Tottaly different situation but this is how Toronto's SWAT team handles things.

I think we can all agree. The situation was a complete failure by an incompetent police force and government.

Very well said Noir.
The right thing to do is not agitate.

Although now, knowing what happened with this type of incident.
Fuck it.
My first instinct will be to jump the gunmen when the opportunity arises.


Im very deeply sadenned with the turn of events.
The outcome was simply unnecessary. My condolences.
We live in a fkn sick world.

You may only see one gun but how will you be certain he has no side-arm. Again, it's a gamble. If you lose and the guy regains control, he will be forced to take a more aggressive stance towards his hostage-takers to keep you all under control.

A more aggressive stance thanks to you. This goes back to not just gambling on your life, but you deciding to gamble on everyone else's.

Secondly, altercations with hostage takers is typically inadvisable by HRTs because when you are in close proximity to the hostage taker, it renders's HRT's firearms useless. They're not going to help you (and the other hostages) when they have no shot because of your little wrestling match.

The plan is to stay put and let a tactical team with tactical weapons and trained hostage negotiator do their jobs. Luckily for us, we live in a 1st world country with 1st world resources. Again, if we were caught in the same situation, I'd tell you to STFU and sit down lest you gamble the life of mine and my families'

Again mind you, just because a hostage situation is dragging out for hours on end to a day doesn't mean that your situation is deteriorating. That is a standard tactic for HRT's to fatigue out a hostage-taking-team. Also, as a hostage-taking-team fatigues, it gives HRT's something to barter with ie. supplies in food and water.

Yes, in this specific case the Philippine SWAT pales in comparison to the SWAT we see here in Canada and the US. But the rule of thumb still remains the same: A compliant hostage is still better than a wildcard hostage for a peaceful resolution - the primary resolution that all HRT's work towards to and what the hostages prefer. You'd be kidding if you think that was not anyone's primary goal.

You may not give a flying fuck, but everyone else does. Again, I've already shown why your acts of bravado can do more harm than help.

It's like gambling in a casino. You're deluded with the grandeur of winning big but fail to realize that although there is a chance to come out on top, generally speaking the odds are on the favour of the house - and I reiterate, you're not just gambling your own life, but with everyone else's as well.

Funny, here in Canada that's exactly what they tell me to do come face to face with a bear.

Good luck with that. Again, I'm hoping I don't find myself in the same plane, bus, or cruise ship when that happens.

Noir don't bother with these guys. They're blinded by a combination of hollywood style thrills, testosterone, ignorance, and action games. They can't comprehend what the word "Risk" means to themselves and others.

I'm with you on this one, I sure as hell hope I'm not on the same boat/plane/train/bus as these wannabe rambo heroes. But if I am I just hope the hostage taker is reasonable enough to use that guy as an example and spare the rest of us.

Let's change the situation then- If the risk was lower, would you do it? What if the man was holding a bolo instead? You still wouldn't fight back even if he was already hacking at someone?

This is why I made the "don't hate the people..." post
I was raised by a filipino maid for quite a large chunk of my childhood. She became my second mother (to this day I am still in contact with her, treating her LIKE my mother). Through her, I learnt to respect people, regardless of what they do, what they wear, or what they believe in. I carry that mindset out everyday. Sure I'll make the racist black joke here and there - but I make sure EVERYONE around me knows 100% that it means no harm, and is only a joke. What one person does is not representative of their country - what two people of the same origin does, does not represent their people.

I would like to add to the quoted text on how I feel
With this event, I really understand the horror and sorrow from both sides (Filipino and HK/Chinese). On one end, your government screwed up royally, causing the unnecessary deaths of innocent tourists, and putting your country's image at stake. There is nothing you can really do about it, being that the corrupt government siphons tax dollars such that various social services like the police police force gets so little training. It's easy to become enraged at the government, and those either working in or have relatives/friends working in Hong Kong or China feel threatened due to the sudden rise in rage against the filipino population.

