evidence, and that is its strength.

I totally understand all the opinions about religion out there and I am not arguing anything further than this in any religious aspects. Just so much of HOW we gain knowledge and the fact that we all subconsciously apply faith in this.

Yeah, I would agree that faith is present in science and in all our lives, but the faith in this context is merely holding on to what theory fits best to explain a situation and has no religious connotation at all.

[SkinnyPupp]

It is ignorant to be blindy on either side (religious vs atheist.)
I disagree. If you were arguing about something like, the big bang theory vs some other scientific theory on how the universe was created, you might have a point.

But arguing religion vs science is not even 'apples vs apples'. One is science which CAN eventually be proven with study, the other is a story book that people only believe in because that's what they've been told to believe in since they were born.

It is not ignorant to say that you don't believe in fairy tales. It is ignorant to even consider it a possibility that just because we are human, there is some great reason for us to exist in this universe. There's not. We're just here because we are.

[moomooCow]

I disagree. If you were arguing about something like, the big bang theory vs some other scientific theory on how the universe was created, you might have a point.

But arguing religion vs science is not even 'apples vs apples'. One is science which CAN eventually be proven with study, the other is a story book that people only believe in because that's what they've been told to believe in since they were born.

It is not ignorant to say that you don't believe in fairy tales. It is ignorant to even consider it a possibility that just because we are human, there is some great reason for us to exist in this universe. There's not. We're just here because we are.

Sorry I probably should have clarified, I think being religious is a good thing, like neggo mentioned earlier in this thread. Anybody can have beliefs of a higher power without having to belong to a religion or strongly associate with one. Religion and faith can essentially be viewed as different entities.

Religion is created, institutionalized and bureaucratized by people. Faith, however, is unconstricted and unconstrained by any of those elements.

As long as people, theists and atheists alike, tell you to rigidly believe in a particular set of rules or doctrines without any room for personal interpretations and beliefs, the tensions between religions and atheists will always exist.

Simply put? Believe in what you want to believe. Just don't be a fucking jackass about it.

It is the mostly institutions of religions that cause problems. Faith in a higher being, heaven and hell, or karma gives some people the strength they need to carry on with their lives. I genuinely think it's great that some people can find strength in faith, but personally, I can't bring myself to take that leap of faith as much as I want to.

And you might notice that being an atheist is the popular thing to be now. You have tons of little kids that just bash on theists without a god damn clue what they're talking about. All they ever do is revert to stating that their faith has no logic, no shit. Anyone who tries to logically debate a theist with the expectation of "winning" and converting the theist is silly.

[flagella]

I disagree. If you were arguing about something like, the big bang theory vs some other scientific theory on how the universe was created, you might have a point.

But arguing religion vs science is not even 'apples vs apples'. One is science which CAN eventually be proven with study, the other is a story book that people only believe in because that's what they've been told to believe in since they were born.

It is not ignorant to say that you don't believe in fairy tales. It is ignorant to even consider it a possibility that just because we are human, there is some great reason for us to exist in this universe. There's not. We're just here because we are.

Seriously, is this guy serious? I have never seen more a biased view than this. Where the hell did you get all your ideas from? Just like a brainless religious fanatic who spews out statements without any basis, you seem to have some extreme views planted in your head since you were small too.

[SkinnyPupp]

Seriously, is this guy serious? I have never seen more a biased view than this. Where the hell did you get all your ideas from? Just like a brainless religious fanatic who spews out statements without any basis, you seem to have some extreme views planted in your head since you were small too.
The best you can do is act like a mindless troll? We have enough of those, thanks.

[SkinnyPupp]

All they ever do is revert to stating that their faith has no logic, no shit. Anyone who tries to logically debate a theist with the expectation of "winning" and converting the theist is silly.
That's kind of what I am getting at. There's no point in arguing over which one is "right" because they aren't the same thing. One is a belief that people have "faith" in without needing proof or knowledge, the other is by definition the pursuit of knowledge. We can co-exist, as long as one side doesn't try to convince the other of anything.

So when a religion person tells an atheist that they are wrong, dinosaur bones were put there by the devil to trick them, all the atheist has to do is smile and nod and say enjoy your life.

Likewise, there's no need for an atheist to explain that no, the dinosaur bones weren't put there by some "evil force" to make people not believe in god. They just choose not to believe in stories, smile and nod, and say enjoy your life :)

[Graeme S]

Many people call science a religion in its own right. It's a system of belief which belittles others who do not believe it is the be all and end all. I can't entirely deny this, but there are some differences.

Science takes an analytical view. "I don't know why something is happening. I have an idea. Let's test that idea!" If the idea tests successfully, then we say that the idea is true (in technical terms, it becomes a "theory", in layman's terms it becomes a "fact"). If it does not test successfully, then we say "well, that can't be right. Let's try and figure something else out somehow".

Religion is not analytical--or if it is, it is so in a different way. Using the example of fossil evidence of dinosaurs (which is not to say all Christians disbelieve in the existence of Dinosaurs or deny that the Earth is greater than 6000 years old--it just proves to be an excellent anecdotal example), when confronted with this, several groups of Christians claim that the fossils were placed there as a test of faith. Essentially, the evidence is adjusted to fit the belief, rather than the other way around.


This is why people claim that Science is not the same as a religion. Certainly, people who rely on Science believe that there is a greater answer that we cannot prove. The difference is that Scientists seek to prove it, rather than seek to explain the "proof" that already exists.



As a sidenote, as someone mentioned earlier, I personally believe that Science is the how and Faith (not necessarily religion) is the Why. There's no reason why two things cannot coexist. Besides, us puny peons sometimes need to trust or believe in something bigger than us, especially in times of crisis.

[flagella]

That's kind of what I am getting at. There's no point in arguing over which one is "right" because they aren't the same thing. One is a belief that people have "faith" in without needing proof or knowledge, the other is by definition the pursuit of knowledge. We can co-exist, as long as one side doesn't try to convince the other of anything.

Coming from a guy who continuously insult religion? LOL

[The7even]

Coming from a guy who continuously insult religion? LOL

Not true. He bashes idiots who believe everything that's showed down their throats like a fat horse dick and then swallow it up and pass it on to their children.

Look up the religion discussion in FC and you'll see what kind of religious idiots im talking about.

"God exists cuz muh book saiz so" and "Durr, everyone will burn in hell if they don't accept ______, never mind if they've never heard of _____".

Shut up.

[Phil@rise]

What do religion and guns have in common? They are both the tools but not the means of destruction.
There is no religion out there that suggests or declares people must kill one another to progress said religion. It is the extremists in all these religions that go forth and do so for their own agendas loosley based on their practiced religion.
I am not overly religious, nor baptised or attend any church or religious institute as such I believe there is a balance between science and god. I also believe that a world without religion is a world that tear itself apart. Religion gives us our basis for morals and compasion based on a fear or respect of a higher power.

[SpicyToFu]

Old news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwPyNOhXFd0

[Mancini]

The thread topic questions the existence of "heaven". Yet so much of the conversation surrounds organized religion.

These two things aren't necessarily related.

[Noir]

The thread topic questions the existence of "heaven". Yet so much of the conversation surrounds organized religion.

These two things aren't necessarily related.

You're really gonna scrutinize why a topic of "heaven" would have a healthy involvement of religion or is arguing the technicality of semantics really one's only few avenues of defense.

[minoru_tanaka]

That's kind of what I am getting at. There's no point in arguing over which one is "right" because they aren't the same thing. One is a belief that people have "faith" in without needing proof or knowledge, the other is by definition the pursuit of knowledge.

Actually if you take a look @ David Hume, following science is faith. Science is just applying faith to the idea that there are rules to the universe that do not change. Eg We dont have any proof of gravity yet we assume it will always be there just based on having experienced it in the past.

[Nightwalker]

Actually if you take a look @ David Hume, following science is faith. Science is just applying faith to the idea that there are rules to the universe that do not change. Eg We dont have any proof of gravity yet we assume it will always be there just based on having experienced it in the past.

Science does not assume that rules do not change. It's an evidence based system of testing and measuring the world around us. If something changes, it fucking changes. Science can then be used to investigate what, why, and how.

[minoru_tanaka]

Science does not assume that rules do not change. It's an evidence based system of testing and measuring the world around us. If something changes, it fucking changes. Science can then be used to investigate what, why, and how.

You test. release and object
you observe. the object falls
you repeat
eventually you see it enough times you conclude, objects that are released will fall.
you base this conclusion on what? the past? Can you say that the past predicts the future?


If something changes, it fucking changes. Science can then be used to investigate what, why, and how.

Using the same example
What? You say gravity. We don't actually know what gravity is. We don't know why it's there and we don't know how it works. If you're about to mention Einstein, please even he called it a "theory"

[TekDragon]

You test. release and object
you observe. the object falls
you repeat
eventually you see it enough times you conclude, objects that are released will fall.
you base this conclusion on what? the past? Can you say that the past predicts the future?



Using the same example
What? You say gravity. We don't actually know what gravity is. We don't know why it's there and we don't know how it works. If you're about to mention Einstein, please even he called it a "theory"

If you googled a bit, you'd know how to find out those answers.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/question232.htm


Also, give this a read, it might be a bit more down your alley.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/

[aliuu]

You test. release and object
you observe. the object falls
you repeat
eventually you see it enough times you conclude, objects that are released will fall.
you base this conclusion on what? the past? Can you say that the past predicts the future?



Using the same example
What? You say gravity. We don't actually know what gravity is. We don't know why it's there and we don't know how it works. If you're about to mention Einstein, please even he called it a "theory"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory just fyi

[Mr.Vic]

I have respect for hawking as a scientist but that theory of his is crap (IMO). and I say that because isn't one of the greatest mysteries of science human consciousness? the notion of heaven is explained by organized religion as the afterlife, however they are not the same. the concept of heaven was introduced by organized religions to keep people inline and to create fear in people who may not reach what they are calling heaven. a form of control.

the afterlife is, however, very real and does exist weather or not you want to believe it now. the afterlife is another form of conciousness.

hasn't science already proved that the reality we live and experience called "waking life" or whatever you want to call it; mearly just made up of light and vibrations that are decoded by the human eye and brain? hasn't science proven that at the core of an atom, the building block of all things to be hollow?

if anyone has pursued lucid dreaming or remote viewing and has been successful, you would know that there is a form of existance outside of our human bodies. science says that isn't possible, unless there has been some recent studies done that can prove what happens in those dream states and how our conscious and sub concious mind work.

the navahoe indians of the southwest have a spiritual tradition (story) about the great grandmother and how she weaved the web of creation that makes up the universe/world. the web of creation as they see it, encompasses all aspects of life and every person (soul/life expereince) is a fragment of that web. when we die we return to the source.

our "minds eye" draws from that source of knowledge.

everything we expereince here and the knowledge gained is returned to "the source" when we die. The source of knowledge is the creator, or god as most will say.

well i went on a rant and got kinda off topic there, ha! feel free to chew my story apart and give a good reason why I'm wrong or you think otherwise

[Graeme S]

You test. release and object
you observe. the object falls
you repeat
eventually you see it enough times you conclude, objects that are released will fall.
you base this conclusion on what? the past? Can you say that the past predicts the future?
It depends. Let's assume that when you are a wee little baby, you said "mama!" and your mother got excited. This gave you a good feeling and then every time you said it again, she got excited. This experience from your past seems to indicate that in the future, this person will enjoy or at least respond in some way to "mama". In this example, the past does predict the future.

