Six-Four: 20 Years Today (June 4th Movement, Tiananmen Square)

[+Kardboard+]

You make it seem like that our magical Canadian ground and magical Canadian air somehow magically makes magical democracy work.

OK.

Granted, you are right, neither end of the political spectrum would be very good, hence them being called 'extreme.' Our system works pretty darn well, but then, rampant stupidity is a signature of being human. Humans are stupid, but some just more stupid than others. We live in a society where we can learn about so much and then choose, without violent persecution, what to believe.

In China, one doesn't have that privilege. Great Firewall of China, the oppression of free discussion and flow of ideologies, dreams, what have you.

Choice? Sure, they still have choice. It's binary: accept the status quo or reap the consequences of opposing it.

[Ludepower]

I love these sellout chinaman who defend their communist country. Newflash...you're only in Canada cause your parents are rich....while you turn a blind eye on the corruption and oppressed enviroment your 'people" are suffering in.

[Yc]

Originally Posted by +Kardboard+

You make it seem like that our magical Canadian ground and magical Canadian air somehow magically makes magical democracy work.

OK.

Granted, you are right, neither end of the political spectrum would be very good, hence them being called 'extreme.' Our system works pretty darn well, but then, rampant stupidity is a signature of being human. Humans are stupid, but some just more stupid than others. We live in a society where we can learn about so much and then choose, without violent persecution, what to believe.

In China, one doesn't have that privilege. Great Firewall of China, the oppression of free discussion and flow of ideologies, dreams, what have you.

Choice? Sure, they still have choice. It's binary: accept the status quo or reap the consequences of opposing it.

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

[Yc]

Originally Posted by Ludepower

I love these sellout chinaman who defend their communist country. Newflash...you're only in Canada cause your parents are rich....while you turn a blind eye on the corruption and oppressed enviroment your 'people" are suffering in.

I am sorry, I don't really get ur point..

I have never turn a blind eye on the corruption..

and you are saying i am selling out China, b/c I came here?..

[dna82]

Originally Posted by Yc

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

oh god, more like russia? christ this just gets worse and worse.

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by Yc

u dont think the developed countries do the same thing?

in highschool we learn communism is bad, we read books about how bad they are, "1984?? or is it 86??" and

read Animal Farm..it's even better

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS

[Yc]

Originally Posted by dna82

oh god, more like russia? christ this just gets worse and worse.

I am sorry, not to offend you or anything

just wondering whats ur education level?

so i can decide whether to use normative or positive statments

[dna82]

Originally Posted by Yc

I am sorry, not to offend you or anything

just wondering whats ur education level?

so i can decide whether to use normative or positive statments

kinnergartan

[carisear]

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

[twitchyzero]

Yc, please justify how censorship is beneficial with a large population.

I've seen many Pro-china advocates tell me Westerners think China's a shit hole because "well if we have 1.3 billion people, wouldn't there be more 'shit' news coming from China?"

Well if China has 1.3b people, wouldn't their good news be amplified as well?

[dna82]

Originally Posted by carisear

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

oh dear dear dear, communism as an ideal in its purest form should work well. lol. yes, an idea transferred into reality would be perfect because, well, it would be in essense, just an idea. understand? the problem does not herein lie with the idea, but with the idealist who has not factored in the harsh realities.

communism does not work, never has, never will, all attempts are met with failure and all tainted by its presence become, what is known as, shit countries. Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and the rest of the backwater nations.

now that we got that out of the way.

your an idiot just like yc. lol communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well, I got a good chuckle out of that one.

[124Y]

Originally Posted by carisear

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

Communism as an ideal in it's purest form may work, but only for emotionless robots. We all have individuality and want to have the freedom of choice as we are human. China's communism ways turned their government wealthy and powerful yet neglecting the living standards in every citizen's lives. The disparity between the rich and the poor is getting greater and greater.

