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-   Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events (https://www.revscene.net/forums/vancouver-off-topic-current-events_50/)
-   -   The cost to travel across the new Port Mann Bridge (https://www.revscene.net/forums/660025-cost-travel-across-new-port-mann-bridge.html)

dinosaur 12-22-2011 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber (Post 7734978)
Oh god, I hope the idea gains some support and is seriously considered..

A project like that would be so unique, so amazing, it would help to redefine the image of Vancouver and continue what the olympics created.

Am I the only one who would love to see this happen?
yes. ;)

Great68 12-22-2011 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber (Post 7734930)
Turning the old bridge into a park would be amazing, there's nothing else even remotely like that in the world.

Leaving up the old bridge for vehicle use isn't an option, it costs to much to maintain the dilapidated structure.
Even as a park, the old Port Mann would have maintenance costs.

It's still a structure, that has to be inspected/maintained/repaired at regular intervals. You don't exactly want it collapsing with a bunch of park dwellers on it.

Great68 12-22-2011 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach (Post 7734941)
The Golden Ears is also tolled. So the congestion will likely shift towards the aging Patullo bridge and the Alex Fraser.

Kev
I'm thinking more of the people who live in langley and work in the tri-cities. The Patullo or Alex Fraser for them would be a LONG way out of their way, and definately more than the toll is worth.

MindBomber 12-22-2011 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinosaur (Post 7735000)
yes. ;)
haha I was wondering, because RS is a fairly conservative forum, whereas myself and my friends are primarily very left wing environmentalist types. Interesting to hear the differing perspectives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great68 (Post 7735019)
Even as a park, the old Port Mann would have maintenance costs.

It's still a structure, that has to be inspected/maintained/repaired at regular intervals. You don't exactly want it collapsing with a bunch of park dwellers on it.
Yes, I understand that.

The weight load would be much lower than the bridge was designed to hold however, so I assume the maintenance costs would be minimal, primarily just managing the affects of weather.

wasabisashimi 12-22-2011 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy (Post 7734866)
Ever stop to calculate how much gas you waste in the half-hour-long dead-crawl up to the bridge either way? Might wanna see how much smooth traffic flow will save before you get all self-righteous. What's your time worth?


Lotta people seem to think that. I've never seen anyone point out explicitly where this is stated.


This will probably come as a surprise to you, but... ferries run on petroleum-based fuel. Which has also increased in price. Think of how much more it costs you to fill your car than a few years ago... then imagine how much more it costs them to run those things.


Okay, time to trot out a real-life example again.

We live in Pitt Meadows. My wife works in Langley. Her commute via the Port Mann was over an hour each way, and our little 4-cylinder Jeep Patriot burned a quarter tank of gas *per day* for this 37km trip. Now with the Golden Ears Bridge, she's to and from work in 20-25 minutes and goes through a quarter tank of gas *per week* for a 15km trip (that's right: half the distance, uses 1/5 the gas... just to give an idea of how much gas you waste idling in traffic).

So let's do the math, assuming gas is $1/liter (as it was when she started this job, plus it makes the math easier). 50l tank = $50. 1/4 tank per day = $12.50 per day, or $62.50 per week.

At 1/4 tank per week, that's $12.50 per week. Add $2.85 toll, twice per day, that's $5.70 per day, or $39.90 per week, for a total of $52.40 per week.

So the toll option, with smooth-flowing traffic rather than utter gridlock, is saving $10/week, and that's with a fairly fuel-efficient small SUV. Increase savings accordingly if you drive a bigger SUV or riced-up car.

You can't put a price on getting home and not being completely stressed out and feeling physically drained from that hour+ fighting traffic.

Will everyone see the same kind of savings? Probably not. But before you get all pissed off about it, you might want to look at how all this is going to help your regular travel (not just the bridge, but all the upgrades).


So, take the Alex Fraser instead, and stop fucking whining.
I totally understand what you are saying , the savings are worth it for sure. But I am skeptical about the new bridge really reduces traffic jam and rush hours.

There are traffic no matter where you go, which city you are in. I just hope we dont pay the toll and still sit in traffic, unless you take a bus express lane over that bridge.

I dont know whats with bridges that we see most cars broken down, slower drivers, or accident frequency.

If I was mayor, I would 1) not send fucking 4 cop cars for a 2 car fender bender. 2) not send a fire truck for a small accident.

Been to HK and TW and japan, these guys really clean up accident fast unlike north america where we take our time, chat alittle to the guy who just T-Boned you, talk about his wife, and grandma..etc

Great68 12-22-2011 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber (Post 7735029)


Yes, I understand that.

The weight load would be much lower than the bridge was designed to hold however, so I assume the maintenance costs would be minimal, primarily just managing the affects of weather.
The costs would definately NOT be minimal. In fact, I'll bet they would not be much less than they are now. Structural assessments and maintenance would have to be performed at the same intervals, so that wouldn't change. Metal rusts the same whether there's 1000 cars, or a park on top, so cleaning & painting would still be in the budget.

It's hard to say how much lower the weight load is, sure you remove cars but then you'd have to truck in a lot of dirt to make it any sort of "greenway". Dirt's not exactly light.