On the other hand, those in Hong Kong feel that what the police force did was inadequate. Now don't get me wrong, it was completely inadequate and unacceptable on so many levels, but keep in mind - this is at the fault of the government itself, not the people. They all paid their taxes and went their merry way, but the corrupt government and their mad money siphoning means that only a minute portion of funding actually goesto the police. It's easy to blur the line between a country and it's people - sure there are those who took inappropiate pictures in front of the torn tourbus, but who is there to stop them? If a similar incident were to occur say in... Canada, a small group may similarly be tempted to take such photos, but thanks to the fact that police funding actually goes to the police, barriers are set up, and the crime scene is quickly covered up and dealt with. In short - enforcement and training makes the difference.

So whether or not you take posts on Revscene seriously or not, I urge all of us to think about my post. It's a traumatic experience for everyone, and the last thing on ANYBODY's mind is an all out hate war between the two peoples. It's not like the filipino people wantedthis to happen, hell they are probably even more concerned than most of us at this moment in time - as it really exposes how poorly equipped and poorly trained the police force really is.

Once again - hate on the government, accuse them all you want, but leave the people alone.

you don't have to bold the stuff.....HK people as a whole aren't emotional or irrational by any stretch or mile. HK people tend to think about the consequences before they do anything.....which is probably more than what the Sorry We Aren't Trained team is capable of.

As far as I can tell we aren't going to do anything to the philipinos.....just swear a lot online. and probably a peaceful protest.

I agree with 80% of the things you said, but having law enforcement officers taking pictures of the crime scene like a local attraction is NOT acceptable.

To me, the government is made up of its people. So if the government blows donkey balls, not ALL filipinos are blame-free.

he went crazy right after he found out that they arrested his brother (his brother is a cop and his son is a cop as well). he wasn't asking his job back like nothing happened. he was asking to re-open his case and they didn't give him! my dad was in military and police for 25 years in philippines (retired now) and if this thing happened to him i bet he would do the same thing (not like he will hostage tourist but probably kill who ever fire him). i think the ombudsman use too much of his power to fire the guy. the guy got 10 or more awards for the last 22 years of service and you think he will just let someone take away everything from him just like that. the ombudsman should've seen this coming! i can understand if the guy was new on the job, but this guy is been in military/police for 22 years+10 or more awards. being that long on the service, i bet his been in so many gunfire situation. meaning, killing and firing a gun is like regular to him.

agree to certain extend. Another major thing is that a lot of times the police are even more corrupt than the government. In many 3rd world countries, Police officers are worst than criminals. They take bribes and collect "protection tax". Many of the kidnappings are done by police officers. And if anyone wants to fight back. It's usually a police officers word against yours, so it becomes almost impossible to whistleblow. The few honest cops are also afraid to whistleblow due to repurcussions.

Even if the government were to triple the pay of every police officer, the bribes and corruption within the force would still occur due to the culture there (although bribes and extortions might decrease slightly).

All this said, there probably won't be any significant changes in the government/police force anytime soon, which is quite sad.
RIP to the victims.

There's a difference between "already hacking someone" vs. "someone threatening to hack you." Ask any cop. What do you do when a robber threatens you at knife point for your wallet. And when I mean threaten I mean nobody has crossed the threshold of physical harm yet.

How many cops do you think would advise your typical male, female, child to fight for your wallet? How many would advise to just comply?


To tie that into the current discussion:

What you want is someone to Rambo it up and go toe-to-toe with a hostage taker. That's 2 people with one winner (either you or the hostage taker). You're gambling the lives of hostages on a 50/50 chance?

But wait.... It's not 50/50.

He's armed and you're not. It's more like 20/80 for the hostage taker. Think about that, you're going to gamble everyone else's life on 20%. There's a reason why someone else mentioned they don't want to find themselves in a bus/train/plane with you when shit goes down.