[124Y]

Originally Posted by Yc

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

Why are you wondering about other people's education level when you cannot use proper grammar?

[Culture_Vulture]

^humanitarianism aside, these same 'shit countries' can probably wipe Canada right off the map.

Besides, nobody ever gave 'ideal' a clear definition.

[dna82]

Originally Posted by Physixx

^humanitarianism aside, these same 'shit countries' can probably wipe Canada right off the map.

Besides, nobody ever gave 'ideal' a clear definition.

NATO

gg.

p.s you just butchered the definition of 'ideal'

[+Kardboard+]

Originally Posted by Yc

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

Totally agree. Are they Communist there in the purest sense of the word? No, not at all. They're a different animal altogether, and while I don't agree with how they handle a lot of things, I realize more and more that a) I don't know that much and b) China is still moving forward.

Originally Posted by carisear

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

dna82 is just rageful. Communism as an ideal is awesome. Will it ever work? No. What 124Y says below:

Originally Posted by 124Y

Communism as an ideal in it's purest form may work, but only for emotionless robots. We all have individuality and want to have the freedom of choice as we are human. China's communism ways turned their government wealthy and powerful yet neglecting the living standards in every citizen's lives. The disparity between the rich and the poor is getting greater and greater.

It's true, but there is a burgeoning middle class (I know that much ) and people there are educated. Educated enough to know better, to know what's going on. Some take extreme measures, some not so much. Hmm...for better or worse, China's the future. You don't ignore 1.3B Chinese...who make everything.

6/4 was a tragedy, no denying that. Could it have been handled differently? I'd like to think so. Could it have been worse? Most definitely. I'm gonna stop pretending I know what to say, but in the end, just remember what happened that day, know what happened that day and form your own opinion from that.

[124Y]

Originally Posted by Physixx

^humanitarianism aside, these same 'shit countries' can probably wipe Canada right off the map.

Besides, nobody ever gave 'ideal' a clear definition.

Yeah...because they put military development before caring for their citizens...

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by 124Y

Communism as an ideal in it's purest form may work, but only for emotionless robots. We all have individuality and want to have the freedom of choice as we are human. China's communism ways turned their government wealthy and powerful yet neglecting the living standards in every citizen's lives. The disparity between the rich and the poor is getting greater and greater.

Canada has a form of Social Democracy which in itself is a branch of Marxist Communism. Many other countries have this form of government as well, such as the UK, Germany, and India. Marxist Communism, which is the Grand Daddy of Communism, doesn't prevent or stunt individualism or personal freedoms. In fact, it embraces them. The theory is that by following the ideals of Communism, the ability for someone to stunt another person through class conflicts and the exploitation of others is diminished, thus allowing an individual to follow their own goals and dreams. It wasn't until others like Mao, Tito and Stalin warped it into their own ideals of what Communism should be that it became much worse.

There's nothing wrong with the original ideals behind Communism; it's simply that human nature, be it $$$$$, jealousy, or just plain hate, can never Communism work.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by carisear

i agree wholeheartedly with Yc. i understand exactly what he is saying.

you think canadians aren't being censored? actually that was rhetorical because i KNOW you don't think we are.

communism as an ideal in it's purest form should work well. it's not my ideal form of gov't, but from what i remember of grade 10 social studies in highschool (which was many many many moons ago) it definitely wasn't 'a shit form'

yc, i would just ignore dna82 since you'll just hurt your brain trying to have a discussion with him.

Of course Canadians are being censored when it comes to the media. However, it's just not as blatant or obvious.

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

Yc, please justify how censorship is beneficial with a large population.

I've seen many Pro-china advocates tell me Westerners think China's a shit hole because "well if we have 1.3 billion people, wouldn't there be more 'shit' news coming from China?"

Well if China has 1.3b people, wouldn't their good news be amplified as well?

I'm anti-censorship, but there are simply some things that need to be controlled, unless you want mass panic on your hands. I've seen first hand how our media censors various news stories, or at least twists them into something that sounds better than it truly is.

