Yeah, sure showed them.

I don't know...I was playing around with that and I'm actually willing to say that the stats are pretty accurate.

So you can assume about people making choices for them** but much like your penis(I'm not being an asshole here, bear with me :), when the stump end starts to go limp(notice the actuals start in 2001), the tip doesn't get to be excited on its own. So, whether use alternate routes or not, there isn't enough traffic to meet their projections.

Their assumptions for the business case for the new bridge show ever increasing volumes of 'new' cars. It's recency. That which happened in our nearest past forms the basis for our decisions.

"Traffic is increasing. Therefore, traffic will continue to increase"

Now, you'd say...but its projections. Maybe this guy is full of shit.

Cool!

But I couple it with: the train wreck that is traffic on goldenears and the checks we write to cover it and the fact that the business case for the PM2 was kind of bad to begin with(last minute decision to pull it and replace), I'm actually kind of inclined to believe that the same thing will happen here.

**You aren't necessarily wasting gas. Just because its new, doesn't automatically make it better in all things. If your commute was always the #1, then yes, going out of the way would be foolish, but if you could go either way, then you can still go either way. Just me.

OH!

And stop bringing up the goddamned HST all the time! It was shitty law!

:):)

So what's the alternative?

The old Port Mann and surrounding infrastructure was WAY over-loaded and over-crowded. More capacity needed to be added, one way or another. So when you're already dumping a few billion into the project, do you skimp on a few percentage points and build things JUST BARELY big enough to handle projections, and then have things get clogged up again during rush hour, but still come in even over-all by averaging in all times of the day?

Or do you take the opportunity to do it all ONCE, spend a little extra, make sure there's PLENTY of room for any possible future growth, and little chance that rush hours are going to clog up for a very long time?

The former way is how MANY projects have been done over the years, and come back to bite us before long. As long as the entire corridor is getting ripped up and re-done, better to over-engineer things a bit while you have the chance, as well as re-designing and re-doing ALL the interconnects that need it.

I mean, I can think of at least twice in the last 20 years that the Cape Horn interchange has been kind of half-assed re-built, that's kind of shuffled traffic around, but not really CHANGED its flow, and certainly not IMPROVED it more than just temporarily. Now, it's a dream to use, and it will still get better as the rest of the connections are brought online.

Unfortunately, transportation is one of the biggest draws for armchair quarterbacks. Over-build things by even a bit, and everyone's all over it for being a waste. Under-build it, and before long people are bitching about the idiots that designed it too small for the growing capacity. Transportation designers pretty much LIVE a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't existence thanks to the tens of thousands of people who "know better".

None of which I would mind if: each user weren't paying a premium rated toll(a) and paying out to the financiers in a public-private partnership when the number of users does not match the projections.(B)

We'll get over (a), but not when the bills start coming in ala goldenears. The only reason no one gives a shit about it on the goldenears, is no one actually wanted it, or uses it.
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I gotta say, I normally don't agree with either of you, but Soundy's nailed it about the Port Mann, and then Gridlock has an excellent point with the Golden Ears.

I guess the whole thing is like the HST...it's theory is quite good; the execution however...

I wouldn't say "no-one wanted" the GEB. It's long been known that a fixed crossing was needed between Mission and the Port Mann, as the Albion Ferry just didn't have the capacity, and really, funnelling all the traffic through the middle of Fort Langley wasn't the greatest idea. I think the biggest "huh?" with the GEB is where they chose to put it, as it still leaves a huge gap between it and the Mission bridge, that's now un-served by any crossing (whether or not the ferry should have been kept in service is a whole other discussion).

Realistically, given the current population centers, the available access, and the areas of parks and farmland on the south bank of the Fraser, it probably uses the best alignment available.

I just want someone to nail those fokkers who get away with driving in the HOV lane to get discount. Similar to those bastards who ride the Skytrain for free.

Not sure how much revenue is lost......... probably not that much, but still irks me. Majority of people are honest and see the bigger picture. Bottom line - shit costs money. Just hope the money collected is used wisely and collected with efficiency.

With you on that brother.

I'm sure once the construction wraps up the police will be on each end of the bridge weekly to enforce the HOV lane restrictions, and I bet the first couple times they do it, they are going to absolutely CLEAN HOUSE.

EDIT:

Heres to hoping they finish up the willingdon exit soon, with BCIT right there its a nightmare at about 5:30 when everyone is leaving school and traffic is building up. Drove by it late last night and I am not even going to complain about the retarded trafficking strategy because there was a lot of work happening.

Yeah, they're saving, what... 15%? That amounts to 45 cents on a $3 toll. HOV ticket is something like $180? You'd have to do that every day for a year to make up the ticket cost.

Finally, the third lane on Hwy1 from 232nd to 264th eastbound opened this morning. Made a difference, but most people were confused as to what they should do - as in they thought the lane would end and merge eventually. Very right lane was empty most of the way. I just went in and cruised all the way up the hill. Perhaps by tomorrow those turning off at the 264th exit will figure it out and stop clogging up the other two lanes.

