Government Struck Down

[Expresso]

Originally Posted by 91LS-VTak

I would be very hesitant to vote Liberal because I'm afraid they'd cancel the F-35 purchase. After what they did with the Sea King replacements, i don't want our military to go through that again.

Yea what the hell, Liberals claim they would back out of the F35 deal and hold an open competition for bids. What a waste of time!

[tool001]

Originally Posted by 91LS-VTak

I would be very hesitant to vote Liberal because I'm afraid they'd cancel the F-35 purchase. After what they did with the Sea King replacements, i don't want our military to go through that again.

Originally Posted by HachiSix

Yea what the hell, Liberals claim they would back out of the F35 deal and hold an open competition for bids. What a waste of time!

its not a waste of time. you get ur money's worth. look up mmrca deal india is putting together. spending $10 billion, along with that they have offset clause which dictates that %50 of $ spent would be reinvested in india plus TOT. that means half of the $ will be reinvested in india by any company that wins the contract (meaning jobs/industry for canada, and future as a parts supplier). On top of the full tot and that they can modify source code if needed.

if u do readup on canada f-35 purchase they dont have any thing setup like that. on top of that no full tot. no source code .


Harper said the cost of the program will be xy to canada, where as pentagon has said due to costs overrun/inflation/parts it will be yz.

From MMRCA bid: source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010[30]) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be.[29] Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

This tender will be the first time that an Offset clause has been included in an Indian defence deal, which led to many changes in the RFP as the Offset policy and life-cycle costs needed to be improved and finalized. This led to delays in issuing the RFPs.

The economic offset for the MMRCA tender was increased to 50% under the DPP 2006. The bidders must confirm the offset details in a separate proposal, to be submitted by 9 June 2008.[78] This brings the value of offsets in the MMRCA deal to almost 25,000 crore (US$5.6 billion).

dont you remember when air canada bought planes from airbus rather than going thru full transparent competition for bids.

[TheNewGirl]

Originally Posted by JD¹³

As usual the NDP are pushing issues noone really cares about. Jack Layton defiantly stating he's running for PM make me chuckle, he's so disconnected from reality it's shocking. He will never even be the leader of the opposition.

Don't laugh.

It's just as likely you could have a NDP PM as a Liberal PM. And if the Con's largely Anti Liberal Campaign has it's intended effect Layton will end up opposition leader.

While here in BC they're not particularly strong, there's sections of the country that are pissed at the Cons and don't trust the Liberals so may flip to NDP. (That said it's still most likely we'll end up with a Con minority again).

Layton, while some of his policies seem scattered actually is not a dumb guy as politicians go. He's the only party leader that actively goes looking for votes from traditionally non voting demographics and can regularly be found involved with the much needed student/youth vote as well as pandering to the blue collar and low income voter who are increasingly feeling alienated by the Libs and the Cons.

I personally would not want to see the NDP leading the country but don't underestimate Layton's political prowess. He's making very calculated moves and if you look at cost vs gain in terms of votes, very smart ones.

[vitaminG]

Originally Posted by tool001

its not a waste of time. you get ur money's worth. look up mmrca deal india is putting together. spending $10 billion, along with that they have offset clause which dictates that %50 of $ spent would be reinvested in india plus TOT. that means half of the $ will be reinvested in india by any company that wins the contract (meaning jobs/industry for canada, and future as a parts supplier). On top of the full tot and that they can modify source code if needed.

if u do readup on canada f-35 purchase they dont have any thing setup like that. on top of that no full tot. no source code .

india is also developing a 5th generation fighter with russia the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA. They obviously wont be holding a compprtitive bid whe the time comes to purchase that.

At the end of the day there is only one 5th gen fighter jet available to canada which is the f35 and a competition would be completely redundant and a waste of time and money.

[tool001]

Originally Posted by vitaminG

india is also developing a 5th generation fighter with russia the Sukhoi/HAL FGFA. They obviously wont be holding a compprtitive bid whe the time comes to purchase that.

