Six-Four: 20 Years Today (June 4th Movement, Tiananmen Square)

[impactX]

Originally Posted by Yc

well..i said uncertain, meaning we are not sure of..it might be good or bad..so in this case we need to compare countries that are similar to China and has used democracy..


u have to realize that it's not just a day thing, it takes years and years of change

i am not sure if they have admited or not..but giving what technology has to offer, as long as they dont openly deny what they have done, i consider it as a "okay we fucked up and sorry...."..
Its China we are talking about..since when does the King ever apologize to his actions..it's part of cultural. thing...

i dont know if its morally right to say this..sometimes its okay to kill ur own ppl(family)..but not alright to let others(in this case, someone outside of the family) to kill..

See Germany. For everything, there's always a start.

LMAO, I won't respond to you anymore... and I'd hate to be a part of your family. You need medical help.

[bcrdukes]

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

[Hehe]

Seriously, China is one fucked up place. Sure every country has some form of censorship in place to prevent their citizen be discomforted by the information.

Nevertheless, the difference between China to Canada or US (just an example) is China is doing it to prevent any gathering of power. Be it political or social, there should never be a force strong enough to shake the communist party. And for god sake, is that really what's good for the people? millions of people in China still lives in horrible conditions, Chinese government suppress their monetary policy and trading rules to prevent a surge in manufacturing cost in China. They buy tons of USD bonds to control the currency rate.

All these actions are only benefiting very small percentage of individuals in China. Yes, for those fortunate Chinese who benefited from this, they live in Canada, drives a nice car and have a house at west van, but all these come from the suffering of millions more Chinese in China. Communism is like all economic theories (trust me, I did my BA in Econ, I know what I'm talking) they are formed in perfect world. Where there are no variables. In the real life, however, doesn't exactly work as they intend to be... at least not 100% efficient.

[scheng924]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

lol love your take!

[scheng924]

Originally Posted by Hehe

Seriously, China is one fucked up place. Sure every country has some form of censorship in place to prevent their citizen be discomforted by the information.

Nevertheless, the difference between China to Canada or US (just an example) is China is doing it to prevent any gathering of power. Be it political or social, there should never be a force strong enough to shake the communist party. And for god sake, is that really what's good for the people? millions of people in China still lives in horrible conditions, Chinese government suppress their monetary policy and trading rules to prevent a surge in manufacturing cost in China. They buy tons of USD bonds to control the currency rate.

All these actions are only benefiting very small percentage of individuals in China. Yes, for those fortunate Chinese who benefited from this, they live in Canada, drives a nice car and have a house at west van, but all these come from the suffering of millions more Chinese in China. Communism is like all economic theories (trust me, I did my BA in Econ, I know what I'm talking) they are formed in perfect world. Where there are no variables. In the real life, however, doesn't exactly work as they intend to be... at least not 100% efficient.

good, so now we have defined why communism in REALITY doesn't work but works in theory...

[Nightwalker]

I can't even believe people are trying to compare censorship in Canada to China. When's the last time someone disappeared or caught a beatdown for criticizing the government here?

In a democratic society the governments role is to serve the people. It is not the role of the people to serve the government.

[Hehe]

Originally Posted by scheng924

good, so now we have defined why communism in REALITY doesn't work but works in theory...

It's not why it doesn't work, it's why it shouldn't be considered it could work.

Pure communism is based on that everyone do what they have to do or what they are good doing and contribute to the pool of total. Then the pool gets divided into equal portions and each person gets his/her share of it.

Ideally, this is the perfect world, you contribute to everyone and everyone contribute to you. Nevertheless, the very important thing is that variables exist in real world. Be it $$$$$ (lol, didn't know gree d censors into $$$$$), jealousy, love, hate... etc, these are variables beyond control. And when such emotional variables interfere with people with power, the perfect world ceases to exist. Hence the idea of communism no longer works.

For those who spent their childhood in China (elementary and/or highschool) I'm sure the lesson mentioned above (you contribute to the good of the mass) is part of your lectures. In reality, that theory is BS. What you have is responsibilities. Taking responsibilities is what should have been taught and not some all for one, one for all BS.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by Yc

well..i said uncertain, meaning we are not sure of..it might be good or bad..so in this case we need to compare countries that are similar to China and has used democracy..


u have to realize that it's not just a day thing, it takes years and years of change

i am not sure if they have admited or not..but giving what technology has to offer, as long as they dont openly deny what they have done, i consider it as a "okay we fucked up and sorry...."..

Isn't all that exactly what the gov't wants you to think? Like word for word? Those points conveniently benefit them, strangely.

They got a monopoly on power. They control the tanks AND the information stream. Of course things not in their direct interest will take years and years. What is exactly there to keep them honest? All they have to do is set expectations lower than where it could be (as long as it's above zero), "overdeliver," and they give off the impression that they're doing a great job. Everybody's happy - none the wiser. It's not like somebody can go double check what they tell you.

