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Old 03-26-2010, 04:40 PM   #26
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That was skidmark's point: we don't know that he didn't. We don't know what led up to this. There could half an hour of police trying steadily to subdue the guy calmly. Or maybe a dozen cops just came out of nowhere and gang-raped the guy for no reason whatsoever. You don't know either way, so don't make assumptions just because you have an anti-police bias.
I'm not anti-police and I don't care what happened before. All I need to see is what happened in that video.

The guy complied immediately with orders to get on the ground and before he could comply with any other orders, he was charged at by a police officer. He was then in a position that had both of his arms well exposed for the officers to grab. Instead of grabbing his arm, the officer kicked the suspect.

He may have been violent before, but in the video he was in a position which gave the officers very easy control over him.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:22 PM   #27
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the officers beating on that guy, is no better than any of those goons assaulting the other guy who was left on the ground. being an officer shouldn't give you the right to beat on anyone. granted we don't know the circumstances from that video, but from the province article i can tell that was an uncalled for beat down. officer was power tripping
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Old 03-26-2010, 06:52 PM   #28
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What makes the kick to the ribs justified when the crawler's arms were wide open to grab?
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:55 PM   #29
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Love how the OP asked for officer's opinions and failed everyone who presents a different opinion than him.

The whole thing wouldn't have happened if all these so-called "victims" lie flat on their bellies with their hands in the back ready to be cuffed. Failed to comply, the cops are entitled to use "as much force as necessary" to generate compliance. We can sit here and debate all day about what's the appropriate amount/level of force, but at the end of the day, it's what the respective offiers think "necessary" according to the Canadian Use of Force Model at the time of the incident that matters, subject to review/investigation under the Police Act (not including the RCMP)/Criminal Code after the fact.

Keep this in mind: use of force is never pretty even if it's done correctly in accordance with the Canadian Use of Force Model.
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Old 03-26-2010, 08:42 PM   #30
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:58 PM   #31
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Love how the OP asked for officer's opinions and failed everyone who presents a different opinion than him.

The whole thing wouldn't have happened if all these so-called "victims" lie flat on their bellies with their hands in the back ready to be cuffed. Failed to comply, the cops are entitled to use "as much force as necessary" to generate compliance. We can sit here and debate all day about what's the appropriate amount/level of force, but at the end of the day, it's what the respective offiers think "necessary" according to the Canadian Use of Force Model at the time of the incident that matters, subject to review/investigation under the Police Act (not including the RCMP)/Criminal Code after the fact.

Keep this in mind: use of force is never pretty even if it's done correctly in accordance with the Canadian Use of Force Model.
In this case the second suspect thought the officer was there to help him, not arrest him. The officer simply directed him to the ground, did not say anything about how he needed to lie on the ground. He was mostly in a submissive position when the officer decided he looked more like a soccer ball than a human being. Let's not forget that the officer in the black uniform pulled the suspects hand away from behind his back so officer yellowjacket could get another knee-to-the-spine hit in.

The first suspect was already under the control of two officers before officer yellowjacket walked up and kicked him twice.
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:04 PM   #32
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And one more question - if the two "suspects" were resisting arrest so badly to the point the police had to kick and beat them, why haven't they been charged with resisting arrest? Why is officer yellowjacket on desk duty while under criminal investigation by the Vancouver Police?
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Old 03-27-2010, 12:23 AM   #33
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Any officer involved in a situation where they are being investigated will usually end up on desk duty. If it was a more serious offence like the officers who were caught drinking and driving, then they would probably be suspended with pay until they are officially charge.
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:37 AM   #34
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Under the Criminal Code, there has to be an assault on the Police Officer in order to charge for "resisting arrest". (Section 270(1)(b) http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-46/page-6.html)

You can still resist without assaulting a Police Officer.
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Old 03-27-2010, 09:33 AM   #35
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In this case the second suspect thought the officer was there to help him, not arrest him. The officer simply directed him to the ground, did not say anything about how he needed to lie on the ground. He was mostly in a submissive position when the officer decided he looked more like a soccer ball than a human being. Let's not forget that the officer in the black uniform pulled the suspects hand away from behind his back so officer yellowjacket could get another knee-to-the-spine hit in.

