REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Vancouver Auto Chat

Vancouver Auto Chat 2016 VAC Community Head Moderator: Raid3n

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-27-2012, 09:04 AM   #101
RS.net, helping ugly ppl have sex since 2001
 
Great68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Victoria
Posts: 8,909
Thanked 2,985 Times in 1,023 Posts
It's no secret that I was never happy with this impoundment law, in that it's application is too black & white, as if politicians want people thinking that at 40.1km/h over any limit, anywhere in the province your car is going to spontaneously burst into flames.

There are situations & conditions which widely vary the level of risk both to the driver of the vehicle and the general public associated with speeding. You can't tell me that speeding on the highway somewhere in buttfuck nowhere BC is the same as speeding on Highway 1 through the construction zone.

And that's just it, the Highway 1 construction zone is an incredibly dangerous place to speed and the risk to the public is huge, so I am actually glad these guys were caught and the book thrown at them.

I'll never be happy about the civil forfeiture bullshit though.
Advertisement
__________________
1968 Mustang Coupe
2008.5 Mazdaspeed 3
1997 GMC Sonoma ZR2
2014 F150 5.0L XTR 4x4

A vehicle for all occasions
Great68 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 07-27-2012, 10:58 AM   #102
First to fail !SG evar! Now i have yellow fever...
 
Redlines_Daily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,482
Thanked 2,431 Times in 475 Posts
although I really hate this excessive speeding = vehicle impoundment law, I have to say that it is a successful deterrent, at least for me.

Last summer, I was driving through the tunnel on HWY1 towards north van, traffic was flowing around 90, and I gave it a little gas to hear my exhaust in the tunnel. Was doing around 120ish when I got pulled over by a speed trap. I guess it was a construction zone(though I don't remember seeing any construction there for months), so the speed limit at the time was 70km/hr. I got a $483 fine, impound, points, tow fee etc..the whole thing ended up costing me over $2000 when all said and done. Now, I still feel like I was driving in a safe manner (a little speed burst in a straight line that lasted a few seconds) but I'm definitely not going to risk getting a fine like that anymore. Ever since then I rarely speed(still speed up a bit to pass slow moving traffic and such). So, I guess the moral of the story is that the punishment is very harsh but it is effective!
Redlines_Daily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 02:59 PM   #103
Need to Seek Professional Help
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 604
Posts: 1,095
Thanked 508 Times in 91 Posts
To add to those who suggested building a race track: IMO just having a race track will not help (ie. Mission). If they were going to make one (chances approach 0%) to reduce street racing, it would have to be close AND inexpensive in order to be effective. And with land in the GVRD costing so much, having something close would not be cheap...and something "cheap" would be far (ie. Mission, although it's not cheap). However, I'm sure most of us wouldn't mind driving out to Mission if the track were "better". Also, they'd have to do some good advertising/marketing to make it work.

However, another option would be to make a drag strip close by which should cost less than a road course. I think this would be an awesome idea since it could be closer in proximity and cost less. And most of these "street races" are just kids doing pulls on each other.

With regards to the harsh punishment, I agree with what Redlines_Daily said. It's harsh but I'm sure it's effective. However, I also agree that accelerating to ~120-140 in the tunnel <<<<<<<<<<<<< driving at 120 in the construction zone. Now if only policy makers/enforcers would smarten the fuck up.
__________________
2008 NBP CSX-S
Hondata | Hasport | TWM | Skunk2 | Invidia | Redshift/Koni | Progress | SPC | Enkei | Blox

For Sale:

BNIB Acupuncture Wallet PM me for details

Google / LG Nexus 4
crazyazn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 03:17 PM   #104
14 dolla balla aint got nothing on me!
 
ree666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: richmond
Posts: 655
Thanked 894 Times in 157 Posts
that 100 acres near silvercity richmond on steveston would make a nice race track
ree666 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 07-27-2012, 04:37 PM   #105
Banned (ABWS)?
 
AzNightmare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 17,762
Thanked 3,132 Times in 1,334 Posts
Building a race track would be pointless. You think these type of people are going to invest the time to go to a track? Plus it costs money. Why pay to speed if you can do it for free on the streets or highway.

