Six-Four: 20 Years Today (June 4th Movement, Tiananmen Square)

[Yc]

Originally Posted by bengy

Yeah, I guess living in China is a full time job. Everyone working for that one goal right? Poor sobs.

have u been to China?

[dna82]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Uhh...okay? Right. Just up and leave. Good one. You have failed to comprehend my parallelism.

your parallelism is flawed.

work is a choice, you exchange your time for money. spending company time doing personal shit is theft. management of course, allows for some discretion.

just because your company says you can't access certain information while on company time is in no way similiar to censorship. read above.

p.s yes it's that simple, you can walk away from any job. if you're not happy, you should try it.

[dna82]

Originally Posted by Yc

sorry i am not sure when u mean..
but sometimes individual powers or right might not help the growth of a country..everyone is selfish in a way.they want the best of themself not for the society..
the goal here are different..
in canada, where it is already developed..we sorta reach the top
in China, it's still developing, it will be faster if one person controls everything and everyone just follow along, of course it's easier say than done, but if by chance the leader is a good one..majority of ppl well be alright...China, there is a huge inequality gap..but if u look at the past..where developed countries like Canada, there were inequality as well....

oh, and now he finally gets it! that's the beauty of capitalism. It takes into account people are selfish. It creates a system where the selfish can realize their dreams AND help realize the dreams of those around them.

p.s same arguements again and again, 'china's growing, we need strong leadership'. 'omg, we're too big for a democracy'. 'omg, give it some time it'll happen soon'. so...how long are people supposed to wait....

[Blinky]

Originally Posted by +Kardboard+

And you're not getting where he's coming from. Devil's advocate, parallelism, yeah?

I know you're not replying to me, but the analogy fails.

You don't need to work for anybody (start your own business or live off the land... I'll leave alone social services for the time being ). Be your own boss and you can do and say whatever the hell you want. Hell, I could start a newspaper (a business!) saying how much monkey nut Stephen Harper sucks.

Working for somebody else is a choice. When that choice is made, one's behaviour is governed by what is best for that organization. If I choose to work for myself (or not even work), I can set my own rules, within the rules of a civil society... or I can look for an organization that tolerates or allows my viewpoints.

The Chinese in China can do whatever the fuck they want. The only thing is, depending on what they do, there will be repercussions.

They are persecuted for doing "whatever the fuck they want". This is wrong.

Mind you, China isn't some crazy state under martial law where nothing's allowed. It's not perfect there, nowhere in the world is perfect, but we can still hold our opinions, like you say, as long as it's civil and we have valid points.

Why can I not publish my own newspaper that criticizes the government? Why could I not light a candle in Tiananmen on 6/4?

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by dna82

work is a choice, you exchange your time for money. spending company time doing personal shit is theft. management of course, allows for some discretion.

Work is a choice. Okay. Fine. But what if one chose not to work? They won't have money for basic necessities (food/clothing/shelter.) Hey, living on the streets is a choice, too, right? If I recall correctly, for you to receive social assistance from the gov't, you need an address. Oh wait. You'd have to have a job to start in order to pay rent. Duh!

Originally Posted by dna82

just because your company says you can't access certain information while on company time is in no way similiar to censorship. read above.

But fundamentally, it's still censorship, no? So what if I wanted to post my hatred towards Asians, Blacks, and Jews on my White Supremacist forum? Is that not censorship? What the hell happened to freedom of speech? I'd say, the company I work for, or heck, any company for that matter, is censoring my right to express my beliefs. Oh noes!

And going back to my original point, you need to work in order to survive or you can be one of many crack addicts along Main and Hastings. But hey, that's freedom of choice. Hurray!

Originally Posted by dna82

p.s yes it's that simple, you can walk away from any job. if you're not happy, you should try it.

No, I'm quite happy with my job. There are pros and cons to what I do but by no means will I make that decision to live on the streets, thank you very much. And it's not about being happy or not. It's whether you want to play the game or not. So rather than suggest I try leaving my job, perhaps you should heed our own advice before suggesting others to do so.