It's not exactly "Well no more cars, we can check up on it every 20 years from here on out".

No doubt, it would be a REALLY expensive park.

CorneringArtist 12-22-2011 12:43 PM
If I recall, there was another thread about a shitty intersection at either Highway 10 or 91, and how it causes that section to get congested as hell. People wanting to avoid the tolls would probably make that a lot worse. However making the old bridge a park is a pretty pragmatic idea.
Posted via RS Mobile

Iceman-19 12-22-2011 12:48 PM
Has anyone ever considered how many people that are avoiding the golden ears right now because the port Mann is still free? When the new bridge opens and is also tolled, they are paying to go a longer way, they will obviously start using the golden ears, which means less traffic on hwy 1.
Posted via RS Mobile

dinosaur 12-22-2011 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber (Post 7735029)
haha I was wondering, because RS is a fairly conservative forum, whereas myself and my friends are primarily very left wing environmentalist types. Interesting to hear the differing perspectives.
I am fairly left-winged liberal as well and am always a proponent of more parks and green space, environmental sustainability, etc.

My issue with turn it into a park is accessibility. I do not see people parking and walking over it. It is literally in the middle of little bit of a "waste-land". You have commercial/industrial on one side, and a commercial and a little residential on the other. It is also fairly high and a little long.

If this bridge was in an area of pedestrian foot traffic or another park, I'd be all for it. Should they decide to replace a bridge like Grandville or Cambie, I think it would be fantastic to turn it into a park. The PM isn't even really accessible by transit. The location of where it is, is my issue.

I just don't see people utilizing as a park. But then again...we need somewhere to stuff the Occupy Van people....

MindBomber 12-22-2011 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great68 (Post 7735039)
The costs would definately NOT be minimal. In fact, I'll bet they would not be much less than they are now. Structural assessments and maintenance would have to be performed at the same intervals, so that wouldn't change. Metal rusts the same whether there's 1000 cars, or a park on top, so cleaning & painting would still be in the budget.

It's hard to say how much lower the weight load is, sure you remove cars but then you'd have to truck in a lot of dirt to make it any sort of "greenway". Dirt's not exactly light.

It's not exactly "Well no more cars, we can check up on it every 20 years from here on out".

No doubt, it would be a REALLY expensive park.
Oh, I understand that structural assessments would still need to be performed at the same frequency, what I meant was the costs would be minimal in comparison to present.

Yes, metal and fittings corrode at the same rate, regardless of weight load. I think that weight load would ultimately be much less though, because the surface could be stripped of asphalt and replaced by a relatively light weight substitute, like the materials used for green roofs. That would alleviate some of the structural wear and reduce the cost from present substantially, because of the reduced metal fatigue, I know absolutely nothing about what's involved in maintaining a bridge though.

I agree, no doubt, it would become an expensive project, I suppose it's just a fantasy to think it could be feasible or even logical. A cool fantasy, but a fantasy none the less. I have a thing for architecture, which is probably why I got excited thinking about the possibilities. Returning to the real world now.

dinosaur 12-22-2011 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman-19 (Post 7735052)
Has anyone ever considered how many people that are avoiding the golden ears right now because the port Mann is still free? When the new bridge opens and is also tolled, they are paying to go a longer way, they will obviously start using the golden ears, which means less traffic on hwy 1.
Posted via RS Mobile
I don't think a lot of people avoid the GE due to the toll per se.

I think the problem is, that a lot of people do not live in areas that require its use.

I live in New West and a dozen or so times a year, I need to go out to Langley, Abbotsford, etc...I will use the GE bridge and pay the toll when the PM is fuck, purely out of convenience or to avoid idling i traffic for an hour.

The time from Abby to New West is almost exactly 1 hour without traffic, regardless of the bridge I take. I am not sure a lot of people know that. I listen to the traffic report and make the call when I hit 200th.

Its a nice bridge, fast, but drops you off a little in the middle of nowhere. But, do I mind paying for the convenience? no because it is an choice. Idle in traffic for free or pay $4 or so to drive around it. I like having the choice.

What I don't like, is all those people who now won't have the choice. I use to live in Pitt Meadows (but moved just before the bridge) and was stoked to have the GE. To think that I could get to Langley/Surrey in 10 mins was awesome....but if I didn't want to pay, I could take the PM.

And let face it....the argument that if you don't want to pay the toll, take AF, is kinda BS.

Gridlock 12-22-2011 01:04 PM
I get that we need to keep up with infrastructure, but the part that pissed me off was covered a few pages ago..oh, we were going to twin the bridge, but the guys said, for an extra billion, we could just replace the whole thing.

OK! Sounds like a gov't plan to me! Build twice the bridge for twice the price!

From a person that used to work in logistics, we do need this. Shipping chooses the path of the least resistance. If I can ship my product to Canada and it takes forever to get it shipped through, or Seattle and its where it needs to be in 24 hours, I'm going to choose Seattle.

Ikea already made that distinction. The company I worked for handled their distribution. They made the decision to ship it all state side and bring what they needed for Canada across the border.