These people just want to go fast when they see the opportunity, or go spirit driving/cruising.
It would seem excessive to go to a track just to do that, especially when trying to get fast lap times isn't the priority.
AzNightmare is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 07-27-2012, 05:19 PM   #106
Need to Seek Professional Help
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 604
Posts: 1,095
Thanked 508 Times in 91 Posts
Am I the only one who would go track with fun and not lap time as priority? I suppose you could argue that we see different target markets for this hypothetical road course...but still, if there were a one closer and much cheaper than Mission I'm sure many more people would go more often since it would actually be conveniently accessible & financially viable.

The reason why I don't is because of the high cost associated with it. Over on the east, track days are like $100 per as opposed to the $200+ here.
__________________
2008 NBP CSX-S
Hondata | Hasport | TWM | Skunk2 | Invidia | Redshift/Koni | Progress | SPC | Enkei | Blox

For Sale:

BNIB Acupuncture Wallet PM me for details

Google / LG Nexus 4
crazyazn is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 07-27-2012, 05:43 PM   #107
Revscene.net has a homepage?!
 
belaud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Richmond
Posts: 1,287
Thanked 2,093 Times in 452 Posts
What about the Garden City land reserve? Hows that coming along?
__________________
★ ☆ ★ TOP LINER ★ ☆ ★
VARIS STI "GOODSMILE"
belaud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2012, 05:44 PM   #108
WOAH! i think Vtec just kicked in!
 
|<e|_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,646
Thanked 306 Times in 52 Posts
didn't seem like much of a street race.... The 4 were definitely going fast and the road conditions may not have been suitable for it...but civil forfeiture seems a bit extreme for what they were doing...

I can see civil forfeiture in this "street race" seem more legit

__________________
2016 Lexus es300h - Daily
2002 Honda S2000 - Track Car
2016 Porsche GT4 - Garage Queen
2004 Subaru STI - Winter beast
|<e|_ is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 07-27-2012, 06:14 PM   #109
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
SpeedStars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,770
Thanked 4,156 Times in 973 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by |<e|_ View Post
didn't seem like much of a street race.... The 4 were definitely going fast and the road conditions may not have been suitable for it...but civil forfeiture seems a bit extreme for what they were doing...

I can see civil forfeiture in this "street race" seem more legit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgILy...MEQ_wK5Ft09jew
Is this in Hong Kong? Their cars are probably scrapped or impounded by now anyways
SpeedStars is offline   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 07-27-2012, 08:47 PM   #110
Even when im right, revscene.net is still right!
 
Yodamaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burnaby, BC
Posts: 1,356
Thanked 1,532 Times in 479 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedStars View Post
Is this in Hong Kong? Their cars are probably scrapped or impounded by now anyways
At first I thought it might be in Japan, the Shuto Expressway looks a lot like the type of highways they were racing on, then I looked at the plates.
Yodamaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 02:03 AM   #111
Proud to be called a RS Regular!
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: van
Posts: 125
Thanked 21 Times in 13 Posts
man fuck these scrubs...
heero78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 05:59 AM   #112
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNightmare View Post
Building a race track would be pointless. You think these type of people are going to invest the time to go to a track? Plus it costs money. Why pay to speed if you can do it for free on the streets or highway.
When you're driving a $60,000+ car, citing cost as an excuse NOT to use the track is fucking weak... especially considering the cost of a day at the track is roughly the same as the CHEAPEST speeding ticket you could get on the street.

Unfortunately, building tracks won't overcome the real problem: these idiots are just plain lazy, selfish, and/or ignorant.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"
Soundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 07:49 AM   #113
Ready to be Man handled by RS!
 
dangonay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burnaby
Posts: 1,798
Thanked 1,502 Times in 506 Posts
Nobody will use a track. Just come out to any track day or autocross and watch the guys in their 911's show up all cocky and proceed to get beat by some guy in a Miata or Mustang because they don't know how to drive. It happens all the time - they show up once to try things out and never come back.

At the track the social pecking order is defined by how good you can drive. On the street it's defined by the value of your car. This is why building a track will do nothing - the people driving high-end cars won't get the attention they think they deserve at the track.