At the end of the day there is only one 5th gen fighter jet available to canada which is the f35 and a competition would be completely redundant and a waste of time and money.

for amount of air combat canadian air forces see, i dont see the need to get F-35. but i guess thats a whole different argument. canada is needed in manily for more logistical support type of role.

last combat missions were flown in 1991 iraq, and now in libiya. u dont spend money on a prized stallion if u dont plan to have him race often..

meanwhile rest of the military/navy is using 1970-80 equipment.

[roastpuff]

I wouldn't call the F-35 a prized stallion... it's more of a workhorse (F-16 equivalent) than anything else.

I agree in that the F-35 is the only viable option (politically speaking) for Canada - F-22 definitely overkill and not being exported, the Eurofighter unlikely to be purchased and also pretty much overkill, the Rafale falls under the same problems as the Eurofighter...

[tool001]

^ eurofighter/rafale overkill? when they cost less than F-35... lol


[URL="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20110330/harper-disputed-fighter-jet-estimates-110330/20110330?s_name=election2011"]

BRAMPTON, Ont. — Stephen Harper says he stands by his cost estimate for the F-35 stealth fighters.

The prime minister made the declaration Wednesday, even though the Pentagon's latest estimate for the version of the fighter jet Canada intends to buy is double what the Conservative government has projected.

In defending the $9-billion sticker price, Canada's Defence Department has said it will pay between US$70 million and US$75 million for each aircraft, a figure that the parliamentary budget officer has disputed.

The Pentagon recently projected it will pay $151 million for each aircraft for the F-35A, the standard runway take-off and landing version of the fighter bomber.
The U.S. Government Accountability Office, crunching numbers earlier this month, pegged the cost between $110 million and $115 million per plane. But defence experts said that report doesn't take into account recent changes to the program.

Harper says there are cost increases in the U.S. program that have no impact on Canada and he's confident of the numbers he's been given by officials.

"All the information suggests we're well within the cost estimates for these jets, which we need," Harper said during a campaign stop Wednesday.

Canada's CF-18 fighter jets, which the Joint Strike Fighter is meant to replace, will soon reach the end of their service life, he warned.

"We've been involved in a 15-year procurement process and all of the information we have from our aerospace industry, from our National Defence officials is that these costs are well within our estimates and well on track."

Under the arrangement with Washington, allies participating in the F-35 program gather annually to list the number of aircraft they intend to buy in any year. The Pentagon then negotiates the price with aircraft-maker Lockheed Martin.

In theory, the more aircraft that are built, the lower the unit cost.

The agreement signed by Ottawa last summer binds Canada with its allies. If one country decides to pull out or not purchase in a particular year, as Turkey has signalled it will do, the cost per aircraft goes up for the countries remaining in the pool.

The F-35 program has seen massive cost overruns, which have alarmed lawmakers in the U.S. The Pentagon's program is estimated to cost $386 billion, almost double what was initially proposed.

The Harper government has fought a pitched battle with the opposition parties and the parliamentary budget officer over its figures. When the purchase of 65 stealth fighters was first announced, the Conservatives said the price tag was $9 billion for the aircraft and up to $7 billion more for 20 years' worth of maintenance.

Kevin Page, the parliamentary budget officer, questioned that math in a recent scathing report, which pointed out National Defence had not done its own independent analysis of the numbers provided by Lockheed Martin.

[gars]

Originally Posted by tool001

for amount of air combat canadian air forces see, i dont see the need to get F-35. but i guess thats a whole different argument. canada is needed in manily for more logistical support type of role.

last combat missions were flown in 1991 iraq, and now in libiya. u dont spend money on a prized stallion if u dont plan to have him race often..

meanwhile rest of the military/navy is using 1970-80 equipment.

Actually - the last combat missions for the RCAF was in Kosovo - which wasn't that long ago (12 years ago).

And I'm tired of that excuse. The Canadian Forces - the RCAF is not meant to be a logistical support force. We're not there just to support other countries in times of conflict.

The military is undergoing an overhaul anyways. The Army has received "new" tanks, not sure about the Navy though.

[JD¹³]

Originally Posted by tool001

last combat missions were flown in 1991 iraq, and now in libiya. u dont spend money on a prized stallion if u dont plan to have him race often..