Bringing it across the border has some of its own issues, but when you look at comparing that to the costs of running your own distribution hub in Vancouver, with a 3rd Party Logistics Provider that's inept, and it doesn't seem so bad.

If more companies made that decision, then Vancouver just gets by-passed completely.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some type of grant to increase the amount of rail out of Vancouver. That will be their next major bottle neck, logistics wise.

The other part that pisses me off on finances is the fact that the truck highway out of Deltaport is free. Here we have a highway built solely for trucking, where you have an avenue of passing off costs to consumers and its free.

Also, they have to toll everything else. No one will use the Goldenears until its no longer a premium route. That's why as soon as the POrt Mann is done, Kiewit will move on down to the Patullo-because the moment the POrt Mann opens, New West is FUCKED for traffic.

dinosaur 12-22-2011 01:11 PM
New West is already fucked for traffic...

that's why they are putting in all those god-damned "traffic calming" measures and why I can no longer turn up any street on Stewardson....to fuck us even more.

Anjew 12-22-2011 02:28 PM
that estimated time saved is easily worth the cost.

if i could save 30minutes of being on the road commuting, i would GLADLY PAY 3 dollars. i have no doubts businesses would gladly pay the 9dollars as well. everyone likes to bitch now because we don't see the benefits yet. with most people, its all about the now.

murd0c 12-22-2011 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anjew (Post 7735146)
that estimated time saved is easily worth the cost.

if i could save 30minutes of being on the road commuting, i would GLADLY PAY 3 dollars. i have no doubts businesses would gladly pay the 9dollars as well. everyone likes to bitch now because we don't see the benefits yet. with most people, its all about the now.
Right now we are only looking at it more money to pay to cross a bridge plain and simple.

wasabisashimi 12-22-2011 02:43 PM
its actually 6 dollars if you do round trip.

How long is the toll implemented? 40 yrs?

StylinRed 12-22-2011 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber (Post 7734978)
Oh god, I hope the idea gains some support and is seriously considered..

A project like that would be so unique, so amazing, it would help to redefine the image of Vancouver and continue what the olympics created.

Am I the only one who would love to see this happen?
that would be very cool but you know what they should do? keep the old bridge for commercial/emergency vehicles to lessen congestion they should have done that with the old golden ears bridges too relegate 1 lane on the hwy for them too

achiam 12-22-2011 03:12 PM
I lived in London, UK for 5 years, and think Vancouver needs to stop promoting cars/roads and seriously move towards mass rail. In Central London there's the huge tube network that goes everywhere, but they also have regular commuter trains where people living 1-2 hours outside regularly hop on, sleep, and arrive smack in the central area to go to work.
If they had a regular commuter train from Chilliwack that ended in Downtown with stops along the way I think it'd be a sure hit.

belka 12-22-2011 03:26 PM
Do out of province plates still get billed?

Soundy 12-22-2011 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber (Post 7734978)
Oh god, I hope the idea gains some support and is seriously considered..

A project like that would be so unique, so amazing, it would help to redefine the image of Vancouver and continue what the olympics created.

Am I the only one who would love to see this happen?
It would be great... and the costs to keep it up would be insane. The bridge will still deteriorate over time, still need repairs, still need cleaning and repainting... where do you propose that money come from? If they added a whole 10 cents to the toll to pay for it, this place would really go ballistic.

wasabisashimi 12-22-2011 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by achiam (Post 7735203)
I lived in London, UK for 5 years, and think Vancouver needs to stop promoting cars/roads and seriously move towards mass rail. In Central London there's the huge tube network that goes everywhere, but they also have regular commuter trains where people living 1-2 hours outside regularly hop on, sleep, and arrive smack in the central area to go to work.
If they had a regular commuter train from Chilliwack that ended in Downtown with stops along the way I think it'd be a sure hit.
Sounds great except people in chilliwack loves their trucks...:concentrate:

Soundy 12-22-2011 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anjew (Post 7735146)
that estimated time saved is easily worth the cost.

if i could save 30minutes of being on the road commuting, i would GLADLY PAY 3 dollars. i have no doubts businesses would gladly pay the 9dollars as well.
This is what people are forgetting when they say "oooo $9 is going to hurt the truckers!" - this is a business where time really is money. If they can get to port a half hour sooner to get unloaded, reloaded, and back on the road... that's gotta be worth a sawbuck, not even counting the extra fuel burned sitting in traffic.

I drive a company van with a company-provided transponder and they cover the tolls... I pointed out once to my boss, at my hourly pay, if taking the GEB saves me only 7 minutes, then it pays for itself for them.


Quote:
everyone likes to bitch now because we don't see the benefits yet. with most people, its all about the now.
Welcome to RS.

Funny thing is, the people here bitching about the cost to maintain and improve the roads are probably the ones to whine the most their condition in the first place.

firebird79_00 12-22-2011 04:26 PM
I still owe them money, im not fucking paying it. They cant fucking track every single person down.

skyxx 12-22-2011 05:39 PM
^ They can if they REALLY want to.

dinosaur 12-22-2011 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird79_00 (Post 7735292)
I still owe them money, im not fucking paying it. They cant fucking track every single person down.
good luck renewing you car insurance.


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