This has nothing to do with political systems, big populations, or cultural values. Those are excuses. It's about human nature when you are your own boss and you cntrl where the money and guns go. Holding on to that power trumps everything else. Throwing meat over the side to the population is just a means to an end.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

But when 5pm rolls around, things change. And your boss doesn't control the military or police, just the security dude @ the gate

[wouwou]

Yc, as much as I love China, I think you are confusing China, the country, and the Party.

My friend wrote "Sons of Liberty" on his signiture on a knockoff Facebook, and his profile was deleted 2 minutes after updating that.

P.S, Sons of Liberty is the title for the 2nd Metal Gear Solid game. The censorship is unbelieveable and so fucked up and people are outraged

[Mancini]

Deleted

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

there are certain rules and guidelines we have to follow at work or as a society in general which make all of us more efficient & productive. that is not the same thing as government censorship which makes us ignorant and foolish.

[dark0821]

haha.. YAY.. china staying strong.. in a good way kinda.. haha

[impactX]

Originally Posted by dark0821

haha.. YAY.. china staying strong.. in a good way kinda.. haha

WTF?

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by goo3

But when 5pm rolls around, things change. And your boss doesn't control the military or police, just the security dude @ the gate

How about we think of IT as the police and management as the military/govt. You obviously aren't going to oppose them, are you? If you did, you'd be out of a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you but after 5pm, okay, sure, but when Monday morning rolls around at 8:30am, you're back in the same shit hole you were in last Friday.

In the end, Communism or Capitalism is just a systematic means to an end. Do you remember as a child protesting against your parents demand that you eat your veggies? Yeah? And if you opposed them, did they give you a beating? Do you still oppose or beat your parents? No, because I'm sure they'd want you out of the house right away.

[dna82]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

How about we think of IT as the police and management as the military/govt. You obviously aren't going to oppose them, are you? If you did, you'd be out of a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you but after 5pm, okay, sure, but when Monday morning rolls around at 8:30am, you're back in the same shit hole you were in last Friday.

In the end, Communism or Capitalism is just a systematic means to an end. Do you remember as a child protesting against your parents demand that you eat your veggies? Yeah? And if you opposed them, did they give you a beating? Do you still oppose or beat your parents? No, because I'm sure they'd want you out of the house right away.

then quit the job and find a better one, that's the freedom given to you. nobody can force you to work.

the same can't be said about governments...

[RFlush]

Originally Posted by Hehe

Seriously, China is one fucked up place. Sure every country has some form of censorship in place to prevent their citizen be discomforted by the information.

Nevertheless, the difference between China to Canada or US (just an example) is China is doing it to prevent any gathering of power. Be it political or social, there should never be a force strong enough to shake the communist party. And for god sake, is that really what's good for the people? millions of people in China still lives in horrible conditions, Chinese government suppress their monetary policy and trading rules to prevent a surge in manufacturing cost in China. They buy tons of USD bonds to control the currency rate.

All these actions are only benefiting very small percentage of individuals in China. Yes, for those fortunate Chinese who benefited from this, they live in Canada, drives a nice car and have a house at west van, but all these come from the suffering of millions more Chinese in China. Communism is like all economic theories (trust me, I did my BA in Econ, I know what I'm talking) they are formed in perfect world. Where there are no variables. In the real life, however, doesn't exactly work as they intend to be... at least not 100% efficient.

I am not picking a side, but where did you do your BA in Econ from? Have you not taken any economic development courses or any marxist theory courses? It sure sounds like it.

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by dna82

then quit the job and find a better one, that's the freedom given to you. nobody can force you to work.

Uhh...okay? Right. Just up and leave. Good one. You have failed to comprehend my parallelism.

[hk20000]

Communism what? Try to do anything, anything at all, in China without a stash of RMB.

You foolish people don't understand how it is like in China at all. I just flew back from Beijing and I saw how extreme contrast between those who "do have" and those who "don't have". Seriously, You think capitalism works well? A fully capitalistic society is what you get in the capital city.

Other than the fact that there is no voting and no representation of the people in the government, there is nothing communism about how China runs things now.

Like seriously, go there and come back and talk. Geez.

There is no voting for the people in China and no representation of its people in the government but the government sends agencies and parties down to the cities and provinces to manage things. When there are 13 billion people (and don't give me that hungry mouths bullshit they are ballin' out of control) that you need to manage, you better make sure they all believe in ONE thing and one government management. It makes a lot of sense to them because in the old days, when the government was actually split by more than one party (there are different "kings" during the Ming Dynasty era where provinces and lands get full control of themselves, only reporting to the "King" when summoned), hidden agendas caused civil wars eventually lead to the demise of the dynasty.