Let's assume we're flipping coins. I say that I can accurately predict the fifth flip of a coin from the first four flips. The first four flips to as so:
H T H T

I decide to guess that the next flip will be Heads. There is, however, no way to predict whether or not I am right until the coin is flipped. There's just too much going on.


As far as in general: yes, the past does tend to indicate the future. Predict? No. But then any time that science discovers that the past DOESN'T predict the future, it works on why it doesn't and how we can figure out the rules behind unpredictability. This is why we have probability statistics which explains that *on average* we get roughly a 50/50 distribution with coin flips.

Science is crazy, eh?



Using the same example
What? You say gravity. We don't actually know what gravity is. We don't know why it's there and we don't know how it works. If you're about to mention Einstein, please even he called it a "theory"

You're right, we don't know what gravity is. We don't know why it's there and we don't know how it works. CERN, however, is working on trying to figure out how it works. They have a hypothesis: the Higgs Boson subatomic particle which gives mass. Now, I use this big fancy complicated word (hypothesis) because it's what you seem to think a "theory" is. Let me put it to you like so:


Science Layman
Hypothesis Theory
Theory Fact


When an idea is untested, it is a hypothesis. When an idea is tested and it passes the test, it is then called a theory. This is why we have the theory of Gravity and the theory of evolution and the theory of relativity. To this point in time, those theories reflect our best understanding of the principles behind those ideas.



Just a random aside: other than something that would basically read "and so god has made everything here in all its glory as it is and always will be", what do religious texts have as far as an explanation for Gravity?

[Graeme S]

I have respect for hawking as a scientist but that theory of his is crap (IMO). and I say that because isn't one of the greatest mysteries of science human consciousness? the notion of heaven is explained by organized religion as the afterlife, however they are not the same. the concept of heaven was introduced by organized religions to keep people inline and to create fear in people who may not reach what they are calling heaven. a form of control.

the afterlife is, however, very real and does exist weather or not you want to believe it now. the afterlife is another form of consciousness.
I would agree that human consciousness is one of the greatest mysteries of life (for the time being), but I am not sure how you can say that it is "very real". I'd like to believe it, personally, but I can't be sure. It's one of the reasons I'm sort of an agnostic.

hasn't science already proved that the reality we live and experience called "waking life" or whatever you want to call it; merely just made up of light and vibrations that are decoded by the human eye and brain? hasn't science proven that at the core of an atom, the building block of all things to be hollow?

Yes, what we see and feel is actually all just different forms of particles and radiation interpreted by our various "instruments" (senses). And yes, what we think of as "solid matter" is actually hollow in many parts. Luckily the alignment of such sub- and atomic particles mean that for all intents and purposes for us they really are solid.

if anyone has pursued lucid dreaming or remote viewing and has been successful, you would know that there is a form of existence outside of our human bodies. science says that isn't possible, unless there has been some recent studies done that can prove what happens in those dream states and how our conscious and sub conscious mind work.
See, this is where you lost me. Lucid dreaming is one thing--it's something that you can do, that anyone can do with proper training. Lucid dreaming is a function of control over our subconscious minds--we stay very well in our own bodies and brains, and scans have shown it. Remote viewing, on the other hand, is a myth. The people who claim they can do it have never managed to pass James Randi's million-dollar challenge. When that happens, I may be willing to start thinking about remote viewing being possible.

the navahoe indians of the southwest have a spiritual tradition (story) about the great grandmother and how she weaved the web of creation that makes up the universe/world. the web of creation as they see it, encompasses all aspects of life and every person (soul/life expereince) is a fragment of that web. when we die we return to the source.

our "minds eye" draws from that source of knowledge.

everything we expereince here and the knowledge gained is returned to "the source" when we die. The source of knowledge is the creator, or god as most will say.
That's a wonderful system of belief, but it is just that. It's a system of beliefs. There is no proof.

well i went on a rant and got kinda off topic there, ha! feel free to chew my story apart and give a good reason why I'm wrong or you think otherwise

Done.

[Nightwalker]

Using the same example
What? You say gravity. We don't actually know what gravity is. We don't know why it's there and we don't know how it works. If you're about to mention Einstein, please even he called it a "theory"

There are people far further than Einstein now. You may be interested in the work of Garrett Lisi towards the holy grail of science, a unified theory. This is particularly important in understanding gravity.

In the new Discovery documentary Through The Wormhole (Part 1, Is There A Creator) they interview him (among others) and attempt to explain a bit about his work in laymen terms. It includes both religious scientists, and non-religious. Neither dispute science, but the source of creation is not agreed upon.

That's just something I saw recently, there's a lot of great stuff out there if you're interested. Which you probably aren't.

[minoru_tanaka]

If you googled a bit, you'd know how to find out those answers.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/question232.htm




I provide you with a criticism of the illogical nature of science so to rebut me you post more examples of it. You're acting like a religious person.

Religious person: Someone criticizes God so you provide examples of God's work.

You: someone criticizes science. You provide examples of ideas produced by science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction
You might not want to bother though cause we live in a time period when having faith in science is the norm and I can't imagine humans moving on to any other faith. I have faith. Finding fault with science will not have any obvious practical use for you but to have a deeper insight into your own reasoning.


Also, give this a read, it might be a bit more down your alley.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/

Not going to bother reading this right now. Not because seeing the words "evangelical" or "refute gravity" automatically turn me off but because you posted that just to ridicule someone that is questioning your beliefs. I.E. a tool of a fanatic.

[minoru_tanaka]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory just fyi

Before you start using an "encyclopedia" you should use a dictionary
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory
Otherwise you miss the whole meaning of the article

[minoru_tanaka]

It depends. Let's assume that when you are a wee little baby, you said "mama!" and your mother got excited. This gave you a good feeling and then every time you said it again, she got excited. This experience from your past seems to indicate that in the future, this person will enjoy or at least respond in some way to "mama". In this example, the past does predict the future.

Not questioning the practicality of it but I'm sure you have heard of mothers rejecting their babies.

Let's assume we're flipping coins. I say that I can accurately predict the fifth flip of a coin from the first four flips. The first four flips to as so:
H T H T

I decide to guess that the next flip will be Heads. There is, however, no way to predict whether or not I am right until the coin is flipped. There's just too much going on.


As far as in general: yes, the past does tend to indicate the future. Predict? No. But then any time that science discovers that the past DOESN'T predict the future, it works on why it doesn't and how we can figure out the rules behind unpredictability. This is why we have probability statistics which explains that *on average* we get roughly a 50/50 distribution with coin flips.

Science is crazy, eh?
You guys are getting my point. Science will never discover that the past doesn't predict the future. Science is the process of using the past to predict the future.





You're right, we don't know what gravity is. We don't know why it's there and we don't know how it works. CERN, however, is working on trying to figure out how it works. They have a hypothesis: the Higgs Boson subatomic particle which gives mass. Now, I use this big fancy complicated word (hypothesis) because it's what you seem to think a "theory" is. Let me put it to you like so:


Science Layman
Hypothesis Theory
Theory Fact


When an idea is untested, it is a hypothesis. When an idea is tested and it passes the test, it is then called a theory. This is why we have the theory of Gravity and the theory of evolution and the theory of relativity. To this point in time, those theories reflect our best understanding of the principles behind those ideas.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/law
I don't think you understand theory. It still has another step, law. And even as a law it's still not for sure. EG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_conservation_of_mass
IE later on mass can be converted to energy

[minoru_tanaka]

There are people far further than Einstein now. You may be interested in the work of Garrett Lisi towards the holy grail of science, a unified theory. This is particularly important in understanding gravity.
really? I didn't think that something that somebody said 60 years ago would already be questioned. Something you kids (well not just kids) outside the scientific community need to understand is that the word theory is used when the scientist says "I've done some tests and I'm pretty sure this is true" And that's not my opinion that's the meaning of the word.

[darkfroggy]

If there is a God, why would He allow so much suffering in the world?

Is it fair that some people are born into lives of strife and hunger? Why do some people get everything handed to them on a silver platter, while others will never get anywhere no matter how hard they work. Why does God allow people with promising lives die in tragic hit-and-run accidents? Why does God allow wars to be waged in His name, wars that bring rape, starvation, and carnage? Why does God not come down and guide us to the correct path, rather than killing, fighting, and deceiving our way to it?

Religion has never given me the answers to these questions.

[darkfroggy]

really? I didn't think that something that somebody said 60 years ago would already be questioned. Something you kids (well not just kids) outside the scientific community need to understand is that the word theory is used when the scientist says "I've done some tests and I'm pretty sure this is true" And that's not my opinion that's the meaning of the word.

This is wrong on so many levels.

We use the theory of the water cycle because it's the best we got. Science does not claim to be the end-all source of truths in the world. Scientists always try to back up their data.

Religion claims to hold many truths, but it doesn't give any evidence of their validity. It's saying, "Look, this is how shit works. You're wrong no matter what." And that won't just do in today's world.

[Hawflakes03]

@ darkfroggy

I read a book called "Where is God When it Hurts?" by Philip Yancey which touches upon some of the questions which you have posed. However, I won't quote from the book. I will only talk about my own experiences in trying to answer the questions which you have posed.

Suffering in the World

Christians believe that the world we live in is a temporary one. It used to be perfect until Adam and Eve made a mistake. Then, the world went downhill. That's the textbook answer. The one that I have come to appreciate is: what do we do about it. Sometimes its not so much the why as to, what can I do about it now? How do we react to suffering? The classic example is the World Vision infomercials. Some people will flip the channel. Some will choose to donate. Driving by a homeless person who asks for money, some will choose to ignore. Some will choose to give. How we respond to suffering is probably more important than they why ... because focusing exclusively on the why may blind us from asking ourselves, "What can I do about this?"

Related to the question on suffering, is the question of fairness. I think we can all acknowledge life is not fair. Seemingly random things happen to random people. However, if life was fair, then who decides what the measurement of fairness is. What is a fair wage? What is a fair amount of food I should have today versus someone in another country?