[Carl Johnson]

Originally Posted by hk20000

Communism what? Try to do anything, anything at all, in China without a stash of RMB.

You foolish people don't understand how it is like in China at all. I just flew back from Beijing and I saw how extreme contrast between those who "do have" and those who "don't have". Seriously, You think capitalism works well? A fully capitalistic society is what you get in the capital city.

Other than the fact that there is no voting and no representation of the people in the government, there is nothing communism about how China runs things now.

Like seriously, go there and come back and talk. Geez.

There is no voting for the people in China and no representation of its people in the government but the government sends agencies and parties down to the cities and provinces to manage things. When there are 13 billion people (and don't give me that hungry mouths bullshit they are ballin' out of control) that you need to manage, you better make sure they all believe in ONE thing and one government management. It makes a lot of sense to them because in the old days, when the government was actually split by more than one party (there are different "kings" during the Ming Dynasty era where provinces and lands get full control of themselves, only reporting to the "King" when summoned), hidden agendas caused civil wars eventually lead to the demise of the dynasty.

In review to THAT, some wisdom from back when America and Canada were still occupied by Indians, they decided that this current system is most fit for the nature of the Chinese people. In details it makes a lot of freaking sense, the government does not intervene as long as you believe in "one party and two principles". What you do with your talent and money is none of their concern. You do own your properties, and you do own your own business. Sure there are national ran business that get extra benefit and "pass cards" when it comes to contracting but soon we'll see the same with Obama's auto industry so in essense every government is moving to the same direction.

as for 6-4 thing, name me one government that hasn't killed people, and I'll say how foolish you are. Denying that they have done it is not an internationally accepted thing, but using that to bring out how China is a shit country is a western propaganda and tunnel vision that CNN wants to sell you.

I was AT Tiananmen Square on 6-4, and most people were not too keen or interested in this thing, it's only the Western society that wants to defame China for this. For the locals, there are so many instances where the government had lethally suppressed movements before n after 1989 (at least that's what the victims have been claiming) this event has no particular significance to them. To them, life just goes on.

There is media censorship in China but this whole "believe in one party" thing will not hold up if media is opened up. Either way this censorship doesn't really work that well as travelling is free-for-all in China (if other countries don't ask for damned visas when entering THEIR country with a China passport, which is a shame) you cannot bar what people will see and hear when they are abroad.

That is the very definition of communism you just laid out. I was at China last year and yes China is probably more capitalistic than most western countries. The economic growth there is astonishing with double digit growth for the last decade until recently. However, I very much doubt China will be standing where it is today without the millions and millions of migrant workers that goes into city every year and basically work their lives out and not getting very much in return at all (some were not even paid after they finished the contract).

Oh sure China is the new land of opportunities with tons of money to make. I am not disagreeing you one bit in terms of how business have changed in China. If you have good education and good experience in NA you can probably go back to China and find great position openings.

But ultimately I disagree with a dictatorship government that filters out information and not letting people express freely. I almost puked after flipping through different CCTV channels(party TV station) for 10 minutes with the amount of brainwash and propaganda going on.

[bcrdukes]

Originally Posted by Blinky

I know you're not replying to me, but the analogy fails.

You don't need to work for anybody (start your own business or live off the land... I'll leave alone social services for the time being ). Be your own boss and you can do and say whatever the hell you want. Hell, I could start a newspaper (a business!) saying how much monkey nut Stephen Harper sucks.

No. You can't do whatever you want nor say whatever the hell you want to say. Ultimately, you will fail.

Originally Posted by Blinky

They are persecuted for doing "whatever the fuck they want". This is wrong.

Whose to say what's right and what's wrong?

Originally Posted by Blinky

Why can I not publish my own newspaper that criticizes the government? Why could I not light a candle in Tiananmen on 6/4?

Yes, you can. You have a choice. It's just that there will be repercussions to your actions. I can take a can of paint and spray the VAG with something like "Fuck you!" and if I get caught and go to jail, no? Is that not the same in China? People there are making and selling counterfeit CDs and I'm sure thousands of people get away with it.