The first suspect was already under the control of two officers before officer yellowjacket walked up and kicked him twice.
And you know all this because you were there?
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Old 03-27-2010, 09:45 AM   #36
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I failed them because they straight out say that its hard to say if the use of force was valid without context and knowing what led up to it. They then go on to say they think it was justified or that it was cut to put police in a bad light, without knowing what happened.

Then this guy comes out claiming to be the victim, and they think it's bull. IMO they come across as extremely protectionist. I would say zulutango is especially cynical.


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Love how the OP asked for officer's opinions and failed everyone who presents a different opinion than him.

The whole thing wouldn't have happened if all these so-called "victims" lie flat on their bellies with their hands in the back ready to be cuffed. Failed to comply, the cops are entitled to use "as much force as necessary" to generate compliance. We can sit here and debate all day about what's the appropriate amount/level of force, but at the end of the day, it's what the respective offiers think "necessary" according to the Canadian Use of Force Model at the time of the incident that matters, subject to review/investigation under the Police Act (not including the RCMP)/Criminal Code after the fact.

Keep this in mind: use of force is never pretty even if it's done correctly in accordance with the Canadian Use of Force Model.
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Old 03-28-2010, 04:13 PM   #37
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Under the Criminal Code, there has to be an assault on the Police Officer in order to charge for "resisting arrest". (Section 270(1)(b) http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-46/page-6.html)

You can still resist without assaulting a Police Officer.
Ok, so they can't charge him for resisting arrest because he didn't assault the officer?

The officer in the yellow jacket was asked by the "suspect's" friend for help. He then kicked and kneed the "suspect" who was not assaulting an officer, thought the officer was going to help him, and was complying with orders to "get down on the ground".

This "suspect" was later released without charge.

People must have some confidence that complying with police orders will get them fair treatment. Being thrown on the ground and handcuffed is traumatic enough, being kicked and kneed while partially restrained is just sick.
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Old 03-28-2010, 10:46 PM   #38
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Ok, so they can't charge him for resisting arrest because he didn't assault the officer?
Isn't that what I just wrote?
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Old 03-28-2010, 10:56 PM   #39
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Isn't that what I just wrote?
Yes, and I said that specifically to lead into my next point - he cannot be charged for resisting arrest because there was no assault, yet the officer had no problem throwing the first punch, so to speak.
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:03 PM   #40
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Of course. If someone is failing to comply with my demands and actively resisting my attempts to lawfully arrest or detain them, I will step up my tactics. If they are then trying to strong-arm me and not allow me to move their hands behind their back to be handcuffed, pain compliance follows shortly (and coming from me before it comes from him).
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:19 PM   #41
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Of course. If someone is failing to comply with my demands and actively resisting my attempts to lawfully arrest or detain them, I will step up my tactics. If they are then trying to strong-arm me and not allow me to move their hands behind their back to be handcuffed, pain compliance follows shortly (and coming from me before it comes from him).
But in this case the suspect, er.. victim DID comply with the officer's instruction to get on the ground.

If you can show me where officer yellowjacket made an attempt to move his hands behind his back before he escalated to kicking and kneeing, then I'll gladly stand corrected.

Kneeing someone in the spine could easily cause spinal cord injury. You just don't do it.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:27 AM   #42
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Without seeing what led up to this it is hard to say if he used excessive force or not. I wasn't there and I don't know all the sides of the story, so I can't comment on it.

Throughout my short career I have learned that use of force, justified or excessive, is never camera friendly. Being a police officer is a thankless job because no matter what you do, you are going to be criticized. If you use too much force, you will be criticized for that. If you don't use enough, you will be criticized for letting the situation escalate and get out of control. If you use the right amount of force, all the bleeding hearts will still find something to criticize and make their claim that the police are out of control.