Well, most of them. Believe it or not, there are people who drive 911's and M3's who actually know how to drive. But they are a very small minority.
dangonay is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 07-28-2012, 08:49 AM   #114
RS controls my life!
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: N/A
Posts: 735
Thanked 867 Times in 240 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedStars View Post
Is this in Hong Kong? Their cars are probably scrapped or impounded by now anyways

That's how their street race ended ^
AstulzerRZD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 08:58 AM   #115
Ready to be Man handled by RS!
 
dangonay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burnaby
Posts: 1,798
Thanked 1,502 Times in 506 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.C View Post
No other way to say it, but you didn't think this through or you're the one who missed the physics classes. I've done both, and let me tell you, the 7 is WAY better at maneuvering than a whale of a car with a much higher centre of gravity and much shittier brakes. Have you even *tried* panic braking a Chevy Van from 120, and a 7-series from 160? Could be just perception, but I felt way more in control in the 7.
Sigh. We go through this discussion every time this topic comes up.

I don't have time to go through everything again as it just doesn't seem to sink in with anybody. But here's a quick one for you:

This vehicle pictured below is a 2003 Utilimaster Food Truck. Did you know this vehicle can stop shorter from 60mph than a 750i or Porsche GT3 can from only 80mph?

Imagine that - a high performance car like the GT3 (which is well known for its superior braking abilitiy) can't even drive 20mph faster than this POS truck and stop in as short a distance. Oh, the GT3 will sure "feel" a lot better doing it, but when you're in a panic situation (avoiding an accident) people aren't thinking about how "good" their car feels.



And if you're interested in the actual test results, here they are:

Food Truck 60-0: 164 feet.
Porsche GT3 80-0: 190 feet.
BMW 750i 80-0: 210 feet.
dangonay is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 07-28-2012, 09:20 AM   #116
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangonay View Post
Nobody will use a track. Just come out to any track day or autocross and watch the guys in their 911's show up all cocky and proceed to get beat by some guy in a Miata or Mustang because they don't know how to drive. It happens all the time - they show up once to try things out and never come back.

At the track the social pecking order is defined by how good you can drive. On the street it's defined by the value of your car. This is why building a track will do nothing - the people driving high-end cars won't get the attention they think they deserve at the track.
To summarize: lazy, selfish, and/or ignorant.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"
Soundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 11:53 AM   #117
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
SpeedStars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,770
Thanked 4,156 Times in 973 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstulzerRZD View Post
20090713

That's how their street race ended ^
Looks like they got what they deserved
SpeedStars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 01:02 PM   #118
Even when im right, revscene.net is still right!
 
Mr.C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Richmond
Posts: 1,355
Thanked 1,776 Times in 444 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangonay View Post
Sigh. We go through this discussion every time this topic comes up.

I don't have time to go through everything again as it just doesn't seem to sink in with anybody. But here's a quick one for you:

This vehicle pictured below is a 2003 Utilimaster Food Truck. Did you know this vehicle can stop shorter from 60mph than a 750i or Porsche GT3 can from only 80mph?

Imagine that - a high performance car like the GT3 (which is well known for its superior braking abilitiy) can't even drive 20mph faster than this POS truck and stop in as short a distance. Oh, the GT3 will sure "feel" a lot better doing it, but when you're in a panic situation (avoiding an accident) people aren't thinking about how "good" their car feels.



And if you're interested in the actual test results, here they are:

Food Truck 60-0: 164 feet.
Porsche GT3 80-0: 190 feet.
BMW 750i 80-0: 210 feet.
I stand corrected.
__________________
Have an E38? Check out E38Registry.org!

http://www.e38registry.org/
Mr.C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 03:39 PM   #119
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangonay View Post
Imagine that - a high performance car like the GT3 (which is well known for its superior braking abilitiy) can't even drive 20mph faster than this POS truck and stop in as short a distance. Oh, the GT3 will sure "feel" a lot better doing it, but when you're in a panic situation (avoiding an accident) people aren't thinking about how "good" their car feels.
Simple physics: momentum (aka mass * velocity), vs. friction of the tires on the road. Physics don't care how much you spent on the car or how "cool" the body style is or what badge is on it.

The one thing that will adversely affect stopping is if your tires lose friction with the road... the ONLY thing the fancy car offers you over the van is the possibility to maintain friction under harsher conditions, through ABS, and possibly a better-designed suspension. But give the van ABS, and give both of them equally-skilled drivers, and mass and velocity being equal, the sports car has practically ZERO advantage.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"
Soundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 05:06 PM   #120
First to fail !SG evar! Now i have yellow fever...
 