[124Y]

Originally Posted by +Kardboard+

6/4 was a tragedy, no denying that. Could it have been handled differently? I'd like to think so. Could it have been worse? Most definitely. I'm gonna stop pretending I know what to say, but in the end, just remember what happened that day, know what happened that day and form your own opinion from that.

The sad truth is that even to this day, the majority of the 1.3B people does not know what happened back then. Since the news station is state-owned, they hide or alter the truth from the people watching.

[+Kardboard+]

Originally Posted by 124Y

Yeah...because they put military development before caring for their citizens...

You try feeding a billion hungry mouths.

Someone reminded me about a point in China's past. Remember how it was the king of the hill, pwning everyone else in its technology and culture? Then...somehow collapsed into bickering within itself and then was consequently oppressed by the West? Something like that, to Coles-Notes it. They're a unique culture, forged by circumstance so I don't expect any one of us (other than a select few closely tied to China) to really understand, properly comprehend just what the heehaw they're thinking.

A lot of things we take for granted here are easier said than done over there...

EDIT:

Originally Posted by 124Y

The sad truth is that even to this day, the majority of the 1.3B people does not know what happened back then. Since the news station is state-owned, they hide or alter the truth from the people watching.

I know people who know people there and who themselves are close to what I kinda affectionately call the "Uncleland" now (get it? Uncle...land? Like Motherland, but Chinese? OK I stop. -_-). People know. Word of mouth, passed down by those who were there, others who know. Hmm, they may not think the same way that many of us do, but they know.

[Carl Johnson]

pretty good video on youtube showing how events unfolded which lead to June 4th

[youtube]s9A51jN19zw[/youtube]

[impactX]

Originally Posted by Yc

well China is still developing, so i think for them to get to where Canada is, is going to take another 20 or 30 years..
everyone makes mistakes, including governments...in this case it might went a little overboard, but look what China is now, not one country can ignore China's growth, so..in a way I think they did a good thing but in a bad way..
if the movement was sucessful, and the gov't changed its course..no one will know what China will be, the closest thing we can assume is comparing what other Countries that have done sth similar..say Russia, so in a way..I think the way the government is running is quite alright...

yes there are corruptions, and others, but what other developing country doesnt?...China can still develope quite successfully even with THAT much corruption..I would say the gov't did its job fairly good

Here you go, ignoring my post about Zhao Ziyang, who was in charge of the economy reform and paved the road to China's properous economy today after Deng Xiaoping fucked it up. He's also openly supportive of reforming the political environment and trying to rid of government corruption in China. The corruption was part of why the June 4th movement had taken place.

Your speculation of how China wouldn't be as prosperous today if democracy was allowed is illogical. It's almost as retarded as saying that the massacre was what led to the prosperous China we see today.

Sure, governments make mistake; but they admit it. China wanted Japan to recognize the Nanjing massacre during WW2; yet they won't even admit that June 4th movement took place in which they killed their own people.

[Yc]

well..i said uncertain, meaning we are not sure of..it might be good or bad..so in this case we need to compare countries that are similar to China and has used democracy..


u have to realize that it's not just a day thing, it takes years and years of change

i am not sure if they have admited or not..but giving what technology has to offer, as long as they dont openly deny what they have done, i consider it as a "okay we fucked up and sorry...."..
Its China we are talking about..since when does the King ever apologize to his actions..it's part of cultural. thing...

i dont know if its morally right to say this..sometimes its okay to kill ur own ppl(family)..but not alright to let others(in this case, someone outside of the family) to kill..

[Yc]

Originally Posted by 124Y

Why are you wondering about other people's education level when you cannot use proper grammar?

i admit my grammar isn't great.i am not an english major nor am I a native speaker..but if i can get my points across and you guys understand it..i am happy


just curious where he gets his points from..