Six-Four: 20 Years Today (June 4th Movement, Tiananmen Square)

[+Kardboard+]

Wrong, when they grow up, they want to play by their own rules. They want the world to go by their rules and the mildly alarming thing is, that might just end up being the case.

EDIT: Interpret that as you will.

[hk20000]

Originally Posted by Carl Johnson

That is the very definition of communism you just laid out. I was at China last year and yes China is probably more capitalistic than most western countries. The economic growth there is astonishing with double digit growth for the last decade until recently. However, I very much doubt China will be standing where it is today without the millions and millions of migrant workers that goes into city every year and basically work their lives out and not getting very much in return at all (some were not even paid after they finished the contract).

Oh sure China is the new land of opportunities with tons of money to make. I am not disagreeing you one bit in terms of how business have changed in China. If you have good education and good experience in NA you can probably go back to China and find great position openings.

But ultimately I disagree with a dictatorship government that filters out information and not letting people express freely. I almost puked after flipping through different CCTV channels(party TV station) for 10 minutes with the amount of brainwash and propaganda going on.

Yes I understand that you don't like that style, but like I said, there is very little barrage if you decide to travel to more "free" places around China which is like Taiwan, Japan, HK, etc for like peanuts money. So the brainwashing is difficult, if not arguably useless in this day and age.

It is a bit of a brainwash I agree, but with much of its population moving in and out of the brainwash salon they'll figure it out eventually.

If you were in China recently, the brainwash is a lot less profound. There's no morning singing of "hail Director Mao" or any dictator worshipping, there is no more funny patriotic songs playing on the radio any more. The new leader in China pretty much runs his country how the Conservatives here would run it.... Subtle control is the new name of the game.

But I still abhor the fact how everyone in the democratic society deem that "life in China must be shit" because of separate events like the 6-4.....because it just is not so. If you remember that the true motives of the democratic movement in 1989 it was not so much of "get rid of this communistic government" more like "make this government more responsive to its people, and be open about its policies, then maybe let us vote"......it's a sign that they don't really think everything was shit with how things were run.

It is sad that the army got involved to suppress them, but when your front yard is crowded by a tour of lunatics, you take out your shotgun too.

[+Kardboard+]

Originally Posted by hk20000

It is sad that the army got involved to suppress them, but when your front yard is crowded by a tour of lunatics, you take out your shotgun too.

So we're all rednecks now?

[Lomac]

It's easy to sit behind a computer, or even just sit on the park bench with a friend in a first world country, and criticize other countries that aren't on par -- economically, politically or socially -- with the one you're in. North America and the majority of the Western European countries either began as a democracy (no matter how restricted it was, what with making it illegal for many people to have a vote), or went from a form of monarchy or oligarchy into a democracy. Many of these democratic countries have had decades, if not hundreds of years, to have proper "democratic" political systems put into place. They've had time to get their general population used to the idea, regardless of how many millions or billions of people are in the country.

For a country with over 1.1 billion people, India’s form of democracy seems to work just fine. Yes, they have their own hurdles to overcome but, just like every other country in the world, it’s not unique to them or the country’s political hemisphere. Just like China, despite an economic growth, India suffers from wide famine, poverty and illiteracy. Yet, somehow, they’re managing to hold onto the “democratic dream” However, they’ve had a few decades to try to get it right.

I guess what I’m trying to state here is that no matter how many people there are in the country, nor what it’s like economically or socially, it’s never “too late” to give it a shot. Saying that it wont work simply, well, doesn’t work.

[m4k4v4li]

democracy works well where its relatively easy to find a well paying 40+ hour a week job with minimal education if any at all and not many others to compete with

it works even better when theres money leftover from your paycheck to buy clothes or that new ipod or to throwdown on payments towards leasing a nicer ride or maybe going out for dinner

[Ulic Qel-Droma]

the world isn't fair, boohoo, that's too bad. someone's gotta get the short end of the stick.

[dna82]

[QUOTE=hk20000;6455485]Yes I understand that you don't like that style, but like I said, there is very little barrage if you decide to travel to more "free" places around China which is like Taiwan, Japan, HK, etc for like peanuts money. So the brainwashing is difficult, if not arguably useless in this day and age.
It is a bit of a brainwash I agree, but with much of its population moving in and out of the brainwash salon they'll figure it out eventually.

If you were in China recently, the brainwash is a lot less profound. There's no morning singing of "hail Director Mao" or any dictator worshipping, there is no more funny patriotic songs playing on the radio any more. The new leader in China pretty much runs his country how the Conservatives here would run it.... Subtle control is the new name of the game.