Regarding your comment on tragic accidents, the one that comes to mind most recently is that young baseball coach who was engaged to be married soon and was killed by a drunk driver. I guess God could have come down and created a situation where a the girl would never have gotten into that vehicle. Perhaps she loses her keys. Perhaps she keeps her lights on and the car runs out of juice so it wouldn't start. However, the person who was driving drunk, I believe she left a party. I would like to believe those @ the party are now asking some soul searching questions about what they could have done to prevent this person from driving. Maybe there were one or two people who had the opportunity to stop this person from driving ... but they did not do what their conscience was telling them. Maybe these people made a choice not to do anything.

Everyone has a choice, even if you go right back to Adam and Eve. Its the classic dilemma: God created Adam and Eve and knew they were going to sin but still God created them to be able to choose. Life would be easier if everyone were robots but that's not how we are.

People choose to wage war in so and so's name. People choose to rape and pillage.

If God is omnipotent and God is everywhere, then how does God feel when he sees all this sadness going on around him? I believe God is weeping.

One could argue that He could stop all this evil from happening but He chooses not to. I sincerely believe He is trying by giving us the choice. We see what we see and we have to choose what we are going to do about it.

[observer]

Actually if you take a look @ David Hume, following science is faith. Science is just applying faith to the idea that there are rules to the universe that do not change. Eg We dont have any proof of gravity yet we assume it will always be there just based on having experienced it in the past.

If anything, Hume is considered by literally all scholars as an atheist. Certainly Hume will not stop and say that fine, since we do not have the absolute certainty, we can conclude that God is the creator, end of discussion.

Life is about balancing likelihoods. Let's see, which is more likely, should I follow Family Radio that the world will end on May 21 or be it in 2012, or should I not quit my job? Can I be 100% the former is wrong, no, but you make a judgement call. Do you call that faith? I beg you not. It's an educated guess which comes from critical thinking.

Personally, I find it absolutely unacceptable science can be considered a religion whatsoever. Science asks questions which we may never find the answers, while religion provides answers which may never be questioned.

[observer]

If God is omnipotent and God is everywhere, then how does God feel when he sees all this sadness going on around him? I believe God is weeping.

One could argue that He could stop all this evil from happening but He chooses not to. I sincerely believe He is trying by giving us the choice. We see what we see and we have to choose what we are going to do about it.

But if there was a God, he would know all this sadness would happen, the moment he created the Garden of Eden.

God is omnipotent.

Adam may not know how he would act, but God knew exactly what Adam would do. No big surprise there.

[observer]

the afterlife is, however, very real and does exist weather or not you want to believe it now. the afterlife is another form of conciousness.


How do you conclude that afterlife is very real? Consciousness is real as far as I can tell, but afterlife, I highly doubt it.

[minoru_tanaka]

This is wrong on so many levels.

We use the theory of the water cycle because it's the best we got. Science does not claim to be the end-all source of truths in the world. Scientists always try to back up their data.

Religion claims to hold many truths, but it doesn't give any evidence of their validity. It's saying, "Look, this is how shit works. You're wrong no matter what." And that won't just do in today's world.

Sorry dude but did you just call the water cycle a theory? That it's the best we got? Can you elaborate on this? What part are you skeptical of? Rain? Evaporation?

[minoru_tanaka]

If anything, Hume is considered by literally all scholars as an atheist. Certainly Hume will not stop and say that fine, since we do not have the absolute certainty, we can conclude that God is the creator, end of discussion.
Self contradicting unless you don't consider Hume a scholar.

But true we don't have absolute certainty of the creation of the universe and it's human nature to assume that something complicated must be planned.

Life is about balancing likelihoods. Let's see, which is more likely, should I follow Family Radio that the world will end on May 21 or be it in 2012, or should I not quit my job? Can I be 100% the former is wrong, no, but you make a judgement call. Do you call that faith? I beg you not. It's an educated guess which comes from critical thinking.

I admit it doesn't take a lot of faith for me to ignore end of the world prediction but still not the certainty or eg 1 + 1 = 2


Personally, I find it absolutely unacceptable science can be considered a religion whatsoever. Science asks questions which we may never find the answers, while religion provides answers which may never be questioned.

You don't find this paragraph a bit hypocritical? First you say you find it unacceptable to question science as a religion because religion is something that may not be questioned?

[minoru_tanaka]

@ darkfroggy

If God is omnipotent and God is everywhere, then how does God feel when he sees all this sadness going on around him? I believe God is weeping.

One could argue that He could stop all this evil from happening but He chooses not to. I sincerely believe He is trying by giving us the choice. We see what we see and we have to choose what we are going to do about it.

If God is omnipotent and the creator then he should know that he is creating sadness and suffering. And there is a lot of suffering in the world. Maybe we are wrong to think that God is good. We come into the world suffering. Ever heard of a baby being born laughing?

[Nightwalker]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWOf6HcXAiny5ELWAny1TKzzTBeO1Bb Z8Yq09Gk5XWpkW77ZVR&t=1

[observer]

Self contradicting unless you don't consider Hume a scholar.

But true we don't have absolute certainty of the creation of the universe and it's human nature to assume that something complicated must be planned.


I admit it doesn't take a lot of faith for me to ignore end of the world prediction but still not the certainty or eg 1 + 1 = 2



You don't find this paragraph a bit hypocritical? First you say you find it unacceptable to question science as a religion because religion is something that may not be questioned?

No I don't.

To question whether science is a religion, you have to lay out terms defining both.

For me, the distinction is clear, when someone claims to know what happens after we die, I call that religious talk.

Sure, we can only be absolutely certain on things we define such as mathematics, or sensations we can feel such as our consciousness; but then, so what?

Like I said earlier, it's all about making judgement calls. Of course, no one knows with absolute certainty the end of the world will come in a few hours, but which is more likely?

[cow20xx]

But if there was a God, he would know all this sadness would happen, the moment he created the Garden of Eden.

God is omnipotent.

Adam may not know how he would act, but God knew exactly what Adam would do. No big surprise there.

if got knows what adam would do, why didn't he just fucking move the apple higher so they can't reach it?
why doesnt the omnipotent god just delete the fucking snake?

so let me get this straight.
1.god MADE adam without knowledge and the ability to identify right and wrong.
2.god then put an apple from the tree of knowledge which GIVES adam the knowledge of right and wrong in a place that god KNOWS adam and eve can get to.
3. god KNOWS the EVILsnake which he created in the perfect garden of eden will lure adam to eat the apple which would result in perma ban from garden of eden.
4. snake trolled adam and eve to get the apple in GOD'S OWN BACKYARD.
5. god gets mad at adam and eve and perma ban their asses from garden of eden when it's perfectly preventable in so many different ways but god decides to blame adam and eve for something that IT(god) set them up for.

sounds to me the christian god is the ultimate fucking troll AND the people that believe in this horsecrap are slightly brain damaged.

[observer]

ps

6. god continues to be upset at humanity with every baby born inheriting adam's original sin.
7. yet we are supposed to thank this god 24/7.

[SkinnyPupp]

if got knows what adam would do, why didn't he just fucking move the apple higher so they can't reach it?
why doesnt the omnipotent god just delete the fucking snake?

so let me get this straight.
1.god MADE adam without knowledge and the ability to identify right and wrong.
2.god then put an apple from the tree of knowledge which GIVES adam the knowledge of right and wrong in a place that god KNOWS adam and eve can get to.
3. god KNOWS the EVILsnake which he created in the perfect garden of eden will lure adam to eat the apple which would result in perma ban from garden of eden.
4. snake trolled adam and eve to get the apple in GOD'S OWN BACKYARD.
5. god gets mad at adam and eve and perma ban their asses from garden of eden when it's perfectly preventable in so many different ways but god decides to blame adam and eve for something that IT(god) set them up for.

sounds to me the christian god is the ultimate fucking troll AND the people that believe in this horsecrap are slightly brain damaged.
I'm not a christian, but what I understand of the religion, the point is not that "man should never sin" but rather "man is by nature a sinner" and what you do about it (pray to god, go to church, be a good person as much as possible, etc) is what matters.

So I guess the point is, don't feel too bad about doing bad things - you'll be forgiven in the end if you are religious. The rest of us will be left behind.

[Pally777]

I'm not a christian, but what I understand of the religion, the point is not that "man should never sin" but rather "man is by nature a sinner" and what you do about it (pray to god, go to church, be a good person as much as possible, etc) is what matters.


I don't want to make this thread into a Bible lesson or anything, but when I see people misunderstand what Christianity is about I have to speak up and clarify.

You had it right when you said "man is by nature a sinner". The part you misunderstood is when you said it's what you do about it that matters.

Being Christian is all about having faith in what Jesus Christ did for us when he died for our sins. It was an act of grace (<-- keyword here). There is nothing we can do to earn ourselves into heaven or to correct our wrongs.

Let me use the Bible's own words as proof of this:

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

[SkinnyPupp]

Oh so I was over esitmating what christians are expected to do to get into heaven? wow

[observer]

Being Christian is all about having faith in what Jesus Christ did for us when he died for our sins.

Jesus never died right he resurrected, no? The death didn't exactly happen did it?

And what did he do for us? God created us, blamed us for what Adam did. What sins did the newborn commit?

[Noir]

Being Christian is all about having faith in what Jesus Christ did for us when he died for our sins. It was an act of grace (<-- keyword here). There is nothing we can do to earn ourselves into heaven or to correct our wrongs.


Religion is just one big bait and switch scam. The sales pitch always never includes the terms and conditions.

Yes Christ died for our sins, but what do you need to secure your place in heaven, just accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour right? Easy.

But what are the terms and conditions of accepting Jesus Christ? Being Christian?

Then What are the terms and conditions of being a Christian? Going to church? Tithes, offerings, gather more followers for tithes and offerings?



Seriously, it's just one big scam that's been a perversion of old scrolls by the few at the time that could decipher its meaning as a method of controlling those who did not have the ability to read.

Why the hell else is Christianity so rife with contradiction?

Love thy neighbor unless they're gay.
God is a loving God unless you're not his follower.
God is perfect but God is a jealous God
etc.


Me thinks that idea of "faith" is great to begin with but somewhere down the middle something seems wrong.

[AsianBabe8]

1. God doesn't need people to love Him back. He made the universe He doesn't require anything. He's not petty enough to need our devotion or sacrifice or money or guilt. This isn't to say that people exploit religion and make it seem like it's about guilt and money.

2. He does however want you to love Him for your own good. Yea, He's God and He's good.

3. True love cannot come without freedom. God could have designed robots who fuck and give birth to angels who just kiss His butt ... but instead, He gave us free will and freedom to choose him or not. That's why the forbidden fruit ( not apple) is so "fucking low"- to give man choice. Otherwise God would be mind raping Adam by sticking him in a universe where things can only go ONE way... back to butt kissing God. Anyways there are enough people in this forum alone who don't want to believe in God and would not appreciate ending up dead and wake up in an eternity where they need to sing praises to God.

4. Since Eve was deceived and Adam was all like....uh.. she did it. They sinned, God told them not to do such and such but they did it. At that point, they were like babies with umbilical cords cut away from the womb of Eden. Sin like a genetic defect came into existence, it's like the DNA strand that codes for death.. after that it's always replicated and passed on.