Secondly, you're Monday night quarterbacking. Not all hostage situations are 1 man shows. Tell me, what do you expect from hostages when it's a multi-person crew?

dude. i would run if i could run, but you cannot run. you're cornered, in a bus, or whatever. you CANNOT run.

my army experience has nothing to do with this, it's just reservist training. so what, i know how to handle an assault rifle and dig trenches, and ...?

they only really taught me 3 things, take initiative, be aggressive, and don't show any mercy.

those are 3 principals any fucking human being should have. not to sit there and be fucking idle and "let things play out" in such a situation. we're not fucking animals. we have brains that are capable of cognitive reasoning... we're not dogs.

the more I read this thread, the more i understand why some countries still instill military conscription. it takes a buncha idle slackass civilians, like most of you, into initiative taking men. i bet no one on that bus ever got in a fight in their life, or put in a situation where they have to think quickly and save their asses.

I'm just as average as you are. hell i bet some country boy is better at handling any firearm and better at everything to do with survival than i am.

the only difference is our minds.

no man, too many hollywood movies for YOU. people don't just sit idle and get saved. only if you're extremely lucky.

we have a service for everything now, locksmith to unlock your door, mechanic to fix your shit, and people to save your life? give me a break.

yes, gambling others lives is part of the game. that was always part of the equation.
wars are won by people on the field that make split second decisions that put the lives of people around them in danger. wars or also lost that way.
and you know who the leaders are? the people that make the decisions and act. everyone else is just a follower, or waiting to die.

you make a decision, fast, and you do it. and you don't turn back. that's the fastest and best way to survive.

this scenario is no different than if you were standing on a busy intersection and you saw someone get fucking hit by a car or crushed or whatever.

99% of you would sit there with your jaw dropped, or crying or whatever else. only 1% of you guys would actually snap out of it, shit kick the crying lady next to you and tell her to call 911, as you run down and try to help out.

it's the exact same thing. so now i ask you, are you the type that'll sit back and just be awe struck, or make a split second decision and take action? or do you need someone to take action for you?


all i had to know was this, there's many of us, in a small place, and 1 of him. he has one assault rifle, maybe some hidden weapons, and maybe a few magazines. who knows. it's an easy decision. 1-2+ people can take him down. i KNOW i can make him point that thing somewhere else as long as i get my hands on the barrel, luckily for me i know how to release the magazine. ok so at this point, it took me like fuckin half a second to analyze that. if i had 2+ hours or whatever, dude, i could easily think of all the other possibilities. ok he might have a bomb, he might have another hand gun.

THOSE ARE RISKS IM WILLING TO TAKE. so what if he has a knife? and another hand gun? he's gotta let one hand go to get the other. then i have twice as much control over the rifle. he starts swinging with his knife? go ahead, im not going to fucking let go.

everyone wears a belt. that can be used as a weapon. fuck. you know how quickly you can get a belt around someones neck and just yank and run down the aisle. if you're lucky you'll crush his trachea that way. there's so many possible things that COULD work. some better than others. but all u need is TWO people willing to risk their lives.

it's so easy to decide dude. SO easy.

1 guy shot already, possibility of you getting shot: high.
possbility of others getting killed: high.

so on one hand you have this: 2 people can risk their lives and save everyone, and maybe potentially get everyone killed (and you remember the "swat" are outside and might burst in to help, that's another possibility).

or on the other hand you can sit there and be slack and idle and watch another person get shot, and slowly run out of options and hope the swat will save you, when ONE person has already fucking been killed. ONE person is ONE too many. after ONE person, he has no reason to STOP.

don't tell me you've never been in a last stand, all in glory situation. you fucked up. there's no way out, you already fucked up, just fuck it all and fuck up even more at least you stood for something right? everyone's been in that situation. stubborn as hell, you fucked up, FUCK IT, just fuck it all. i know i have.

if i was the hostage taker, and i killed one person. u know what, im gonna kill them all. it makes no difference. especially with rage and anger filling up. the only thing that matters is pain and suffering that i can inflict. that's exactly how he felt. i know it, you know it.