The westbound climbing lanes where Sumas Way and Fraser Hwy. join Hwy.1 in Abbotsford are like this as well... people will get on the highway and then immediately move to the middle lane, leaving the right lane wide open. Been like that for years, people still haven't clued in.

Come to think of it, the ramp from Brunette onto Hwy.1 w/b has been this way for decades - people still merge over immediately, even when it's a dead-stop in rush hour, leaving those in the know (or just those who are paying attention) a few hundred meters to zip ahead.

Yup, people are pretty clueless.... either that or they are on auto-pilot.

Some of them switch like so quickly it's scary. And, they don't even look, as if they have the right away. Sometimes I wish I had a fricken rocket launcher installed on the car, LOL. Rid the roads of these narrow-minded fucktards. /rant.

If I had this.. Nobody would ever be infront of me again :joy:

This. When the new Pitt River Bridge opened, exiting Loughheed westbound to the Mary Hill Bypass switched from a left-turn lane, to the two right lanes exiting to an overpass... for a full year, EVERY TIME I went over that bridge, I'd see someone ahead of me fly across three lanes at the last second because they were on autopilot, didn't bother to look at the AMPLE SIGNAGE... and probably didn't learn the last 10 times that the exit had changed.

Same thing happened when the new ramps from MHB to Hwy. 1 w/b opened - plenty of signs, plenty of advance warning if you're actually paying attention... and even so, enough people got confused and went the wrong way, they sent out news crews to collect people's bitching about it. One idiot actually claimed he was "forced" over the new Port Mann because of it... fine, you accidentally go down the ramp and end up on United, but then you have to stay in the right lane, over the overpass, then get in the middle or left lane around the loop (under the sign that says TOLL BRIDGE), then make that right turn onto Lougheed, before you're "stuck" going onto the Port Mann... dude had a half-dozen or more opportunities to go a different way.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...id%20there.jpg

Cool, I was waiting to see if anyone would catch that (right of way)...... it's RS, so I wasn't expecting a correction or a play on words comment. You have a keener eye than most.

Came across this article just now:

Province admits Port Mann traffic?s down, calls it temporary | News1130

I'm sure there is at least some truth to how more people are taking public transit to cross the Fraser. But I find it hard to believe that there has been no mass diversion of drivers. New West and the Pattullo has long been turned into an even bigger gong show since the tolls came on. And I know from personal experience that it wasn't quite that jammed up when the Port Mann was still free.

Even when tolls were $1.50 congestion wasn't that bad along McBride. Amazing the lengths people will go to to save $1.50, doesn't even buy a coffee for the day

Agreed that the congestion wasn't nearly that bad when the $1.50 toll was in effect. But I have a slightly different take than UFO does. It isn't a savings of $1.50 drivers think about -- it's $0 vs $6 (for 2 trips) that they see.

Of course, they probably forgot to take into account how much more gas they use while idling, or how much their own time is worth...

The thing is for someone making near minimum wage, it might be "worth" it in their minds to spend extra time but save money. Where as someone in a simliar position but lets say double the pay, may have an additional $6 disposable income if it means the save an hour (total both ways) in time.

Thankfully I go against rush-hour traffic when taking the Patullo. But it's very noticeable that lineups to cross are much longer than they were pre-tolled Port Mann Bridge. Even when I go home at night there is a bit of extra congestion heading north. A few years ago it was empty after 5:30pm.

I'm sure some of the people who are avoiding the toll deem it necessary because of their specific situations. But I'm willing to bet that a significant amount of drivers are avoiding it just to save the $6 and nothing more than that, be it because they think roads should be free or whether they're too cheap to pay a toll to save time.

And yet, how many of those going the "free" routes are calculating how much extra gas they're burning? Bet for a lot of them, it comes out to costing the same either way, if not being cheaper to take the bridge... but they don't look at their gas receipts, they just see the "$6" and get all bent out of shape and do stupid things rather than thinking it through.

^I think we're saying the same thing lol

Its like how my grandparents will spend all day driving all over town to 5 different stores to find the one that has peanut butter on sale for 50 cents cheaper. And then brag about how they saved 50 cents. lol vs me, who walks across the street to the local grocery store which is generally a little more expensive, but I dont have to drive anywhere to get there, and Im home in 20 minutes.

to be a complete hypocrite, I avoid the Port Mann and take the Patullo because of the $3, and even when it was $1.50. But I don't have to go out of my way to take the free bridge, and its not a trip i make frequently.

If I made that commute every day, i think i would go crazy waiting in the congestion and having to deal with the last minute lane cutters every single day. For my own mental health that $6 would be money well spent even if it didn't save me any time.

Time, fuel, wear/tear, stress = money, one way or another