5. Sin is death, spiritually speaking. To rid yourself of it you can't just say sorry, you had to kill some poor thing or sacrifice, usually the most perfect animal you had excluding humans. This is what Christian call the Old Testament.

6. Then comes the New Testament. Here's where Jesus comes in. He was perfect Son of God and He was the part of God that broke off and decided to give man a second chance. He stepped down from heaven and became human, DIED, yes actually died, ( and quite horribly) to symbolize that sacrificial animal to pay for ALL of humanity's sin. He could do this whereas no perfect animal could because he was 1. Son of God 2. Really really cool 3. Kinda had to do it because there would be no other way for you or me to connect back to God.

[AsianBabe8]

Religion is just one big bait and switch scam. The sales pitch always never includes the terms and conditions.

Yes Christ died for our sins, but what do you need to secure your place in heaven, just accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour right? Easy.

But what are the terms and conditions of accepting Jesus Christ? Being Christian?

Then What are the terms and conditions of being a Christian? Going to church? Tithes, offerings, gather more followers for tithes and offerings?



Seriously, it's just one big scam that's been a perversion of old scrolls by the few at the time that could decipher its meaning as a method of controlling those who did not have the ability to read.

Why the hell else is Christianity so rife with contradiction?

Love thy neighbor unless they're gay.
God is a loving God unless you're not his follower.
God is perfect but God is a jealous God
etc.


Me thinks that idea of "faith" is great to begin with but somewhere down the middle something seems wrong.

The people make it wrong by being people. We are hypocrites, liars, manipulative selfish beings and it's usually the Christians we hate, not really what they have to offer. God is a jealous God not because He's small and petty, but for MY good I love Him. Theoretically for Christians, if God is really creator and all knowing, then the smartest thing I can do is follow Him. Think of life as a math test. Jesus is the calculator, you can do things your way and use pen and paper, or you can use the calculator.. that the teacher (God provides). Thing is you only have so much time to do this test and no one knows how much. Some people take the calculator and rather than do math, they fling it at other people or they get distracted by trying to spell HELLO or whatever. In the end, the teacher designed the test and gave you a calculator to use. He could have given everyone As but not everyone wants to graduate. Certain questions aren't harder or easier to solve, even if you've got a calculator. Sometimes those who have a calculator get cocky too or they scam other students and offer to do their questions for a fee.
I could go on but it's like 3:38 am.. OO...

I also love my gay friends but I still think it's against God's intention for man or women to love each other romantically. Yet, I still hug drug dealing lesbian girls when they cry. I think it's EASIER to point out someone's gay lifestyle and become a hater because the OTHER sins like lying or stealing is just as bad. ( But everyone does it so ..let's not beat a liar to death because I am also a liar.. it's much easier to pick on the odd one out.)

God loves whether or not you are His followers. Love doesn't always mean getting the job you want, the guy you want, nor does it keep my grandma from dying long and drawn out death from cancer. It doesn't protect me from depression when the most loving person in my family commits suicide nearly a year later. ( All true btw )

And most of the time I hate Christians about as much as anyone in here. I would know I'm one of them.

[Noir]

Sweet! So if God loves everyone whether you're his followers or not, why is it important to be a Christian?

Why does one need the label of Christianity; and undergo the terms and conditions to achieve such label?

Why is it important to Christians to increase their numbers? They justify it as saving others, but for those on the outside with a subjective POV it just looks like they just want to increase membership.

If God loves everyone equally, we should all be saved shouldn't we.





The funny thing about reaches and justifications is just leaves more questions than the questions they just answered. Trust me, I know all the entire song and dance. I was a christian for the first 18 years of my life.

[TypeRNammer]

I was a christian for the first 18 years of my life.

And then....? :troll:

[Culverin]

Oh so I was over esitmating what christians are expected to do to get into heaven? wow

Bingo. You got it.

SkinnyPupp,
There is a lot of misconception and twisting of Christian faith in mass media. It sounds like you've been gotten bits and pieces over time, but nobody has ever laid out the picture for you as a whole. It's a cause and effect thing, I'll get to it.

I have to do some quick definitions though, because the meaning behind these words have been kind of watered down in our society. In Christian theology, the terminology is a bit more loaded.

Definition:


God: Creator of all things. Infinitely full of love and inherently good. He is the father figure that knows best and wants the best for us.
Sin: Stuff that God told us isn't good. Even what we might think are little things like cheating at poker or telling little white lies to get ahead at work. It's just not healthy for us or for the community.



As I understand it, it kinda goes like this:

Part 1 - Our Choice


God Created Humanity with choice.
God made us to live in perfect community with him. Community goes hand in hand with choice. Mindless borg drones isn't a community. He gave us choice.
God does not get along with sin. Where God is, sin cannot exist there.
Like many things in nature, this is a polar opposite. Much like getting close to the sun. Where God is, darkness is not.
Humanity chose to sin.
Personally speaking, I do exactly the same. Everyday, I am faced with little decisions. Sometimes I cheat and lie to gain an upper hand in life or to find the easy way out of situations.
In order to choose to sin, humanity had to walk away from God in order not to get burned. The result is an imperfect life. Sin isn't a small deal though, no matter how hard we try and how hard we work, we cannot fix what we broke. It's like tossing your ipod off an office building, some things, we just aren't equipped to fix. It is at this point that "man is by nature a sinner". This is the "chasm of sin" you often hear.


Part 2 - God's Plan


God sees the crappy world we have built up, it is filled with deceit, hate and malice. Like a father seeing his child in pain, he takes mercy on us.
His mercy comes in the form of Jesus. God chooses him as our sacrifice, he's our decoy to get burned. Jesus is our bridge so we have a way back over that chasm of sin. In other words, Jesus is God giving us a loophole to make the choice all over again.
God is not obligated to give us this loophole. Jesus as our bridge back into a community with God isn't something we obtained by our deeds, we don't deserve it, as such it is a gift. This is what we call Grace.

Part 3 - Our 2nd Chance at choosing

In order to find our way back, all we have to do is accept God's Grace. To do so means a couple things:

That you have sinned (once again, see above for definition).
That you can't bridge the chasm of sin.
That God sent Jesus has as a sacrifice for you.


As Christians, this second chance is something we accept with infinite humbleness and gratitude. But it is also a bit loaded as well. To get there, you must have implicitly acknowledged:


That there is a God.
That this God is full of power AND good.
That this God thought enough of you to bring you back into perfection.


Religion is just one big bait and switch scam. The sales pitch always never includes the terms and conditions.

Yes Christ died for our sins, but what do you need to secure your place in heaven, just accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour right? Easy.

But what are the terms and conditions of accepting Jesus Christ? Being Christian?

Then What are the terms and conditions of being a Christian? Going to church? Tithes, offerings, gather more followers for tithes and offerings?
Noir, you are right. Some of what you have mentioned there are part of being a Christian, but I think you mistake true intent of what I have laid out. We gather at church for worship because we are grateful to God. I tithe because I am a realist. A pastor is a community leader, one that can fulfill that role best as a full time position.

As for gathering followers, it's not so they can pay the church. It's so more people also get that 2nd chance. Think of it as that our Freebies Thread. Somebody thought that thread was awesome, they got free stuff simply by signing up. They were so excited to get free stuff, they told me about it. I've gotten a razor and fake pocky and floss. So I think it's awesome too and a a result, I've told my friends about those deals and that thread. It's kinda like that.



Seriously, it's just one big scam that's been a perversion of old scrolls by the few at the time that could decipher its meaning as a method of controlling those who did not have the ability to read.

As for the old scrolls issue. I don't have the correct stats at hand, but perhaps somebody can jump in here. Anyways, those multiple and numerous scrolls you refer to were found all across the middle east. People have been translating them and scouring them for their meanings, that's why we have english translations of the bible. It's not like people can't read it now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#New_Testament





I think historically, there have been a lot of bad theology and bad practice. The Catholic Church has done great damage to Christianity in the form of their bureaucracy, business practices and how they intertwine it with salvation.
ie. Indulgences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence)


I just ask that you ignore the many bad apples Christianity has had, and just look at the message.

[Culverin]

Yes, it's a repost, but it's kinda relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb7n9B_8m8

[observer]

If we were truly given the freedom to choose, we would not be punished for picking the 'wrong' choice.

Yes, it's up to you, your life or your money.

[Noir]

As for gathering followers, it's not so they can pay the church. It's so more people also get that 2nd chance. Think of it as that our Freebies Thread. Somebody thought that thread was awesome, they got free stuff simply by signing up. They were so excited to get free stuff, they told me about it. I've gotten a razor and fake pocky and floss. So I think it's awesome too and a a result, I've told my friends about those deals and that thread. It's kinda like that.

Yeah but that awesome Freebies thread doesn't condemn you to eternal damnation if you decide not benefit from it instead.


See, this is exactly why I call it a sales pitch. Every Christian makes it all sounds like God's love is all sunshine and lollipops at the beginning. Yet when one is subject to the religion, everyone must abide by the same Draconian practices lest they incur the wrath of God.

So suddenly God is not so nice? But the sales pitch never mentioned that.

[observer]

YouTube - &#x202a;patcondell's Channel&#x202c;&rlm;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMqTEfeqvmM

[Pally777]

If we were truly given the freedom to choose, we would not be punished for picking the 'wrong' choice.

Yes, it's up to you, your life or your money.

I don't know if u'd agree that every action has a reaction, simple physics. The same is true for our choices. Each choice has a consequence and it's not all a result of God's punishment. It's like flipping a coin. If u got heads the consequence is you can't have tails and vise versa. Hope that makes sense to u.
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[cow20xx]

I don't want to make this thread into a Bible lesson or anything, but when I see people misunderstand what Christianity is about I have to speak up and clarify.

You had it right when you said "man is by nature a sinner". The part you misunderstood is when you said it's what you do about it that matters.

Being Christian is all about having faith in what Jesus Christ did for us when he died for our sins. It was an act of grace (<-- keyword here). There is nothing we can do to earn ourselves into heaven or to correct our wrongs.

Let me use the Bible's own words as proof of this:

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

And where did original sin come from? Adam ate the apple.
why did adam eat the apple? because the snake said so.
who made the snake? god
who made adam? god
did god made adam with the ability to tell right or wrong? no, the power is held in the apple which god told adam not to touch, unfortunately god didn't make adam with the ability to follow proper instruction, AND god made the evil snake that was just lurk about the tree in the garden.

if the christian fable is true, who is REALLY to blame,
god.

microsoft made xbox360 with a faulty x-clamp which contributed to RROD, and you decide to open it up yourself and fix it with a better method and microsoft decides to void your warranty.

Not the exact scenario but you know in both case the maker is to blame.