it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.


i'll tell you another scenario. imagine this was the exact same thing. except instead of being on a bus full of slack idle hongers. it's a bus full of texan americans. i fucking BET YOU my LIFE, that they woulda taken the hostagetaker down. maybe they woulda lost 1-2 hostages in the process. MAYBE, but that's worth it.

aggressiveness, initiative > slack and idle. always.

yeah you give up your wallet. a wallet isnt your life. you can buy another wallet. you cant buy another life.
like i said, someone's been shot already. killed. without any damn good reason.

so you should be asking, if there are a buncha you lined up, and the bad guy asks a guy for his wallet, the guy gives the wallet and then he gets shot anyway, when its your turn, are you just gonna hand over your wallet? FUCK NO. throw it in his god damn face and im gonna try to kick his balls or anything before i get shot.

it's not 20%. you have the element of surprise. the last thing he expects is a hostage to jump him.
that ambush, that element of surprise gives you a huge advantage for a very short window of opportunity. you know even if he were to walk past you and u grabbed his face and just gouged your fingers into his eyes, you've already almost won.

we're talking about THAT situation now ok. if there were 2-3 of them on that bus holding hostages, i wouldnt of done shit. cuz that's a 0% chance to win, unless somehow every hostage jumped them at the same time which wouldn't happen unless they could some how communicate.
unless you are extremely super lucky and somehow grab one weapon and mow everyone else down. but that's not realistic.

there's so many things u could do. another idea is, how many of you have lighters? just set something in the bus on fire.

yes im sorry that is very selfish, he could go berzerk and kill you all, you could end up killing someone else, but you know what, he aint gonna stay on the fucking burning bus. these are just all ideas im pulling out of my ass while i sit here eating cereal, listening to music. im not even trying.

another thing is, what are you gonna do? if im there and i do it, you're not gonna tell me to sit down when im already ontop of the gunman struggling. are you really gonna sit there?
im asking you to answer this ONE question. if you are in a hostage situation like this one. and someone took initiative, and they're struggling, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
he's already made the decision for you slack idle ass. you have no choice. well you do, you can sit there and CONTINUE to be idle, or help out. WHAT are you going to do?

my point is, everything involves the risk of others' lives. and whoever takes initiative, controls their lives. if no one takes initiative, you might as well pray to god or jesus or allah or whatever, cuz all that's gonna get you is a one way ticket to heaven.

If only Ulic had been on that bus...

^ I wonder how much differently it woulda played out

I might have died. I might have saved them. maybe 9 people would have died instead of 8.
or maybe 7 instead.

my point is, it doesn't matter.

im just trying to say, you shouldn't be slack and idle. anyone of your lives should be expendable for the sake of wanting to save yourself and others. you shouldn't have to think too hard about it. it's only your physical body anyways, if you're religious, why would you even be scared? right?

yeah maybe you're right. if only i had been on that bus. I might of been that guy handcuffed and shot first. he killed the most serious threat first. probably the young man that woulda done something.

that young man could have been any of you. I sure as hell wouldn't of cooperated.

life sucks, and then you die. what are you going to do about it.

Part of the problem like you said is that no one knows how its going to play out. You can be sitting in that situation thinking shit I'm going to tackle him and hopefully he'll go down and maybe he'll only get a shot off an injure someone or kill just one guy. But fuck i'm also thinking that every 10 seconds from now the swat is coming onto the bus and their going to kill the guy and everyone's going to be safe. The problem with calling everyone here a pussy for wanting to wait out the situation is because god forbid I took initiative and got someone killed, and it turns out the the swat team had everything under control. Enjoy playing that situation out in your head over and over again before your fucking brain fry's thinking how you killed someone trying to be a man.

