Engine Oil/Oil Changes Myth and Facts Thread

[eFx[A2C]]

Cheapest place to get PP is walmart, 19.88 for 4.4L in 5 and 10W30

[crazyazn]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

^

Moly is added as an antiwear additive, the factory fill Honda has much of it. This is parts per million, even though 33ppm seems like much more than 8ppm, in reality the difference is minuscule. It's just a different formulation.

So more moly doesn't necessarily mean better right? But higher the TBN the better right?

[skyxx]

After I'm done my batch of Mobil 1 0W40, I will head down to the country of Star Bangle Banner to hoard a box of Pennzoil Ultra 5w40. They don't carry the Ultras in Canada so I must trek downwards!

[Expresso]

I'll post my old UOA for the heck of it!

[bcrdukes]

^
Kingshit results!

[Delerious]

In regards to the orange fram filters of death, a forum member recently had a near-failure with said filter, I'll post pictures if you guys want.

Not sure if this has been posted before, but I found it an interesting read (long)

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles

[eFx[A2C]]

Yes please post pics. Fram orange can gets a lot of crap but the bottom line is it works fine for 3k/5k intervals. Folks at bitog though bash it to hell.

[Delerious]

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by crazyazn

So more moly doesn't necessarily mean better right? But higher the TBN the better right?

The jury is still out on Moly DiSuphide. I have yet to come across any reading that conclusively proves it's harmful to passenger cars. (Motorcycles apparently is a different story with their wetclutchs)

Benefits are anti-wear properties and increased fuel econ.

Honda's factory fill has high moly, and Genuine Honda Oil contains good amount of moly. So that kinda swayed me to be confident with an oil like PP. That being said, it's just a different formulation.

Higher TBN is a good indictor the oil can be extended. One thing to note is TBN decreases non-linearly, it goes down slower near the end.

Extended drain oils like Amsoil SSO start out with high TBNs.

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

LT, there was some advancement on the S2k TCT and M1 issues. Gotta dig up the thread, but IIRC, there is some belief that the M1 lubricated too well which caused the TCT to fail. =P

I highly doubt this. You have the link? Would be interesting to read.

I would have imagined it might have more to do with this:


http://www.jobbersworld.com/March%2020,%202009.htm

This is where Castrol Edge and Valvoline get their crazy 8x, 4x better wear protection claims from. Funny thing is, ExxonMobil has stayed totally silent on the matter.

I stopped using M1 long ago.

[KiDEclipse]

FTW >>>>>>>>>>

[LiquidTurbo]

^

haha. Nah, this is betta

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

Originally Posted by KiDEclipse

FTW >>>>>>>>>>

OH SHIT!!! tat is king! i should switch over, forget motul Agip yo

[Spaceship_coupe]

LiquidTurbo what do you think of the Mobil 1 oil filters that they now recently started carrying at Canadian Tire? I'm currently using Napa Gold oil filters with regular dino oil with 7000km oil changes. Do you think it's worth it to switch over to the Mobil 1 filter?

BTW, this is for a 98 Civic Dx beater. Thanks!

[CorneringArtist]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

^

haha. Nah, this is betta

You know that's scented right? Would be funny to know that you had an oil leak when you smell strawberries LOL.

[Mugen EvOlutioN]

i wonder how much a bottle

[eFx[A2C]]

Originally Posted by Prelude_2_NV

LiquidTurbo what do you think of the Mobil 1 oil filters that they now recently started carrying at Canadian Tire? I'm currently using Napa Gold oil filters with regular dino oil with 7000km oil changes. Do you think it's worth it to switch over to the Mobil 1 filter?

BTW, this is for a 98 Civic Dx beater. Thanks!

If you switch to Mobil 1 filters you could leave the filter on for another interval. How much are the napa golds costing you right now? I'm not sure how much the M1 filters cost at ct right now but i'm guessing 15ish ? Napa gold itself can go further than 7k.

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by Prelude_2_NV

LiquidTurbo what do you think of the Mobil 1 oil filters that they now recently started carrying at Canadian Tire? I'm currently using Napa Gold oil filters with regular dino oil with 7000km oil changes. Do you think it's worth it to switch over to the Mobil 1 filter?

BTW, this is for a 98 Civic Dx beater. Thanks!

It makes it a lot easier that you say it's your beater. 7k dino + Napa should serve you just fine.

I haven't seen any studies/data that demonstrate that synthetic media (such as in the new M1 filters) is superior to paper media in such a short interval. I would tend to think that the choice of oil is a more important decision than the oil filter. The job of the oil filter is just to trap large particulates. Most filters even the crappy ones do just fine. 7k is not really an extended interval either. Napa Golds are well-constructed too.

I've never really heard of a car engine life being impacted by the oil filter. If anyone has data that shows otherwise, please share.

What's the price premium on the M1 filters? Your current combination has served your Civic well for 12 years. Keep on doing what you're doing and it should last another 12. Do a UOA and check for % of insolubles if you're worried. I would bet that it's Ultra-low and nothing needs to be changed.

[Spaceship_coupe]

The M1 filters are $15 each at Cdn Tire.

I've only had the Civic for about a year and have already put on 30k kms. I have no idea what oil/filter combo the previous owner had but so far so good. I had to use the Fram filter once because of Cdn Tire's promotion where you get it free with a purchase of a jug of Castrol GTX. I have yet thought of doing a UOA but will probably extend the change to 8k kms.

PS...I really like the Napa Gold filters, imo they are great for the money and I'm thinking of buying a master pack.

[LiquidTurbo]

How many kms on the car?