My point is, if the christian fairy dust daddy did a better job in making adam, this whole bullshit of original sin and jebus and thousand years of bullshit wont even occurred.
actually, if sky daddy just didnt make the fucking snake in the perfect place in the world, problem solved.

But i guess that would be too boring and god needed to create sinful human so he can go rape a woman named mary and force her husband and her to raise his bastard child.

[AsianBabe8]

Sweet! So if God loves everyone whether you're his followers or not, why is it important to be a Christian?

Why does one need the label of Christianity; and undergo the terms and conditions to achieve such label?

Why is it important to Christians to increase their numbers? They justify it as saving others, but for those on the outside with a subjective POV it just looks like they just want to increase membership.

If God loves everyone equally, we should all be saved shouldn't we.

Heaven is when you can spend eternity with God. It's a privilege to and a choice. If you don't want to then you've cast your vote during your lifetime on earth.

If you choose not to believe in God and you found yourself in His presence in heaven, then that's not free will, not freedom, not love.

That's why even tho God loves everyone a great deal, He won't stick everyone in heaven. He respects the choice of us little beings.

I can save my own skin, I want to save those I love so that I can see them again when I die. If you know about a freebie, it's just normal to want to share.



Trust me, I know all the entire song and dance. I was a christian for the first 18 years of my life.

I don't trust you, if you were to have believed from the inside out, you'd be on the other side of this debate. Chances are that you did the rituals, did the songs and dance but maybe it was only an emotional or physical ritual... not a spiritual belief. Or something life changing happened...like your parents finally stopped forcing u to go to a church or a friend issue.

Most Christians just do that, the rituals, their lives don't change and they might be the biggest dipshit you know... I can't say whether or not it's enough to get into heaven. Heaven might be just some comforting insurance for people who are scared, but fear isn't a good motivator for ppl to believe. Nor are these little debates. I dunno what you went through but whatever it is that put you off was probably the people not really your own relationship with God. If you want to talk about it in person, I'd be happy to meet up for coffee.

[m!chael]

.

[Pally777]

And where did original sin come from? Adam ate the apple.
why did adam eat the apple? because the snake said so.


So Adam made a choice to listen to the snake and not his father or his creator... hmm... interesting.


who made the snake? god
who made adam? god
did god made adam with the ability to tell right or wrong? no, the power is held in the apple which god told adam not to touch, unfortunately god didn't make adam with the ability to follow proper instruction, AND god made the evil snake that was just lurk about the tree in the garden.

if the christian fable is true, who is REALLY to blame,
god.


I think most of what you said is true. Adam may not know what is right and wrong. However, he had a choice to decide whether to listen to God who told him not to do something.

Genesis 2:16
And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

OR listen to Eve who listened to the snake who told them exactly opposite of what God said.

Genesis 3:4-5
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

In all of this, Adam and Eve had a choice. God gave them freewill. You could ask why God gave them this and the answer is love.


My point is, if the christian fairy dust daddy did a better job in making adam, this whole bullshit of original sin and jebus and thousand years of bullshit wont even occurred.
actually, if sky daddy just didnt make the fucking snake in the perfect place in the world, problem solved.

But i guess that would be too boring and god needed to create sinful human so he can go rape a woman named mary and force her husband and her to raise his bastard child.

I don't think the vulgarity is necessary. If I talked about something or someone you really believe in (e.g. your parents or family), how would you feel?

[bengy]

Heaven is when you can spend eternity with God. It's a privilege to and a choice. If you don't want to then you've cast your vote during your lifetime on earth.

If you choose not to believe in God and you found yourself in His presence in heaven, then that's not free will, not freedom, not love.

That's why even tho God loves everyone a great deal, He won't stick everyone in heaven. He respects the choice of us little beings.

I can save my own skin, I want to save those I love so that I can see them again when I die. If you know about a freebie, it's just normal to want to share.

I don't trust you, if you were to have believed from the inside out, you'd be on the other side of this debate. Chances are that you did the rituals, did the songs and dance but maybe it was only an emotional or physical ritual... not a spiritual belief. Or something life changing happened...like your parents finally stopped forcing u to go to a church or a friend issue.

Most Christians just do that, the rituals, their lives don't change and they might be the biggest dipshit you know... I can't say whether or not it's enough to get into heaven. Heaven might be just some comforting insurance for people who are scared, but fear isn't a good motivator for ppl to believe. Nor are these little debates. I dunno what you went through but whatever it is that put you off was probably the people not really your own relationship with God. If you want to talk about it in person, I'd be happy to meet up for coffee.

Did you grow up in a religious family? Been taught the Bible and went to church every Sunday? If so, everything you say means nothing, since you've been brainwashed from the time you were a child. You believe in God and heaven because that's what you've been told to believe in since you were born. How do you expect people to take you seriously? People usually believe in the truth, in facts. Something that you can see, smell, touch.

You've never seen God, but you believe in him, because someone, who hasn't seen God either, tells you that he exists. Does that make sense to you???

[flagella]

sounds to me the christian god is the ultimate fucking troll AND the people that believe in this horsecrap are slightly brain damaged.

Maybe that's why my Christian friends around me are the ones working in top investment/accounting firms, med school graduates, etc. and sorry what do you do again?

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of non-Christian friends as well who are extremely brilliant, but all of them are able to show respect to religions and express their thoughts in a polite manner.

I just don't think you're even in a position to call anyone brain damaged when you can barely argue without having to continuously swear. :rofl:

[Graeme S]

Did you grow up in a religious family? Been taught the Bible and went to church every Sunday? If so, everything you say means nothing, since you've been brainwashed from the time you were a child. You believe in God and heaven because that's what you've been told to believe in since you were born. How do you expect people to take you seriously? People usually believe in the truth, in facts. Something that you can see, smell, touch.

You've never seen God, but you believe in him, because someone, who hasn't seen God either, tells you that he exists. Does that make sense to you???
Not meaning to pollute the dialogue, but using the whole "someone who tells you something who isn't sure tells you something" happens a lot. Also: please don't get down to the whole "you've been brainwashed", thing. We're not talking about terrorism and thinking that the Western World is evil, we're talking about belief of God and Faith. (Yes, capitals on both).

As much as I am not a godboy, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't argue in that manner. Just makes the rest of us look like idiots who dismiss things out of hand and paint with a broad brush.

[bengy]

Not meaning to pollute the dialogue, but using the whole "someone who tells you something who isn't sure tells you something" happens a lot. Also: please don't get down to the whole "you've been brainwashed", thing. We're not talking about terrorism and thinking that the Western World is evil, we're talking about belief of God and Faith. (Yes, capitals on both).

As much as I am not a godboy, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't argue in that manner. Just makes the rest of us look like idiots who dismiss things out of hand and paint with a broad brush.

Chick sounds pretty brainwashed to me. Didn't know brainwashing was only associated with terrorism against the west. :rolleyes:

Maybe this is the word to describe it better? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indoctrinated

[AsianBabe8]

Did you grow up in a religious family? Been taught the Bible and went to church every Sunday? If so, everything you say means nothing, since you've been brainwashed from the time you were a child. You believe in God and heaven because that's what you've been told to believe in since you were born. How do you expect people to take you seriously? People usually believe in the truth, in facts. Something that you can see, smell, touch.

You've never seen God, but you believe in him, because someone, who hasn't seen God either, tells you that he exists. Does that make sense to you???

Not really. I didn't go to church or rather, it didn't mean anything till I was in gr 8 or gr 10- when massive trauma hit my family.

Even tho I believe, I don't always believe, I sit on the fence juggling the facts, reality, and spirituality. For me believing is a constant struggle, I constantly doubt. I have studied the Koran and other religious text but in the end. I rejected Christianity in first year and maintained that atheistic mindset till pieces of my life moved me back in line with God.

Sometimes I get really angry at God for the things in my life, I shout, I cry, I rage against the injustices I feel I've been put through. When someone in my family dies, I don't believe in God, I'm too angry.

It makes sense to me how most people feel about God, I've been in both camps. I think in the end these debates are sort of meaningless- people just get more confident in their beliefs, these debates don't suddenly make people Christian or not. God most certainly doesn't need me, an imperfect, ill tempered vicious tongued hypocritical Christian to defend Him.

Explaining God to people is like explaining colour to a blind man or music to the deaf: God is something to be experienced, He cannot be explained, cannot be ritualized, manipulated or compartmentalized into a revscene forum post.

I only post here because someone asked me to, and also because I think if people are to reject God they should do so because they've examined everything and made a choice. However, mass media makes this process an deceptively easy process. Google image God or anti God, you get witty phrases and funny pictures to post. Easy. It's much harder to finally be real and read from the source and ask questions. I don't think anyone will take me up on the coffee meetup, they simply want to make a stink about what they think they believe in and take off without any real commitment.

[Skyline350gt]

Ah the controversy, if only one knew the answer to religion every mystery will be solved.

But for now everything on Earth, life as we know it will always be a search for "Why we are inhabiting this life."

Religion is so of the past and quite frankly doesn't make sense to our time and age now.
Live life freely and be your own scientist!

[DC5-S]

Heaven is living and breathing and having the opportunity to live on this wonderful planet
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[AsianBabe8]

Chick sounds pretty brainwashed to me. Didn't know brainwashing was only associated with terrorism against the west. :rolleyes:

Maybe this is the word to describe it better? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indoctrinated

LOL. There are stupid brainwashed Christians, there are also a lot of stupid brainwashed Atheists/Agnostics.

I don't think the Muslim religion has much to do with terrorism, someone just hijacked the religion for their own intentions. If you are attacking Christians, leave the Muslims out of it, don't rely on just an easy cliche phrases to discredit me or what I believe in. Understand that some people also manage to hijack idiocy and claim it for their own as if they invented it...this happens irregardless of gender, upbringing, culture, and religion. ( Some people however do a better job of this than others. )

I don't go around asking non believers :
Were you raised stupid and taught to be ___________? Do you sleep in every Sunday and not do a lick of research before entering sensitive debates? If so, then whatever you have to say is invalidated and you are just brainwashed.

Of course not, It doesn't actually help anyone understand anything better 'cept that you are good at stereotyping things that you already believe in. Wow. Not very ground breaking is it? The point of these types of debates I think, is to understand things better and it's not really about winning, because no one wins, we just waste a lot of time on this thread and laugh at the amusing posts. Anyways, it's a gorgeous day outside so go and enjoy it. =)

[Valour]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k

this explains Catholicism really well

[LiquidTurbo]

LOL. There are stupid brainwashed Christians, there are also a lot of stupid brainwashed Atheists/Agnostics.


:speechless::failed:


If there was a bunch of cults that promoted belief in Unicorns, and people believed them, they were brainwashed and now believe in Unicorns.

If someone says. "Hold the fuck up, there are no Unicorns since there isn't a shred of evidence of their existence." They are not brainwashed.

There is no such thing as a brainwashed atheist.