Canada did 10% of all air strikes in the Balkans in the late 90's, totaling 588 bombing missions. One of the reasons behind the purchase of the F35 is our growing reputation as a military world leader, not in size but in quality. We want to continue this trend and participate in more NATO and UN Security Council missions such as we are in Libya right now.

[tool001]

working in the healthcare industry and seeing the cuts to services,,, i rather have that money go to projects in canada.

kosovo -12 years ago and now libya. I STAND CORRECTED, and thanks for making my point.


military world leader ? pulling out of afghanistan when the job is half complete?

[gars]

Originally Posted by tool001

working in the healthcare industry and seeing the cuts to services,,, i rather have that money go to projects in canada.

We can't live in a shell and only think of ourselves. Every country is connected through the world economy.

Look at Libya, and how much gas has gone up because of the conflict there. That drives all prices up here, from transportation, to food.

Having worked closely with the military for a number of years, I can tell you that they've received cuts as well.

[tool001]

Originally Posted by gars

We can't live in a shell and only think of ourselves. Every country is connected through the world economy.

Look at Libya, and how much gas has gone up because of the conflict there. That drives all prices up here, from transportation, to food.

Having worked closely with the military for a number of years, I can tell you that they've received cuts as well.

what happened in somalia? rwanda ? when u want to police the world, u cant be selective, maybe we should go into quatar, saudi arabia aswell.

prices went up again when US/NATO intervened. they were sliding back down after Gadafi took back control of some key towns.

and PS> i did serve in the reserves for 2 years

[RRxtar]

what happens when russia stakes a claim to the canadian arctic and we dont have any way of muscling them out?

[roastpuff]

Originally Posted by tool001

^ eurofighter/rafale overkill? when they cost less than F-35... lol

If we are paying about $70 million for F-35... that is indeed less than what Rafale/Eurofighter flyaway cost is. These are all quoted from Wikipedia. Who knows what the true cost of the F-35 is? I can't believe that it will cost $150 million.

Eurofighter:

Unit cost €90 million (system cost Tranche 3A)

Rafale:

Unit cost Rafale C: €64 million, US$82.3 million (flyaway cost, 2008)

[tool001]

Originally Posted by RRxtar

what happens when russia stakes a claim to the canadian arctic and we dont have any way of muscling them out?

do u really think F-35 would be able to muscle Russia???
for arctic we need navy subs/destoryers, not airforce.

and PS. US ,supplier of the F-35 is also laying claim to canadian arctic.


that said, this is going way off topic.

[RRxtar]

simply flying fighters over the arctic to escort out russian planes in canadian airspace which we have continually done for years, is muscling them out.

[vitaminG]

The service life of this plane is going to be about 40 YEARS like 2050s and who knows whats gonna happen then, Canada could be fighting all kinds of wars by then.

By then my future kids or even grandkids could be fighting china or russia or fucking aliens for all i konw and I sure as hell would want them to have the best jets not the slightly cheaper and shittier ones we cheaped out on 40 years ago.

[Expresso]

Maybe tool001 would feel better if Chengdu put a bid for us to buy the J20s. I bet you they will sell it super cheap!

[Meowjin]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...xon?CMP=twt_gu

harper canadian nixon (think watergate)

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/p...rom-media?bn=1

harper 5 questions a day lol

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Ste...394/story.html

harper refuses to explain limits on media questions

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1226030310248

I like this line

Edmund Burke noted that all that was necessary for evil to triumph was for good men to do nothing. Canadians are certainly good and worthy folks, but they suffer an excess of civil obedience, politeness and lack of civic rage that could be harnessed to combat political atrophy. At a time when Arabs risk life and limb for political freedoms, Canadians seem largely apathetic about the erosion of their democracy.

Following rulings by Speaker Peter Milliken, for the first time in Canadian history, the government and a minister have been found to be in contempt of parliament for withholding information and misleading the house.

The Integrity Commissioner was so inept that she failed to uphold a single one of more than 200 whistle-blowing complaints.

Forced out of office by the ensuing public outcry, she was awarded a $C500,000 severance package on condition that neither she nor the government talk about it.

That is, a public servant paid by the taxpayer was financially gagged by yet more taxpayer money to stop taxpayers finding out what was going on.

don't be fooled guys! Don't make the same mistake the USA did with bush.

"But the economy is good"