[RFlush]

Why is there a debate about communist economic systems vs capitalist economic systems? I don't think that is what the issue is, it is about the government. The economic system, in my opinion, has a less impact on what the issue was about during June 4th. Wasn't it more for more democratic reforms? Against a single one party ruler?

I mean even in capitalist countries there are/were dictatorships. Capitalism or communism does not play a big role. This can be seen as how China's communism is not true Marxist communism and America's capitalism is not true Smith's capitalism. So why talk about it?

Anyhow, carry on.

[bcrdukes]

^
Fuck you for ruining my fun.

Anywhoo...I'm done replying to this thread. Thank you Blinky and dna82. You got my brains crunching again but I just want to say you are blinded by capitalism and are both ideal candidates of being a superstar model for capitalism. You both should have your own capitalism posters along Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles.

Good night.

[dna82]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

Work is a choice. Okay. Fine. But what if one chose not to work? They won't have money for basic necessities (food/clothing/shelter.) Hey, living on the streets is a choice, too, right? If I recall correctly, for you to receive social assistance from the gov't, you need an address. Oh wait. You'd have to have a job to start in order to pay rent. Duh!



But fundamentally, it's still censorship, no? So what if I wanted to post my hatred towards Asians, Blacks, and Jews on my White Supremacist forum? Is that not censorship? What the hell happened to freedom of speech? I'd say, the company I work for, or heck, any company for that matter, is censoring my right to express my beliefs.

And going back to my original point, you need to work in order to survive or you can be one of many crack addicts along Main and Hastings. But hey, that's freedom of choice. Hurray!



No, I'm quite happy with my job. There are pros and cons to what I do but by no means will I make that decision to live on the streets, thank you very much. And it's not about being happy or not. It's whether you want to play the game or not. So rather than suggest I try leaving my job, perhaps you should heed our own advice before suggesting others to do so.

first point. it is your choice to work. if you hold your personal time so valuable that you'd rather live on social assistance then find a basic job, then you're fucked. but nobody can force you to work but yourself. you can always find a job that can balance both your personal life and work life.

2nd point, again. nobody is saying you can't access those sites. if the government comes in and says nobody can visit this website on work time or personal time then that's censorship. but when you take up a job, you sacrifice your personal time for the organization. doing your personal work on company time when you could just as easily do it from home is redundant. Also using company equipment for personal benefit is... meh. the company creates policies on how to use their equipment and what is considered proper use. you cannot use other peoples equipment as if it were your own.

if you want to watch porn while at work, i suggest you find a career that matches you, instead of screaming bloody censorship.

work is not a requirement, the government has no laws governing that all individuals MUST work. but if you want to have a happy life, then i suggest you find work that suits your needs.

p.s screaming 'fire' in a crowded movie theater is not considered an expression of free speech. Not being able to use the internet is not considered censorship.

[RFlush]

The best form of censorship is when people don't know that they are being censored. Seems like it is working

[+Kardboard+]

If only more people knew the differences between those political differences RFlush listed earlier. I tell people I'm a Conservative and they freak out, then I explain that I'm a Classical Conservative, and they just don't get it.

Same deal here.

The media, our educational system, what have you, have given us a certain presentation of how China is, how its government is, how its people are. Going through this thread and talking to friends about this just makes it all the more apparent that half of us don't know what the heck we're talking about. We think we do, but we don't. Not completely, anyway. It really shouldn't be that easy to form a rock-solid opinion on something without testing it, challenging it first.

Hmm, I'll just watch this for a while.

[Blinky]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

No. You can't do whatever you want nor say whatever the hell you want to say. Ultimately, you will fail.

But the reasons for failure will be different. I will fail if I'm an idiotic publishing bastard because my product sucks (it fails because it does meet a societal norm). Note I said societal norm -- societal norms are not something regulated by the government. I am free to do it, and society decides that it "doesn't work". Not government.

Let's take another example - I can publish midget porn. I could probably make money doing it. It fails most societal norms but it fits Lomac's (and others of his ilk), but in no way does the government disallow me from publishing consensual adult midget porn.