[adambomb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIK3GXdkxL0&feature=related

[Alatar]

Religulous. Worth the watch.

[Pally777]

Religulous. Worth the watch.

Saw it when it was shown at the Vancouver Film Festival. It was quite funny actually. They found all the funniest or most ignorant religious people to interview. Too bad none of that reflects the majority of believers nor does it reflect what any of those religions are about. It was just a funny documentary for me to watch, because it poked fun at religion based on some semi-facts and semi-ignorance.

[Pally777]

I don't think anyone will take me up on the coffee meetup, they simply want to make a stink about what they think they believe in and take off without any real commitment.

I agree that most people just want to express their opinions here. Nobody in this thread really wants to take the time to research about Christianity, but debate solely on their opinions or what they've heard. All that is okay.

But if they did want true understanding of what Christianity is about, they'd have to take time to experience it first hand. Nobody wants to waste their time doing that right? :)

[observer]

I don't know if u'd agree that every action has a reaction, simple physics. The same is true for our choices. Each choice has a consequence and it's not all a result of God's punishment. It's like flipping a coin. If u got heads the consequence is you can't have tails and vise versa. Hope that makes sense to u.
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

Thanks Pally777.

As pattern seeking animals, we like to visualize the world governed by the laws of cause and effect, so in essence, we can say that every action has a reaction based on our observation.

However, I fail to see how the above relates to the fairness of the reward and punishment ethical system Christianity proposes.

If there was an almighty God, he would know every time whether it would be heads or tails, just as he would know Adam would take the apple, the moment he was created.

Since God created everything, it's only fair that he should be responsible for everything. Freewill exists in our heads (as we ultimately do not understand how we act), but not in the almighty.

[minoru_tanaka]

Not really. I didn't go to church or rather, it didn't mean anything till I was in gr 8 or gr 10- when massive trauma hit my family.


There are no atheists in foxholes

[Nightwalker]

Traumatic events do cause all kinds of psychological damage.

[quasi]

I only post here because someone asked me to, and also because I think if people are to reject God they should do so because they've examined everything and made a choice. However, mass media makes this process an deceptively easy process.


I don't trust you, if you were to have believed from the inside out, you'd be on the other side of this debate. Chances are that you did the rituals, did the songs and dance but maybe it was only an emotional or physical ritual... not a spiritual belief. Or something life changing happened...like your parents finally stopped forcing u to go to a church or a friend issue.


So you think people should make their own choice after examining both sides of the coin. That said, if they reject God you don't believe they really took God in at any point because if they did they would never turn away. You're trying to come off like you're all for people making educated decisions but you dismiss them and their opinion if it doesn't support God, so typical.

[Bouncing Bettys]

There are no atheists in foxholes

This line pisses me off to no end because of how full of shit it is.

My father is a US Marine combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He took lives and lost men fighting along side him. He nearly lost his life from a mortar round landing right behind him, was awarded a Purple Heart, and spent months recovering in a hospital. He was an atheist before enlisting, an atheist in the service, and remains an atheist to this day. At no point did the thought of a god enter his mind.

Some other combat veterans with noted atheists beliefs: Ernest Hemingway, Pat Tillman, and Ted Williams. Joe Simpson author of Touching The Void referring to the moment he lay at the bottom of a deep crevasse, dehydrated, alone and with a broken leg, he states: '"I was totally convinced I was on my own, that no one was coming to get me. I was brought up as a devout Catholic. I'd long since stopped believing in God. I always wondered if things really hit the fan, whether I would, under pressure, turn round and say a few Hail Marys and say 'Get me out of here'. It never once occurred to me. It meant that I really don't believe and I really do think that when you die, you die, that's it, there's no afterlife."

Not only that, there is a specific organization to recognize atheists in combat: the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers with over 200 members in the US

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."

[Pally777]

Thanks Pally777.

As pattern seeking animals, we like to visualize the world governed by the laws of cause and effect, so in essence, we can say that every action has a reaction based on our observation.

However, I fail to see how the above relates to the fairness of the reward and punishment ethical system Christianity proposes.

If there was an almighty God, he would know every time whether it would be heads or tails, just as he would know Adam would take the apple, the moment he was created.

Since God created everything, it's only fair that he should be responsible for everything. Free will exists in our heads (as we ultimately do not understand how we act), but not in the almighty.

I'm glad to have a civilized and educated conversation.

Freewill and justice (similar to reward/punishment) isn't an easy concept to grasp and I'm still struggling.

You mentioned God created Adam and everything else, so he should be responsible. I would agree with that and he does take responsibility. First, I'm going to use a real world analogy about responsibility of creator/the created and then I'll explain how God takes full responsibility.

I would assume you and I were both created by our own parents. Are we the responsibility of our parents? Yes, but up to a certain point. When we were kids, parents would be responsible for us, but at a certain point (usually 18?) we are deemed responsible enough for our actions by law. Would you or anyone hold your parents responsible for what you do when you're an adult who is able to decide and reason? Your parents created you, taught you, raised you, but you are responsible for your own actions or what I'd call freewill, right? The same can be said of technology. We do not hold the person who created fire responsible for arson, right?

Now, God is more responsible than our parents in that He is responsible for you eternally. That's why, God knowing that we could never be perfectly righteous and never doing wrong, made a way to right our wrongs. He took responsibility by dying for the all the wrong we have/will done/do; this includes Adam's original sin.

This is what I call grace. We are responsible for our decisions/wrongs and the consequences, but God loves us like our parents do and has taken on full responsibility for the punishment. I don't deserve this gift, but he gives it to all of us freely. All we need to do is accept that He has done this for us through Jesus Christ.

I know my analogy isn't perfect, but I hope it conveys the general idea.

[darkfroggy]

So, why does God allow innocent humans to die from the actions of others?

Can he explain why a single mother of 3 can die from the irresponsible actions of a drunk driver? I'm pretty sure she didn't choose to die, but the drunk driver chose to hop behind the wheel.

If God was responsible, he would tell us to stop fighting wars in his name. He would not live in some higher-up place, distant from all the suffering and strife. He would not tease us with "salvation" for all those "deemed worthy".

So God lives in Heaven by himself, leaving Earth (and its humans) to the domain of Satan. Seems more like shunning rather than accepting.

[observer]

I'm glad to have a civilized and educated conversation.

Freewill and justice (similar to reward/punishment) isn't an easy concept to grasp and I'm still struggling.

You mentioned God created Adam and everything else, so he should be responsible. I would agree with that and he does take responsibility. First, I'm going to use a real world analogy about responsibility of creator/the created and then I'll explain how God takes full responsibility.

I would assume you and I were both created by our own parents. Are we the responsibility of our parents? Yes, but up to a certain point. When we were kids, parents would be responsible for us, but at a certain point (usually 18?) we are deemed responsible enough for our actions by law. Would you or anyone hold your parents responsible for what you do when you're an adult who is able to decide and reason? Your parents created you, taught you, raised you, but you are responsible for your own actions or what I'd call freewill, right? The same can be said of technology. We do not hold the person who created fire responsible for arson, right?

Now, God is more responsible than our parents in that He is responsible for you eternally. That's why, God knowing that we could never be perfectly righteous and never doing wrong, made a way to right our wrongs. He took responsibility by dying for the all the wrong we have/will done/do; this includes Adam's original sin.

This is what I call grace. We are responsible for our decisions/wrongs and the consequences, but God loves us like our parents do and has taken on full responsibility for the punishment. I don't deserve this gift, but he gives it to all of us freely. All we need to do is accept that He has done this for us through Jesus Christ.

I know my analogy isn't perfect, but I hope it conveys the general idea.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, it's good to share viewpoints.

My problem with the real world analogies is that they do not factor in the most important point of discussion here, the "almighty power" of God.

That is the key, this almighty entity cannot be compared to our parents or any human being as God is supposed to have omnipotent power, knows everything and can do anything, all the time.

This unique theoretical limitless power creates many problems:

1. In God's eyes, our action should be as certain and obvious as mathematics, he knew how his creations would act, the couple, the apple, the snake, all part of his plan. Does it make it fair then to punish us and not God himself?

2. Our discussion of the kindness of this God 'sacrificing his only son', or 'dying for us' is self-contradictory, as ideas such as scarcity and death only apply to finite beings and not the almighty.

At the end of the day, what I call grace is unconditional acceptance, not based on whether you believe in me or not, I'll still give you my best. No coercion, no rules to follow.

[Nightwalker]

Arguing about what a god would or would not do seems pretty ridiculous with no evidence of a god existing in the first place. By making arguments about the nature of the imagined god, you're simply just indulging in someone else's fantasy.

[cow20xx]

Maybe that's why my Christian friends around me are the ones working in top investment/accounting firms, med school graduates, etc. and sorry what do you do again?

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of non-Christian friends as well who are extremely brilliant, but all of them are able to show respect to religions and express their thoughts in a polite manner.

I just don't think you're even in a position to call anyone brain damaged when you can barely argue without having to continuously swear. :rofl:

Not swearing is simple, but it doesn't change my stance and point.

I am not saying ALL believers are brain damaged, but honestly the more deeply you believe in these fairy tales the less rational you are and chances are the less intelligent you are.

I've known friends that are in med school too and they are deeply devoted. But a lot of them ended up being believers due to lost of love ones when they are young and the church slipped in for comfort. It's conditioned into their head and as irrational and crazy as the whole religion sounds, they would like to believe there is a heaven and one day they could see their dead parents EVEN THOUGH they know they have no proofs and even their own professional fields point to the contrary.

It's hard to show respect for religion as a whole when it's so full of crap and their believers are spewing unreasonable shits and forcing the rest of the world to play along.

[observer]

Arguing about what a god would or would not do seems pretty ridiculous with no evidence of a god existing in the first place. By making arguments about the nature of the imagined god, you're simply just indulging in someone else's fantasy.

A fantasy, a good lie, a drug, or a nightmare? I reject them not because of the lack of proof but get turned off by their own inconsistencies. Not just Christianity but all religions I come across.

It's good to understand religion a little in my opinion, as they are disgustingly powerful.

However, that doesn't make them right, nor should we give them the unconditional respect. Yes, we give the people the regard and care, but not the painfully obvious lies.

When I see pastors and monks, I don't not see evil beings, I see lost and confused victims who lost their ability to think rationally. I see naive people used.

A very good movie called Marjoe made in 1972, an academy award winner, uncovering how nasty this religion business is:

http://www.youtube.com/user/monkeymichel#p/c/9B3893DC3B554D72/0/g-O9aNl2Xrk

[observer]

having the opportunity to live on this wonderful planet
Posted via RS Mobile (http://www.revscene.net/forums/announcement.php?a=228)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl5dlbCh8lY&feature=related

[Valour]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8ABrcmWgH8

If you love God you will give him your foreskin.

[Noir]

I'm glad to have a civilized and educated conversation.