But I still abhor the fact how everyone in the democratic society deem that "life in China must be shit" because of separate events like the 6-4.....because it just is not so. If you remember that the true motives of the democratic movement in 1989 it was not so much of "get rid of this communistic government" more like "make this government more responsive to its people, and be open about its policies, then maybe let us vote"......it's a sign that they don't really think everything was shit with how things were run.

It is sad that the army got involved to suppress them, but when your front yard is crowded by a tour of lunatics, you take out your shotgun too.QUOTE]

on china's population, how many do you think would qualify for a visa to Taiwan, Japan, Canada, or any other developed nation for that matter.

that's lunancy?

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

democracy works well where its relatively easy to find a well paying 40+ hour a week job with minimal education if any at all and not many others to compete with

it works even better when theres money leftover from your paycheck to buy clothes or that new ipod or to throwdown on payments towards leasing a nicer ride or maybe going out for dinner

I don't see why having labor market stability has anything to do with democracy or any sort of political system for that matter.

As a matter of fact, democracy allows people to really get what they need, if they actually need some reform on labor laws to facilitate their life, they would elect proper representatives to go according to their plan. In China, however, the communist party decides what's good for the country. They want to keep their low wage to compete in the manufacturing area, they put a wage ceiling (it's actually a wage floor, but most companies just put it as the standard, hence the floor no longer works as it intended to be)

For politically advanced countries (you can check some northern european countries like Denmark)... they have a system so well developed, that politicians are really like public servant (literally)... they serve their people and if they don't get the job done accordingly, they get swapped out on the next election.

In China, high-ranked public officers are like gods, as long as they have enough power, they can virtually control anything they want, and people are afraid of messing up with them... in contrast, Canada or US politicians, you better watch out yourself or you could very well be on the next front cover on gossip magazines for scandals.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by Yc

sorry i am not sure when u mean..
but sometimes individual powers or right might not help the growth of a country..everyone is selfish in a way.they want the best of themself not for the society..

the goal here are different..
in canada, where it is already developed..we sorta reach the top
in China, it's still developing, it will be faster if one person controls everything and everyone just follow along, of course it's easier say than done, but if by chance the leader is a good one..majority of ppl well be alright...China, there is a huge inequality gap..but if u look at the past..where developed countries like Canada, there were inequality as well....

What I'm saying is you need to have your BS antennas up more and not believe everything you hear from the gov't. They are their own boss. Nobody can force them to be honest. If they screw up, they can just cover it up, easily.

Look at it this way.. remember the polish dude who got tasered to death? What was the RCMP's first reaction? He attacked first, self-defense, blah, blah, blah.. For some reason, they're allowed to investigate themselves. The cops can say whatever they want and no one will ever know about it.

But wait, it got filmed! Then it got on the news. And all hell broke loose. As much as the defensive China losers like to minimize the importance of free media, that's just one reason why free media is such a big deal, as imperfect and biased and filled with money driven lazy ppl as it is.

There's nothing ppl can do about the gov't, so they should just live their lives. That's fine. But that doesn't mean you should eat up their excuses. How much of the power they have now do they honestly need to grow China? How do you know they haven't been low-balling targets and only giving the minimum to the population so that they don't complain? Believe me, if I was them, I'd be doing that and keeping the money in reserve.. why give up power and make it harder on myself? If you say different, then your either really street dumb or a poor politician, haha.

[m4k4v4li]

I agree^

but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published

our new generation is a lot more open minded and accustomed to the idea of democracy, as the values and attitude of the new breed change, so will governing policies and the status quo imo... maybe not at the same rate, but surely they will. keep in mind there is also a lot of internal fighting and politics within the communist party, although it may be easier to cover up... politicians still try to exploit and jump on scandals and corruption. also note china only opened its doors to the world 20 years ago

even democracy in the west has taken centuries to develop and form into what it is today, and historically has had more accomodating socio-economic circumstances that bring about democracy

what the international community needs to do is really try and understand how China operates, assist and guide it, not bash and condemn them on every chance they get

China is essentially still a developing country, and the western world seems to forget that and hold them to the same standards as other g8 countries and expect them to adpot western values overnight

whats scary is that with the enormous growth seen recently, china can flip the bird at the rest of the world and call its own shots, nobody can do anything about it either but bitch and whine

[Meowjin]