Whose to say what's right and what's wrong?

A very philosophical question. But let's step back. Who is to say what's right and wrong? Let's start with the United Nations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...f_Human_Rights

Yes, you can. You have a choice. It's just that there will be repercussions to your actions. I can take a can of paint and spray the VAG with something like "Fuck you!" and if I get caught and go to jail, no? Is that not the same in China? People there are making and selling counterfeit CDs and I'm sure thousands of people get away with it.

Getting fined for spraypainting public property and getting persecuted for political dissent are on entirely different planets.

Which one are you on?

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

W If I recall correctly, for you to receive social assistance from the gov't, you need an address. Oh wait. You'd have to have a job to start in order to pay rent. Duh!

You can stay at a shelter for free and use that as a address. I am an apartment manager and have had people do that.

[Culture_Vulture]

Originally Posted by 124Y

Yeah...because they put military development before caring for their citizens...

The United States does that too. Except they're better at hiding it.

Regardless though, the keypoint of my post was the last sentence.

[LengJai]

Originally Posted by dna82

your parallelism is flawed.

work is a choice, you exchange your time for money. spending company time doing personal shit is theft. management of course, allows for some discretion.

just because your company says you can't access certain information while on company time is in no way similiar to censorship. read above.

p.s yes it's that simple, you can walk away from any job. if you're not happy, you should try it.

because a company says you can't, means you can't. i work at a place (can't say ironically), that intentionally blocks certain sites, (emails, videostream, etc) and they track what you surf, how long etc etc. remind you of this whole discussion? even if i wanted to fucking try, i can't, and believe, me, i've tried. some have surfed other sites, got tracked, got in trouble.

to whoever else posted "out of work, u do whatever". sorry, not at my job. i remember a thread here, saying "interesting shit at work no one knows" or something. i wanted to, but i'd get in shit. i can't talk about what i do, where or when i work. remind you of anything in this thread?

man, i can't even talk a few words in my own language without getting heat. i can't wear certain shirts that are not even in the least bit offensive (and i'm sure alot of jobs require this) even though I don't see clients or customers.

bcrdukes' parallel is a good one, simple and to the point. think of the workplace as the country, not a job. you don't like.... well, you can't up and leave and find another right away. i've been trying.
people in china can't just say, "fuck it, let's go to canada". if they could, they would in a heartbeat.
as easy-e once said, "eazy-r said than dun"

[m4k4v4li]

...

[RFlush]

The problem with people trying to justify some political or economic goals of China, is that it is often those who speak so blindly and stupid are the ones who get recognized. RS has had many posts about China from the last 2 years, often people just start calling each other names and then the thread starts to turn into shit.

Personally, I try to stay away from the China threads as the debates go no where. In my opinion, people who want to argue so much about the rights and wrongs of China and America should first read some books about the history of each country, the economic systems, the political systems and most important should visit each country. Try opening your eyes to BOTH sides, and not just one side. Travel to each country, and experience it yourself instead of what you see and hear from the media; don't be so biased.

As an economics major and someone who has lived in Canada my whole life, I have recently been to China a few times and have seen how parts of China is like. I cannot say I have been to all parts, most importantly I have not been to the rural parts of China, but I have also not been in rural parts of Canada and have not seen the harshness that this country and government has caused. I understand many of the development theories and that many countries are still behind. China itself is not a developed country, so comparing them to us is on an uneven level. One of the first things we learn in economics is that often western society imposes their ideals and morals onto other countries. Whether this is good or bad, that is for you to decide.

I just urge that people actually understand all the factors before talking about what is "right" and what is "wrong" and try to keep an open mind that both sides have valid points.