Freewill and justice (similar to reward/punishment) isn't an easy concept to grasp and I'm still struggling.

You mentioned God created Adam and everything else, so he should be responsible. I would agree with that and he does take responsibility. First, I'm going to use a real world analogy about responsibility of creator/the created and then I'll explain how God takes full responsibility.

I would assume you and I were both created by our own parents. Are we the responsibility of our parents? Yes, but up to a certain point. When we were kids, parents would be responsible for us, but at a certain point (usually 18?) we are deemed responsible enough for our actions by law. Would you or anyone hold your parents responsible for what you do when you're an adult who is able to decide and reason? Your parents created you, taught you, raised you, but you are responsible for your own actions or what I'd call freewill, right? The same can be said of technology. We do not hold the person who created fire responsible for arson, right?

Now, God is more responsible than our parents in that He is responsible for you eternally. That's why, God knowing that we could never be perfectly righteous and never doing wrong, made a way to right our wrongs. He took responsibility by dying for the all the wrong we have/will done/do; this includes Adam's original sin.

This is what I call grace. We are responsible for our decisions/wrongs and the consequences, but God loves us like our parents do and has taken on full responsibility for the punishment. I don't deserve this gift, but he gives it to all of us freely. All we need to do is accept that He has done this for us through Jesus Christ.

I know my analogy isn't perfect, but I hope it conveys the general idea.

See, this is why I can not look at religion as nothing more than a sales pitch.

Look at how long all that song and dance before the punch line. But like observer said, a gift is a gift is a gift, which unfortunately, in a Christian's case is an absolute lie. It's not a gift if their are draconian terms and conditions tied to it.

Why do you think people tune out religious people almost immediately when they're out sharing? Is it because they sound ridiculously parrallel to this:

"Congratulations, you have won $1 Million Dollars. Now all you have to do, is solve this complex mathematical question, send us a downpayment of $20,000 to release your funds, and lastly provide us your personal info and account information, for Direct Deposit not personal reason :rolleyes:."

But wait, that's just technique #1. There's also technique #2: Guilt trip mofos to compliance, which works well for teens to young adults; "God loves us but we hurt him everyday with our sins :rolleyes:" "We are sinners by nature, we are not worthy of his gift unless we do X variable"

Or best one yet, technique #3 which best works for kids: "outright fear / bribery"

"If you do not do X, you will forever burn and tormented by millions of demons in a lake of fire where your worst nightmares are a daily reality"

"whereas if you DO "X", you will be given mansions of gold, sunshine and lollipop happiness for the rest of your life"




So you see, Christians can talk about calculators, parental analogies, foxholes, life or death experiences to try and coax, justify and euphemize what their intentions are but in reality, the real reality, is that everyone else see's through all that fancy talk and see's either of the above 3 scams.

[observer]

The wonderful thing about the internet is that non-believers can easily reach out and learn that we are not the only ones who seriously question religious beliefs.

There are so many brilliant scientists and thinkers who share our secular, naturalistic worldviews.

[LiquidTurbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXy42p3PKUs

Faith healing anyone?

[Pally777]

I don't know why a lot of you seem to have negativity towards Christianity. Maybe it was because of the mistakes that were made in the name of the religion historically. Maybe it is something that had happened to you guys personally.

I can see if someone disagrees with Christianity, but I don't see just disagreement from some of you. I see hatred. When it gets that that point, there is certainly something going on personally. You don't get to hatred unless it affects you personally.

Regardless, all it comes down to is trust, wouldn't you agree? Where do you place your trust? I choose to place it in a God to fix this screwed up world. You choose to place it in other human beings (e.g. scientists) to fix this screwed up world. Am I understanding this correctly?

[Pally777]

It's not a gift if their are draconian terms and conditions tied to it.


What draconian terms and conditions from the Bible are you referring to? I only see one criteria and that's believe. As I've already quoted from the Bible, it doesn't require any works.

If someone gives you a gift by placing it on the table in front of you, you have to believe that it is free and then take it from the table before you actually receive it, right? Or do you mean that the person should just shove it into your hands? I see the act of taking the gift the same as believing. Maybe that's where we don't agree?


So you see, Christians can talk about calculators, parental analogies, foxholes, life or death experiences to try and coax, justify and euphemize what their intentions are but in reality, the real reality, is that everyone else see's through all that fancy talk and see's either of the above 3 scams.

I'm seriously confused, but what intentions are you referring to? What exactly does a Christian get from trying to share their believe with someone else? If there is some reward I get for sharing Christianity, I have certainly been in the dark about it!

[LiquidTurbo]

I'm seriously confused, but what intentions are you referring to? What exactly does a Christian get from trying to share their believe with someone else? If there is some reward I get for sharing Christianity, I have certainly been in the dark about it!


Wow, don't even know your own religion so well! Stop going on revscene and listen to God's word.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.





You should be baptizing and converting everyone you know. If you TRULY believed that doing this would save people from a horrible existence in the afterlife, you would devote your life doing so. But you're not.

Anyway, you're perceiving questioning of Christianity as 'hatred'. It's time to wake up. We live in the 21st century where people don't get killed in the name of 'heresy' for speaking up against their ill-logic and sheer nonsense of Christianity (and other religion).

Religion has been given a free pass from scrutiny for FAR too long. People are starting to apply critical thinking to religion, and I think most people agree that this is a good thing.

[SkinnyPupp]

I don't know why a lot of you seem to have negativity towards Christianity. Maybe it was because of the mistakes that were made in the name of the religion historically. Maybe it is something that had happened to you guys personally.

I can see if someone disagrees with Christianity, but I don't see just disagreement from some of you. I see hatred. When it gets that that point, there is certainly something going on personally. You don't get to hatred unless it affects you personally.

Regardless, all it comes down to is trust, wouldn't you agree? Where do you place your trust? I choose to place it in a God to fix this screwed up world. You choose to place it in other human beings (e.g. scientists) to fix this screwed up world. Am I understanding this correctly?
If you knew more about your own religion and how it is organized, you'd know why a lot of people hate it.

[Pally777]

1. In God's eyes, our action should be as certain and obvious as mathematics, he knew how his creations would act, the couple, the apple, the snake, all part of his plan. Does it make it fair then to punish us and not God himself?


Ok, maybe that's where we can agree to disagree. I think it's fair to punish the people who choose to do wrong even though God created them and knows they would do wrong. The point of my analogy was to show that the "created" is responsible for their own choices and not the "creator".


2. Our discussion of the kindness of this God 'sacrificing his only son', or 'dying for us' is self-contradictory, as ideas such as scarcity and death only apply to finite beings and not the almighty.


Would it be the same as saying it isn't anything for a rich man to give to the poor man? Or a dying man giving his life for someone else since he's dying anyways? I find what you mentioned the same as these cases. Maybe that's were we disagree also, because I don't see the scarcity or immortality being significant. I care only about the intention.


At the end of the day, what I call grace is unconditional acceptance, not based on whether you believe in me or not, I'll still give you my best. No coercion, no rules to follow.

Whereas you see believe as a condition for the gift, I see it as a logical step to the acceptance of the gift. For me, it's logical that I need to believe that the gift exists, before I can receive it. The other things you mentioned about coercion and rules do not exist in the Bible. It might exist when people twist Christianity into a tool for their own use.

It's so saddening for me to see that so many people are turned away from Christianity, because of mistakes and misuse by religion.

[Bouncing Bettys]

Its pretty difficult to avoid religion, God is even mentioned in our national anthem.

Not to go off on a tangent but did anyone else have to recite the Lord's Prayer in public school at the start of each day?

I had to do this in my grade 1 class in 1987-88 even though I was raised an atheist (well more so provided with various viewpoints from books and such and left to figure it out on my own and David Suzuki was my favourite). The words of the prayer had no meaning to me and I recall a sikh girl and myself making faces at each other or drawing stuff like boobs on our chalkboards, trying not to get caught by our teacher. I never had to recite it in kindergarten or in the grades following.

[Pally777]

If you knew more about your own religion and how it is organized, you'd know why a lot of people hate it.

I do know somewhat about the history. I took a full-day course in it. Although, I have to admit, I sort of fell asleep at the end of the course haha... I was mostly interested in how it all began, because that was the exciting part.

I know what you're saying though... there was a lot of misuse of the believe by people to gain power. They really screwed up Christianity. I hope there is some way that all those wrongs can be made right, because Christianity in itself is not like how those people portray it to be.

[observer]

I don't know why a lot of you seem to have negativity towards Christianity. Maybe it was because of the mistakes that were made in the name of the religion historically. Maybe it is something that had happened to you guys personally.

I can see if someone disagrees with Christianity, but I don't see just disagreement from some of you. I see hatred. When it gets that that point, there is certainly something going on personally. You don't get to hatred unless it affects you personally.

Regardless, all it comes down to is trust, wouldn't you agree? Where do you place your trust? I choose to place it in a God to fix this screwed up world. You choose to place it in other human beings (e.g. scientists) to fix this screwed up world. Am I understanding this correctly?

Pally777, we non-believers are really not that different from you, we just happen to distrust one more religion than yourself.

If you picture how you view Buddhism and Muslim or Taoism, you'll begin to understand our distrust.

I think I can safely speak for others here, we just find Christianity a little unrealistic, maybe there is no easy way to fix this world, but the solution certainly doesn't seem to lie with this God we wish for.

[Pally777]

Wow, don't even know your own religion so well! Stop going on revscene and listen to God's word.


Nice try on making it personal. I didn't know I was being scrutinized here, because I thought we were talking about Christianity not me being a Christian personally.


Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You should be baptizing and converting everyone you know. If you TRULY believed that doing this would save people from a horrible existence in the afterlife, you would devote your life doing so. But you're not.


I'm certainly doing those things with people who want to learn about Christianity. I do not, however, force it upon anyone. You are free to believe in whatever you'd like.

You really need to stop personalizing this debate even though you are very good at trying to do that.

[observer]

Whereas you see believe as a condition for the gift, I see it as a logical step to the acceptance of the gift. For me, it's logical that I need to believe that the gift exists, before I can receive it. The other things you mentioned about coercion and rules do not exist in the Bible. It might exist when people twist Christianity into a tool for their own use.

It's so saddening for me to see that so many people are turned away from Christianity, because of mistakes and misuse by religion.

To follow your real world analogy, if I want my child to do well, I will try my best to give my child everything, it doesn't whether he or she accepts me.

Would I want him/her to thank me 24/7? I think not. If I had the almighty power, I'll make everyone go straight to heaven.

As a Christian, of course you find it sad that people turn away from Christianity, just like Buddhists and Muslims find it sad that people don't accept their faith.

Don't be sad. With different cultures in the world, it is impossible for all to have the same faith, perhaps science and rationalism is the solution, critical thinking unites human beings and elevates them from petty superstition.

[bengy]

Let's be honest, all religion is about is alien sightings and regular people trying to make sense of it!!!!