Of course not, no one knows that more than the Filipinos in the Philippines. Hell even in this thread, you see people saying they are embarrassed for what their country/government has done. Like you said, it's fucked up with the police officers posing in the pictures, to the nursing students who were doing the same actions while the President of the Philippines acting/talking opposite of what you would expect a head of state should act/talk in a national press conference. He was suppose to be the "Obama" for the Filipinos when he was recently elected this year. Sadly, he acted like G.W. Bush.

Didn't read the whole thread, too much to read but here's a bit of what I'm thinking right now..


As a proud Filipino, I was disgusted and felt embarrassed on how the police force reacted to the incident. My relatives have been raging about this incident and feel embarrassed as well. I don't think anyone is really arguing that it could have happened anywhere in the world but it's pretty obvious the Philippine government and Police Force is being blamed for it. A lot of corruption happening indeed, I was still little when the whole Joseph Estrada took place but I wasn't that clueless that I didn't know something was wrong. I've read a lot of racism going on, don't think it's fair for the rest of the Filipino citizens being called this and that because of this incident. The pictures of people posing is just unclassy and very disrespectful. I'm glad my parents brought me here.

My 2cents

i've already considered that.

i've already mentioned it above. it is a risk im willing to take. and burden im willing to carry with me for the rest of my life.

if i chickened out all the times he walked by me and i just didnt think i had the right chance, or for whatever reason just couldnt get myself up, as soon as someone else took initiative, and i already planned to want to do something or thought some kinda action was possible. i'm their man. i'll follow him to the end. I'll glady die beside them than of sat idle.

this is one of the few situations where you can save a life and/or be responsible for death, but not pay the price of going to prison afterwards for fucking up. the choice is in your hands.

I never mentioned my other motive behind this, other than staying alive. If I did win, I'd execute him. I'll be more than gladly to pay the price of going to prison if I have to. It's okay.

my question to everyone and no one has answered it yet is, if someone else takes that initiative, are you going to sit there or get up?

We get it. In fact we got it 8 years ago a few years after Revscene started. You've always been pro-conflict.

Rationalize it all you want but at the end of the day "initiating" conflict on your hostage holder only makes things more complex not only to your hostage taker, but your hostage rescue team, and your fellow hostages.

But hey... at least you've stroked your manly pride right. You're not anyone's bitch. :rolleyes:

.

that's not logical. he's dead outside? so what's the point of a negotiations if you're dead no matter what? please enlighten me. and you took what i said out of context. i said that was one of my few small ideas that just came to me while i was sitting here with my thumb up my ass. give me an hour in a stress situation and i'll build a laser rifle out of a pop can and a magnifying glass, i might need a flashlight. hah.
your friend knows logically what to, and he is the first to react. I'd go into battle with him than you guys. all that matters is he made a decision way faster than you guys could even blink.



Noir, you still didn't answer my question.

that's the only thing that matters here.

that's what this whole argument is about. whether people like you, would pick your idle ass up and do anything if anyone else got up BEFORE you.

there's no point arguing about whether DOING anything is right, cuz as long as there are people like me, and there are plenty, then this is a real possibility.

I stood my side, you still haven't even admitted to what you would do.

i asked you a serious and very rational and possible question. you can't even answer it.

who'd wanna be stuck on a bus with you. for real. i've asked you like 3 times.

i've booked it 3 blocks at 2-4am to 4 fatality car crashes that I hear just to go check up on the victim. and they're always dead or dying. No one else usually shows up. and if they do, they just stand about 100-200m away with cameras or their hands over their mouths. c'mon. I don't claim shit without having experience of competition against other people in act or react (or lack of reaction) situations.

sorry man.

I'm not arguing anymore, cuz i just realised another point.

Your life would be my hands in these situations. I'm willing to die for the cause, and take a chance. You might, you might not. so it doesnt fucking matter what you think anymore. Someone else decided for you, me.

I'm going to bed now.

Chance of surviving a bus hostage takeover under different scenarios:

-In the US or Serbia: 99%
-In the Philippines: 55%
-In the US or Serbia with Ulic or some other hero wannabe on board: 35%