[dna82]

Originally Posted by LengJai

because a company says you can't, means you can't. i work at a place (can't say ironically), that intentionally blocks certain sites, (emails, videostream, etc) and they track what you surf, how long etc etc. remind you of this whole discussion? even if i wanted to fucking try, i can't, and believe, me, i've tried. some have surfed other sites, got tracked, got in trouble.

to whoever else posted "out of work, u do whatever". sorry, not at my job. i remember a thread here, saying "interesting shit at work no one knows" or something. i wanted to, but i'd get in shit. i can't talk about what i do, where or when i work. remind you of anything in this thread?

man, i can't even talk a few words in my own language without getting heat. i can't wear certain shirts that are not even in the least bit offensive (and i'm sure alot of jobs require this) even though I don't see clients or customers.

bcrdukes' parallel is a good one, simple and to the point. think of the workplace as the country, not a job. you don't like.... well, you can't up and leave and find another right away. i've been trying.
people in china can't just say, "fuck it, let's go to canada". if they could, they would in a heartbeat.
as easy-e once said, "eazy-r said than dun"

use your own computer on your own time and you wouldn't have this problem.
using company time on company computers is not. that is not censorship.

[RFlush]

Originally Posted by dna82

use your own computer on your own time and you wouldn't have this problem.
using company time on company computers is not. that is not censorship.

How about censorship that happens that you might not even know? Such as in the media?

[SkinnyPupp]

I can't believe people are comparing the rape of an entire culture, to looking at NSFW threads at work. Wow.

[fetched]

Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp

I can't believe people are comparing the rape of an entire culture, to looking at NSFW threads at work. Wow.

I know eh?
Canada and United States harsh raped the Natives
Please stay on the current topic (Year 1989)
And speaking of history, China is one of the good guys.

[goo3]

Originally Posted by bcrdukes

How about we think of IT as the police and management as the military/govt. You obviously aren't going to oppose them, are you? If you did, you'd be out of a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you but after 5pm, okay, sure, but when Monday morning rolls around at 8:30am, you're back in the same shit hole you were in last Friday.

In the end, Communism or Capitalism is just a systematic means to an end. Do you remember as a child protesting against your parents demand that you eat your veggies? Yeah? And if you opposed them, did they give you a beating? Do you still oppose or beat your parents? No, because I'm sure they'd want you out of the house right away.

Not exactly sure I follow you. We've got roles to fill / rules to follow when we're part of an organization, a sports team, even as drivers on the road, etc. if we want to do well and succeed. Just the way it is.. seems that's what ur saying..

I don't see how this type of "can't do whatever the fuck" compares in magnitude to the one where you have a 2nd boss when you get off work. Maybe you have a lenient one now, what if you get a Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmedinojad? Then what? Take it up the ass before, during, and after work cuz you have no cards to play.

[SkinnyPupp]

Originally Posted by fetched

I know eh?
Canada and United States harsh raped the Natives
Please stay on the current topic (Year 1989)
And speaking of history, China is one of the good guys.

The current topic is how the Communists essentially raped the nation of all its culture and identity. Do you really think it's as simple as "not being able to vote"? Do you think that guy stood in front of the tank because he wanted to view Wikipedia? Look at mainland people (generally). It goes far beyond just that. They have no more class, no more culture, because everything has been bleached away (nothing against Mainland people, they simply don't know any better. That's why I don't bother arguing with them any more). Instead of amazing historical monuments and fascinating places of history, they have posters and statues of Chairman Mao, other "feats" that the PRC built, and the stupid fucking bird's nest stadium.

All that's left are brainwashed people who don't know any better, and all they give a shit about any more is the latest LV bag and shiny BMW. They have been fooled into thinking economy is everything, and the nation has basically turned into a bunch of classless brainwashed money grubbing drones.

China has an amazing history. I love China. Anything before 1949 or so is amazing to learn about and discover. The country itself has some amazing things to see, and people to meet, as long as you stay far away from the shithole phony cities.

[Nightwalker]

The parallel is FUCKING BULLSHIT because that's NOT the government, and there are labor laws here to PROTECT employees. You're free to pursue any career, and every one is run differently.

Guess what you need to deal with in either country, with or without a job? The government! Is life here (if you have a shitty job with a lot of corporate pressure) like government censorship? NO! They are only interested in the time that they are PAYING you for.