[LiquidTurbo]

Nice try on making it personal. I didn't know I was being scrutinized here, because I thought we were talking about Christianity not me being a Christian personally.



I'm certainly doing those things with people who want to learn about Christianity. I do not, however, force it upon anyone. You are free to believe in whatever you'd like.

You really need to stop personalizing this debate even though you are very good at trying to do that.

I'm merely pointing out your own hypocrisy. And way to address nothing I said.

[Presto]

You should be baptizing and converting everyone you know. If you TRULY believed that doing this would save people from a horrible existence in the afterlife, you would devote your life doing so. But you're not.


It's always the fuckin' non-believers, such as yourself, that think they know what we (Christians) should be, or should not be doing. Up yours, buddy. Although, spreading the Gospel is important, Jesus himself emphasizes the most important commandment is to love God with everything in your being, and to love your neighbor as yourself. If we fail sometimes, it's no big deal, we've still got that salvation.

[Pally777]

I'm merely pointing out your own hypocrisy. And way to address nothing I said.

What you're saying is that I'm a bad Christian, so Christianity is bad?
That's like saying if I'm a bad hockey player, then hockey is bad in general. Does that even make sense?

The practitioner does not represent how good/bad the practice is. You should be scrutinizing the practice independent of its practitioner if you're trying to be objective, logical or scientific.

[LiquidTurbo]

It's always the fuckin' non-believers, such as yourself, that think they know what we (Christians) should be, or should not be doing. Up yours, buddy.


I was referring to this quote in context:


I'm seriously confused, but what intentions are you referring to? What exactly does a Christian get from trying to share their believe with someone else? If there is some reward I get for sharing Christianity, I have certainly been in the dark about it!


But no matter.

Anyway, this IRONY of your statement is really hilarious. I wanted to fail you, but you are a mod :D.


Here's a list of things that Christians/Catholic REGULARLY tell the WORLD what they should or should not be doing.

-You should be against abortion, pro-life. (The fuck? A woman has the right to her own BODY, thank you.)
-Marriage should only be between one man and one woman. Gay marriage is wrong. (Often, these preachers don't realize that gay marriage has ZERO consequences in their life.)
-You should NOT TEACH evolution in schools and teach creationism
-You should go to Church
-You're going to hell
-Masturbating is a sin.
-Using a condom is a sin (if you're catholic) this one particularly enrages me.


etc.

So no, its up YOURS. (well, your religion, particularly).

[LiquidTurbo]

What you're saying is that I'm a bad Christian, so Christianity is bad?
That's like saying if I'm a bad hockey player, then hockey is bad in general. Does that even make sense?

The practitioner does not represent how good/bad the practice is. You should be scrutinizing the practice independent of its practitioner if you're trying to be objective, logical or scientific.

Nice try on making it personal. I didn't know I was being scrutinized here, because I thought we were talking about Christianity not me being a Christian personally.



I'm certainly doing those things with people who want to learn about Christianity. I do not, however, force it upon anyone. You are free to believe in whatever you'd like.

You really need to stop personalizing this debate even though you are very good at trying to do that.


Ok, let's look at your recent comments..




I don't know why a lot of you seem to have negativity towards Christianity. Maybe it was because of the mistakes that were made in the name of the religion historically. Maybe it is something that had happened to you guys personally.

I can see if someone disagrees with Christianity, but I don't see just disagreement from some of you. I see hatred. When it gets that that point, there is certainly something going on personally. You don't get to hatred unless it affects you personally.

Regardless, all it comes down to is trust, wouldn't you agree? Where do you place your trust? I choose to place it in a God to fix this screwed up world. You choose to place it in other human beings (e.g. scientists) to fix this screwed up world. Am I understanding this correctly?


How many times did you say "I", "I", "I". The post was all about yourself and what YOU understand, so of course it was going to be personal!

Anyway, I'm done replying. It's no fun to talk about advance hockey strategies with someone who doesn't know the game very well, unless they want to find out more about their own game.

So when you tell them more about their own game, they suddenly get offended that they don't know much. Your analogy between religion and hockey is sorta ridiculous too.

[flagella]

Wow, don't even know your own religion so well! Stop going on revscene and listen to God's word.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.





You should be baptizing and converting everyone you know. If you TRULY believed that doing this would save people from a horrible existence in the afterlife, you would devote your life doing so. But you're not.

Anyway, you're perceiving questioning of Christianity as 'hatred'. It's time to wake up. We live in the 21st century where people don't get killed in the name of 'heresy' for speaking up against their ill-logic and sheer nonsense of Christianity (and other religion).

Religion has been given a free pass from scrutiny for FAR too long. People are starting to apply critical thinking to religion, and I think most people agree that this is a good thing.

lol, this is what happens when you read a couple of passages out of Bible and nothing else.

[murd0c]

There has to be a heaven cause I sure feel like I am there right now!!

[Pally777]

How many times did you say "I", "I", "I". The post was all about yourself and what YOU understand, so of course it was going to be personal!

Anyway, I'm done replying. It's no fun to talk about advance hockey strategies with someone who doesn't know the game very well, unless they want to find out more about their own game.

So when you tell them more about their own game, they suddenly get offended that they don't know much. Your analogy between religion and hockey is sorta ridiculous too.

Do you know me?
Do you know what I've done as a Christian?
Are you a Christian?
How do you judge if someone is a "good" Christian if you're not one nor have you studied the Bible?

I don't know who's more hypocritical here talking about someone or something they don't even know. Ever heard the phrase "pot calling the kettle black"?

You are right, it is pointless discussing this with each other.

[DC5-S]

There is no heaven, heaven is on earth!! /thread. time to close this up

[Hawflakes03]

My post a couple of pages ago actually touched upon something which a lot of posters have also, directly and indirectly, touched upon: personal choice. I became a Christian back in 2006 as I was heading off to law school. I wanted to figure out why all my friends around me were becoming Christians or have been Christians for many years. I've also been put off by the hypocrisy I've seen in Christians throughout my life not to mention the countless number of atrocities witnessed throughout human history.

I won't get into the details of how I came to believe but it was a half a year long process. I was not shy to ask questions and I inquired to a lot of people who believed in God. My friend who was preaching to me told me that I could be presented with all kinds of truths and evidence but eventually, I'm going to have to make a leap of faith as to believe whether God exists or not.

Christianity is not easy. You have a "perfect" God but we see the imperfect world which we live in. The very people who supposedly represent him often stumble through life committing wrongs both big and small. For my part, I know that everyday is full of choices I make. I know I make them freely. I don't feel the iron will of God. I make good choices and I make bad choices.

Going back to a comment by a previous poster about all the evil and tragedy that happens in this world, I don't have an answer. Anyone who says they do, I would take it with a grain of salt. God is a love, that I do believe, but also I know God is a jealous God and a God who will avenge. The Bible is seemingly full of contradictions but I ask this: if the early church was out to create a scam to fool people, why would they include seemingly contradictory stories and characteristics of God? It would be a lot simpler if they just put one out unified story.

Again, it all goes back to choice. Whether you choose to believe or not, its a choice. When you encounter hurt in this world, you choose how to respond.

[Hawflakes03]

@ DC5-S

In a way, I agree with you: heaven is on Earth. If God doesn't exist and there is no afterlife, then we should be trying to live our life as best as possible now. Everyday, we should be making choices that don't hurt others and build ourselves up to be a better person.

As a Christian, I also know that the time I have here is limited but a chance to live by faith. I know I should endeavor to be someone who exhibits God's qualities: patience, love, kindness, longsuffering, etc.

Pain can exist in heaven. Pain exists in our current world, if we assume our current world to be heaven. However, pain will be a memory in the Christian heaven but only as a reminder as to how one strives and suffers to do better things.

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

There is no heaven, heaven is on earth!! /thread. time to close this up

no. if anything it's hell on earth. we've just become smart enough to overcome and adapt to the torturous environment of this "hell". we have to constantly battle with life to keep pain and suffering away, we have done a pretty good job lol.

i'd like to think of religion this way. they're all right in some aspect.

but they've been interpreted thousands of years ago (if not more), by mere human beings, that understand nothing about the universe. they could only be translated into something that the masses could understand. stories are the only way humans can explain things. human corruption, greed, and especially the human ego has warped and changed an already inaccurate understanding of "religion" over so many years, that really, you can't prove or disprove anything.

on one hand religion cant prove jack shit, but then again science can't explain many things either.

there's a difference between someone that believes in something (you can call that religious or pragmatic agnosticism/agnostic theism) vs. someone who is just blindly following a cult.

i use the world cult, because that's basically what it is if you follow it so blindly and take every word printed in some book, or preached to you by some higher ranking cultist, to heart 110%. it's also super hypocritical, especially if you have gone to school and have at least half a brain.

plus just to throw this out, christians of this thread, please answer this, what about religions before christianity? before the egyptians?
people haven't changed, i don't believe religions have either (the core structure), but the surface most definitely has.

i truly believe ego has a huge part of this.

[Sifu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUVXEmJRGns

[LiquidTurbo]

My post a couple of pages ago actually touched upon something which a lot of posters have also, directly and indirectly, touched upon: personal choice. I became a Christian back in 2006 as I was heading off to law school. I wanted to figure out why all my friends around me were becoming Christians or have been Christians for many years. I've also been put off by the hypocrisy I've seen in Christians throughout my life not to mention the countless number of atrocities witnessed throughout human history.

I won't get into the details of how I came to believe but it was a half a year long process. I was not shy to ask questions and I inquired to a lot of people who believed in God. My friend who was preaching to me told me that I could be presented with all kinds of truths and evidence but eventually, I'm going to have to make a leap of faith as to believe whether God exists or not.

Christianity is not easy. You have a "perfect" God but we see the imperfect world which we live in. The very people who supposedly represent him often stumble through life committing wrongs both big and small. For my part, I know that everyday is full of choices I make. I know I make them freely. I don't feel the iron will of God. I make good choices and I make bad choices.

Going back to a comment by a previous poster about all the evil and tragedy that happens in this world, I don't have an answer. Anyone who says they do, I would take it with a grain of salt. God is a love, that I do believe, but also I know God is a jealous God and a God who will avenge. The Bible is seemingly full of contradictions but I ask this: if the early church was out to create a scam to fool people, why would they include seemingly contradictory stories and characteristics of God? It would be a lot simpler if they just put one out unified story.

Again, it all goes back to choice. Whether you choose to believe or not, its a choice. When you encounter hurt in this world, you choose how to respond.

Just curious as to why you decided Christianity, and not Islam?

[observer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUVXEmJRGns

Sam Harris, a great thinker.

[observer]

The Bible is seemingly full of contradictions but I ask this: if the early church was out to create a scam to fool people, why would they include seemingly contradictory stories and characteristics of God? It would be a lot simpler if they just put one out unified story.

Reminded me of the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o