I can tell you that most police officers are good people and are out there to make this a better place to live. Like any other job there are bad apples but the only difference is somehow the public has come to the conclusion that all police officers are the same. If it came out in the media that a teacher beat up a student, the public would focus on that one teacher. There wouldn't be news stories about how teachers are out of control, it would just focus on that one teacher and what he did. On the other hand, one cop uses force that some people deem to be excessive and "the police are out of control!"
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Old 03-29-2010, 08:31 AM   #43
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I don't think all high-school teachers are bad just because a few of them sexually abuse their students.

Yao Wei Wu - police "got the address wrong" and beat the guy senseless.
Robert Dziekanski - self explanatory
Two VicPD officers recently under investigation, one suspended for excessive force
The list goes on...

The militarization of police and their increasing use of force does nothing but widen the gulf that exists between "civilians" and the police.

Being a police officer shouldn't be a thankless job, but the more often we see incidents like these, it's no wonder that it is.
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:08 AM   #44
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I don't think all high-school teachers are bad just because a few of them sexually abuse their students.

Yao Wei Wu - police "got the address wrong" and beat the guy senseless.
Robert Dziekanski - self explanatory
Two VicPD officers recently under investigation, one suspended for excessive force
The list goes on...
That's, what, 8-10 cops?

Now factor in the HUNDREDS who did an amazing job during the Olympics... not just in the downtown core, but in all venue areas.

Add to that the THOUSANDS nation-wide who do their jobs well every day, that aren't doing stupid shit to get themselves in the news.

There are, what, 30,000 RCMP in Canada (nevermind municipal/regional/provincial cops)... that's nearly 11 million man-days of enforcement every year. Now subtract two or three cops per "news item", even once a month... there's 36 "bad" man-days in a year. That's about 0.003% of cop-time that's actually being a "problem".
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Old 03-29-2010, 09:48 AM   #45
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:00 AM   #46
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But in this case the suspect, er.. victim DID comply with the officer's instruction to get on the ground.

If you can show me where officer yellowjacket made an attempt to move his hands behind his back before he escalated to kicking and kneeing, then I'll gladly stand corrected.

Kneeing someone in the spine could easily cause spinal cord injury. You just don't do it.
looked like to me the 1st guy that took him down was trying to cuff him. he pulled his arm back to try to cuff him, told him not to resist, and the guy pulled away. the 1st cop that was struggling with him pulled his arm again and the cop in the yellow jacket saw this and knee'd the guy to get him to comply. after a knee or 2 to the gut and being told to put his hand behind his back he finally complied. looked like the yellow jacket cop was observing the difficulty the 1st cop was having cuffing him and was helping out.
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Old 03-29-2010, 02:02 PM   #47
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looked like to me the 1st guy that took him down was trying to cuff him. he pulled his arm back to try to cuff him, told him not to resist, and the guy pulled away. the 1st cop that was struggling with him pulled his arm again and the cop in the yellow jacket saw this and knee'd the guy to get him to comply. after a knee or 2 to the gut and being told to put his hand behind his back he finally complied. looked like the yellow jacket cop was observing the difficulty the 1st cop was having cuffing him and was helping out.
He could have helped out by grabbing his arm, not kicking, kneeing and pinning him to the ground in a manner which prevented the suspect from putting his left hand behind his back.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:24 PM   #48
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He could have helped out by grabbing his arm, not kicking, kneeing and pinning him to the ground in a manner which prevented the suspect from putting his left hand behind his back.
You know why they didn't pull his arm? Because he would have fallen face first onto the ground while potentially breaking his arm.
Is that what you want? To slam his face onto the ground?
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:35 PM   #49
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You know why they didn't pull his arm? Because he would have fallen face first onto the ground while potentially breaking his arm.
Is that what you want? To slam his face onto the ground?

Hmm.. let's see... potentially damaging his spinal cord by kneeing him in the back or grabbing his arm and letting him fall slowly to the soft grass below...
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:13 PM   #50
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Hmm.. let's see... potentially damaging his spinal cord by kneeing him in the back or grabbing his arm and letting him fall slowly to the soft grass below...
Surely you can let us know which physics books you referenced wherein heavy solids fall slowly.
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