In review to THAT, some wisdom from back when America and Canada were still occupied by Indians, they decided that this current system is most fit for the nature of the Chinese people. In details it makes a lot of freaking sense, the government does not intervene as long as you believe in "one party and two principles". What you do with your talent and money is none of their concern. You do own your properties, and you do own your own business. Sure there are national ran business that get extra benefit and "pass cards" when it comes to contracting but soon we'll see the same with Obama's auto industry so in essense every government is moving to the same direction.

as for 6-4 thing, name me one government that hasn't killed people, and I'll say how foolish you are. Denying that they have done it is not an internationally accepted thing, but using that to bring out how China is a shit country is a western propaganda and tunnel vision that CNN wants to sell you.

I was AT Tiananmen Square on 6-4, and most people were not too keen or interested in this thing, it's only the Western society that wants to defame China for this. For the locals, there are so many instances where the government had lethally suppressed movements before n after 1989 (at least that's what the victims have been claiming) this event has no particular significance to them. To them, life just goes on.

There is media censorship in China but this whole "believe in one party" thing will not hold up if media is opened up. Either way this censorship doesn't really work that well as travelling is free-for-all in China (if other countries don't ask for damned visas when entering THEIR country with a China passport, which is a shame) you cannot bar what people will see and hear when they are abroad.

[bengy]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Did any of you ever think that at work, why you're not allowed to visit the NWS forum? Or post comments about how you hate George in accounting? Or how big of a slut Jane is on the 14th floor? Or that you couldn't surf the Web on work time? Did you ever think for a second that maybe, just maybe, that in itself is censorship?

Wow, this is so bad it's not even funny.

You are allowed to do whatever the fuck you want at work. The only thing is, depending on what you do, there will be repercussions.

You are there getting paid to perform a certain job you applied for and have a written contract for. You also agreed to certain policies of how to behave and how to look at the office when you took the job.

When you are at work, you are working most likely for a private company. They don't regulate how you live your life. Also, I'm pretty sure you can criticize anyone in your office as long as you are civil about it and have valid points.

[+Kardboard+]

Originally Posted by bengy

Wow, this is so bad it's not even funny.

You are allowed to do whatever the fuck you want at work. The only thing is, depending on what you do, there will be repercussions.

You are there getting paid to perform a certain job you applied for and have a written contract for. You also agreed to certain policies of how to behave and how to look at the office when you took the job.

When you are at work, you are working most likely for a private company. They don't regulate how you live your life. Also, I'm pretty sure you can criticize anyone in your office as long as you are civil about it and have valid points.

And you're not getting where he's coming from. Devil's advocate, parallelism, yeah?

The Chinese in China can do whatever the fuck they want. The only thing is, depending on what they do, there will be repercussions.

You read between the lines.

Mind you, China isn't some crazy state under martial law where nothing's allowed. It's not perfect there, nowhere in the world is perfect, but we can still hold our opinions, like you say, as long as it's civil and we have valid points.

[bengy]

Yeah, I guess living in China is a full time job. Everyone working for that one goal right? Poor sobs.

[Yc]

Originally Posted by impactX

See Germany. For everything, there's always a start.

LMAO, I won't respond to you anymore... and I'd hate to be a part of your family. You need medical help.

it's okay...i dont want to be wrongfully accused by someone i have never met

[Yc]

Originally Posted by goo3

Isn't all that exactly what the gov't wants you to think? Like word for word? Those points conveniently benefit them, strangely.

They got a monopoly on power. They control the tanks AND the information stream. Of course things not in their direct interest will take years and years. What is exactly there to keep them honest? All they have to do is set expectations lower than where it could be (as long as it's above zero), "overdeliver," and they give off the impression that they're doing a great job. Everybody's happy - none the wiser. It's not like somebody can go double check what they tell you.

This has nothing to do with political systems, big populations, or cultural values. Those are excuses. It's about human nature when you are your own boss and you cntrl where the money and guns go. Holding on to that power trumps everything else. Throwing meat over the side to the population is just a means to an end.

sorry i am not sure when u mean..
but sometimes individual powers or right might not help the growth of a country..everyone is selfish in a way.they want the best of themself not for the society..

the goal here are different..
in canada, where it is already developed..we sorta reach the top
in China, it's still developing, it will be faster if one person controls everything and everyone just follow along, of course it's easier say than done, but if by chance the leader is a good one..majority of ppl well be alright...China, there is a huge inequality gap..but if u look at the past..where developed countries like Canada, there were inequality as well....

[Yc]

Originally Posted by wouwou

Yc, as much as I love China, I think you are confusing China, the country, and the Party.

My friend wrote "Sons of Liberty" on his signiture on a knockoff Facebook, and his profile was deleted 2 minutes after updating that.

P.S, Sons of Liberty is the title for the 2nd Metal Gear Solid game. The censorship is unbelieveable and so fucked up and people are outraged

lol..u mean xiaonei?? haha i use it too


maybe i guess..i will just read more on that..