[Spaceship_coupe]

The car currently has 280k kms. I'll be getting the timing belt service done in the near future as well as a new rad and thermostat.

I plan to keep this car for a few years.

[ericthehalfbee]

I went back through our database at work for the last 5 years and appx 3,000 customer vehicles and looked at all of the engines that needed significant repair work (mechanical repair work on the engine assembly only).

We had one engine with a lubrication failure, and that was because it was a used vehicle and the previous owner did an improper repair to the engine (so stupid I can't even believe they were able to actually remove the engine to rebuild it and get it back in the car, yet they could miss something on the inside so obvious).

The remainder of the repairs fell into the following categories (most common items first).

- Timing chain/belt failures or tensioner failures.
- Head gasket failure.
- Dropped valve seat, sticky valve, weak spring or other valvetrain issues.
- Moving cylinder liner.
- Spun bearings.

Absolutely none of these problems would be detected with a UOA and a UOA would save you nothing in the repair costs by early detection as the companies who sell UOA promote.

Let's take a bearing problem as an example. Your UOA analysis indicates higher than normal values of bearing material in the oil. So where on your UOA report does it tell you which bearing is wearing? Are all your bearings wearing slightly more than normal, or is all the material suspended in the oil from a single bearing that's about to fail? And if your UOA tells you your bearings are wearing, what are you going to do to fix the problem? Are you going to assume that all your bearings are wearing slightly more than normal and change your oil sooner, or are you going to be worried that a single bearing is about to fail? Are the methods the mechanic uses to check your bearings going to suddenly drop in price now that the UOA has identified bearing material in the oil? No, you still need to do the long process of dis-assembling the engine to locate the bad bearing (bearings) and replace them.

In the end, having a UOA tell you there's more bearing material in the oil will do nothing to prevent the bearing problem, it will do nothing to identify the exact source of the problem, and it will make no difference on your final repair bill.


UOA is the answer to a question that nobody asked. I firmly believe that UOA can help you to find out what oil change interval is good for you and how many KM's you can expect to get from a certain oil with your driving habits. I also firmly believe that modern engines with modern oils can go much longer than people think before they need to have their oil changed. But I call BS on the idea that UOA is going to help you determine if your engine is going to fail or make any difference to your repair costs through early detection. Most of the things that can break on your engine aren't going to leave traces in the oil for you to detect. And the ones that do (like bearings) will still require an old-fashioned engine rebuild to locate and repair.

We looked at UOA years ago for our customers and decided based on the repairs we were doing that UOA would have simply been an additional expense that would have made no difference to our customers repair bills. If we did regular UOA's on our customer cars we would be spending upwards of $30,000 per year on tests and receive no benefit. We decided our customer money would be better spent elsewhere.



In my case I can spend $30 on an oil change every 5,000km or I can spend $60 ($30 oil change and $30 UOA) every 10,000km's. In the first scenario I change my oil twice as often and the second I stretch my oil change and have some report tell me that "your oil is good to for 10,000km oil change intervals".

I'll go with the first option, thank you. I don't need a report to tell me my oil is OK just like I don't need to spend money to tell me the sun is going to rise tomorrow or anything else that's so obvious. Oil related lubrication failures are so rare I don't even worry about them with my personal (or customer) vehicles.

For people where your oil change costs significantly more (like using 8 litres of synthetic and an OEM filter), you could save money in the long term by getting a UOA done and getting the maximum life from your oil, but for most cars the savings just simply aren't there. So I'll go with using my money to change my oil more often, and while my car is in the air I'm going to look over the rest of my car. There's where the possibility of saving money exists as I can visually see if components on my car (belts, hoses, brakes, exhaust, suspension, mounts and so on) need attention.

[LiquidTurbo]

Nice post. I thought you were a software developer?

For the most part I actually agree with you. I've never advocated that a single pass UOA can early detect an imminent engine failure..

The remainder of the repairs fell into the following categories (most common items first).

- Timing chain/belt failures or tensioner failures.
- Head gasket failure.
- Dropped valve seat, sticky valve, weak spring or other valvetrain issues.
- Moving cylinder liner.
- Spun bearings.

How many of these are related to oil failing? (Except perhaps the last one). I agree that a UOA cannot possibly detect these things. (Neither can visually inspecting the oil). UOA is good for seeing if you have a coolant leak in the system, or if you have insufficient air filtration.

Most UOA companies that I've seen have never promoted the idea that doing a UOA will be able to catch something early. UOA is not X-Ray vision to inspect the components inside the engine. The best way for that is to open up the engines and physically look inside. UOA is good to see if your intervals are sufficient. I don't recommend doing a UOA every single oil change unless you're a serious oil enthusiast. I think it's sufficient every other change.

Why don't you feel the need to change your oil every 3,000km? Because you know that it's completely unnecessary. It's possible to make the same jump of faith from 5,000 to say, 10,000. UOA is a great tool to help you do that.

Most people don't give two shits about their oil changes , but it's RS , where people are willing to wash and wax their cars every other day, so certain members may be interested. You make a good point about the car being up and being able to inspect components, however. But again, most average people simple don't care about that kind of thing.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by LiquidTurbo

I highly doubt this. You have the link? Would be interesting to read.

Billman is a trusted S2000 mechanic out of NY.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...#entry17605449

[LiquidTurbo]

Originally Posted by SumAznGuy

Billman is a trusted S2000 mechanic out of NY.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...#entry17605449

And he quotes:

"To recap:

Mobil1 is not the problem.

Sandblast your worm gear and fix the problem.

Don't buy a new tensioner. If you have, sandblast its worm gear right off the bat."

Nothing to do with an oil issue, but a design issue.