Because india is not a democracy

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

I agree^

but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published

our new generation is a lot more open minded and accustomed to the idea of democracy, as the values and attitude of the new breed change, so will governing policies and the status quo imo... maybe not at the same rate, but surely they will. keep in mind there is also a lot of internal fighting and politics within the communist party, although it may be easier to cover up... politicians still try to exploit and jump on scandals and corruption. also note china only opened its doors to the world 20 years ago

even democracy in the west has taken centuries to develop and form into what it is today, and historically has had more accomodating socio-economic circumstances that bring about democracy

what the international community needs to do is really try and understand how China operates, assist and guide it, not bash and condemn them on every chance they get

China is essentially still a developing country, and the western world seems to forget that and hold them to the same standards as other g8 countries and expect them to adpot western values overnight

whats scary is that with the enormous growth seen recently, china can flip the bird at the rest of the world and call its own shots, nobody can do anything about it either but bitch and whine

China is still developing countries and western countries are expecting too much of them in a short period of time is BS. Those students demanded basic human rights such as: freedom of the press, freedom to express, freedom of gathering, and freedom to travel. Things we don't even think about it here.

And guess what I found today whiling looking through the news: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/wo...er=rss&emc=rss

China has not made a single positive step towards in opening themselves up as far as politics & government control goes for last 20 years. In fact they are moving backward.

[m4k4v4li]

India was also colonized by Britain for close to 2 centuries

copy and pasted off a pm from another rs'er

"money talks so whether it be so-called Communism or American Capitalism, such systems are just a means to an end of some sort open to interpretation. I'd say most of the idiots posting have no clue what happened before WW2 with the countries mentioned or what socio-economic impact historic events have played into shaping the world it is today"

I find it strange how the majority posting with opposing views are white or white washed asians that haven't lived and experienced life in China. and no im not talking about vacationing or touring around, im talking about really living day to day life and interacting with locals, from the rural countryside to the glamorous metropolitan areas like shanghai

by your theory, all the asian immigrints that move to Canada for a better life should hate the chinese gov't even more

i love how when anyone defends the chinese gov't they're automatically labelled as being "brain washed" or how they think the chinese gov't is perfect

think about it, its like if fresh off the boat chinese people started running their mouth like they know everything about the canadian gov't and telling canadians what ought to be

lol u must be blind if you think the chinese gov't has backtracked in the last 20 years

[Ludepower]

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

I find it strange how the majority posting with opposing views are white or white washed asians that haven't lived and experienced life in China. and no im not talking about vacationing or touring around, im talking about really living day to day life and interacting with locals, from the rural countryside to the glamorous metropolitan areas like shanghai

My mother has her parents and 6 brothers/sisters she still supports...Do you support any family members back home? Let me gues...your whole family is the lucky few that are rich or you cut ties with them cause you're cheap.

So traitor....did the average worker tell you he enjoys working $5-10 a day in shit conditions? You know about the bribery and corrpution amongst local officails right? Protection tax charged for business by the cops?

Seems to me you're the one that hasn't fully witness what's really going...instead you shit on your own country not demanding basic rights for them.

[impactX]

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

I agree^

but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published

Name one instance where the PEOPLE/GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS responsible for the school buildings destruction (because the buildings don't meet standards) got charged or sentenced after the Sichuan earthquake. Hundreds of innocent children died as a result of this. Even the parents of the dead are trying to make the government take responsibility, but instead of doing that, the government pocketed millions of donations coming from all over the world.

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

our new generation is a lot more open minded and accustomed to the idea of democracy, as the values and attitude of the new breed change, so will governing policies and the status quo imo... maybe not at the same rate, but surely they will. keep in mind there is also a lot of internal fighting and politics within the communist party, although it may be easier to cover up... politicians still try to exploit and jump on scandals and corruption. also note china only opened its doors to the world 20 years ago

Anyone who wants to talk about corruption and politics should first read the book "Prisoner of the State" which is the secret journal of Premier Zhao Ziyang, leader of China at the time who sympathized with the student, got stripped of his power and got sentenced to house-arrest till death.

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

even democracy in the west has taken centuries to develop and form into what it is today, and historically has had more accomodating socio-economic circumstances that bring about democracy

No. When the leader of the country is supporting democratic movement (see Russia), democracy is bound to happen. But some people make unlawful decisions and made what happened happen.

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

what the international community needs to do is really try and understand how China operates, assist and guide it, not bash and condemn them on every chance they get

China is essentially still a developing country, and the western world seems to forget that and hold them to the same standards as other g8 countries and expect them to adpot western values overnight

whats scary is that with the enormous growth seen recently, china can flip the bird at the rest of the world and call its own shots, nobody can do anything about it either but bitch and whine

Stop using "developing country" as an excuse because China has been using that as an excuse for basically everything.

As you said, China's economic importance can influence the whole world; then it's time to act like a world leader and take responsibility of its actions.

[dna82]

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

India was also colonized by Britain for close to 2 centuries

copy and pasted off a pm from another rs'er

"money talks so whether it be so-called Communism or American Capitalism, such systems are just a means to an end of some sort open to interpretation. I'd say most of the idiots posting have no clue what happened before WW2 with the countries mentioned or what socio-economic impact historic events have played into shaping the world it is today"

I find it strange how the majority posting with opposing views are white or white washed asians that haven't lived and experienced life in China. and no im not talking about vacationing or touring around, im talking about really living day to day life and interacting with locals, from the rural countryside to the glamorous metropolitan areas like shanghai

by your theory, all the asian immigrints that move to Canada for a better life should hate the chinese gov't even more

i love how when anyone defends the chinese gov't they're automatically labelled as being "brain washed" or how they think the chinese gov't is perfect

think about it, its like if fresh off the boat chinese people started running their mouth like they know everything about the canadian gov't and telling canadians what ought to be

lol u must be blind if you think the chinese gov't has backtracked in the last 20 years

meet 6chr0nic4, the new ddagauge, SFUdropout, Fetched, now with twice the racism!

[m4k4v4li]

haha sure ill gladly take that tittle

Originally Posted by impactX

As you said, China's economic importance can influence the whole world; then it's time to act like a world leader and take responsibility of its actions.

+1
but approaching it with a confrontational type of attitude the west does is not the way to get China to listen. this is seen with any other developing country the US feels the need to police in hopes they will adopt western values, IE in the middle east, do you actually believe the majority of local afghanis / iraqis respect and see US militants as heros there to liberate them? har har har. if anything there has been an even greater and deeper hatred that has been sparked post 9/11. money talks, when you have money you don't need to own up to your decisions, you can convince your citizens to wage a full out war on "terrorism" for political gains. but hey... we're the goodfellas

i see where all you guys posting are coming from and just because I play devils advocate doesn't mean I disagree

I think you need to be able to analyze something from both angles to truly understand it, I don't see how that equates to being brain washed or ignorant

I believe there will be significant political reform seen within our lifetime that will grant the average citizen more freedom, it seems many of you posting don't believe this evident in posts like how china has backtracked within the last 20 years
but hey... if it happens they have us to thank for liberating them right xD

oh ya im totally racist!! haha just because I wasn't raised to be politically correct in order not to offend strangers on the internet like you white boys have definately means im a racist! behind your mannerism lies the same discriminating, generalizing innate human nature. didn't someone make fob mainlander comments earlier? ZOMG THATS RACIST!! ME SO SHALLY

[goo3]

Originally Posted by 6chr0nic4

I agree^
but it is slowly progressing and improving, especially with all of the outside pressure for democratic reform

although there is censorship on the internet, when corrupted officials get caught doing dirty business, it still gets widely published

Except there's a ceiling on how high it goes.

If I was in gov't with that kinda power, believe me, there would be a floor beneath me too. Keeping those underlings in check is not in my job description. Fuck that shit. In fact, I hope they cheat more ppl. It takes the attention off me. And then I can use the media tell everybody what a jackass that guy was. It's like being a producer of a reality show.

These sort of faux-openness moves still favor me by a wide margin.

[fetched]

LOL.
Skinnypup just thanked someone for calling me racist, rather than give him infraction. I have never referenced race/racial comments in any of my comments but oh wells. Don't really care about that but it's just funny that I got infraction for calling Skinnypup "uneducated"=D
I guess DNA is Skinnypup's little bitch
The way you moderate is starting to look more like the Chinese Government
Love the people that support you, ban the people that tries to overthrow you =D

[fetched]

Fight Club Please.

[SkinnyPupp]

Just a reminder: Not a good idea to cut and paste from locked threads. Locked threads are locked. Leave them that way

[m4k4v4li]

lol wait why did he get banned

[Alphamale]

How about you stop being a fag, you information censoring motherfucker.

If anything RS should end the "ninja edits" from mods.

In regards to the backtracking comments, it's possible to say Canada is headed the same way in regards to it's humble social goals of the Trudeau era.