Redlines_Daily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,482
Thanked 2,431 Times in 475 Posts
physics > perception, I think everyone should agree on that. However, I just can't get behind the argument stated in the last few posts; here's why:

1) I also read that Road&Track article where they tested the food truck and I remember that the thing was so slow that they couldn't get it past 37mph on their test track, so the 164ft 60-0 braking distance was merely an estimation. Now, I'm assuming the actual distance would change under real load and friction..maybe the estimation is accurate maybe it's not, I really don't know.

2) I suppose my first point isn't all that important as I'm sure someone will find another test of a minivan braking from 60 with similar results or something. Anyway, in all my years of driving I have seen many highway accidents in person and of course watched my fair share of horrible crashes on youtube. In all those crashes there are very few(if any?) crashes where I saw a driver emergency brake to a full stop from a highway speed to prevent an accident. In almost every case the driver will brake hard to a reasonable speed (say 50ish km/hr?) then slowly pull over to the side or maneuver around the crash. I would say the distance/time taken to go from (X)km/hr-50 would be a better test of a vehicles ability to avoid a crash, and I'm willing to bet these high-end sports cars would demolish their ordinary counterparts as friction/skidding wouldn't come into play as much.

I'm certainly no expert, just my $.02
Redlines_Daily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 05:27 PM   #121
2x Variable Nockenwellen Steuerung
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: N49.2 W122.1
Posts: 6,176
Thanked 1,174 Times in 704 Posts
Case in point on why driving in packs is dangerous.. especially at high speeds:

Japan Ferrari crash: $4 million smash takes out nine supercars... and a Toyota Prius | Driving | National Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by synchro77 View Post
and the logic behind that is...? if they are all going 160 and not weaving in/out of traffic I don't see how it's more dangerous than one car doing it...
godwin is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 07-28-2012, 05:30 PM   #122
2x Variable Nockenwellen Steuerung
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: N49.2 W122.1
Posts: 6,176
Thanked 1,174 Times in 704 Posts
Actually the driver in the other car got sent to jail.. the judgement is here:

LEAVING SCENE - R. v. Hughes, motor vehicle accident on Highway 1 in which four persons were killed; COURT OF APPEAL FOR BRITISH COLUMBIA

Quote:
Originally Posted by SumAznGuy View Post
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?threadid=311954

Just to help refresh your memory, but the driver was drunk which was a major contributor to the accident, not the excessive speeding though it was the high rate of speed and rapid deceleration that killed the 3 people.
godwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 05:33 PM   #123
I WANT MY 10 YEARS BACK FROM RS.net!
 
Soundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Abbotstan
Posts: 20,721
Thanked 12,136 Times in 3,361 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlines_Daily View Post
physics > perception, I think everyone should agree on that. However, I just can't get behind the argument stated in the last few posts; here's why:

1) I also read that Road&Track article where they tested the food truck and I remember that the thing was so slow that they couldn't get it past 37mph on their test track, so the 164ft 60-0 braking distance was merely an estimation. Now, I'm assuming the actual distance would change under real load and friction..maybe the estimation is accurate maybe it's not, I really don't know.
If you have the coefficient of friction of the tire and the asphalt, and know the mass of the vehicle, you can calculate the stopping distance from any given velocity. Naturally this can't take into account things like locking up the brakes, such as a panic stop without ABS, or wheel bounce caused by a poor suspension... but it's very easy to extrapolate a stopping distance in this way.

Quote:
2) I suppose my first point isn't all that important as I'm sure someone will find another test of a minivan braking from 60 with similar results or something. Anyway, in all my years of driving I have seen many highway accidents in person and of course watched my fair share of horrible crashes on youtube. In all those crashes there are very few(if any?) crashes where I saw a driver emergency brake to a full stop from a highway speed to prevent an accident. In almost every case the driver will brake hard to a reasonable speed (say 50ish km/hr?) then slowly pull over to the side or maneuver around the crash. I would say the distance/time taken to go from (X)km/hr-50 would be a better test of a vehicles ability to avoid a crash, and I'm willing to bet these high-end sports cars would demolish their ordinary counterparts as friction/skidding wouldn't come into play as much.

I'm certainly no expert, just my $.02
*FRICTION* is a constant. You can take the same tires, with the same rubber compound, put one set on a van and one on an R8, and as long as you don't lock up the brakes, both will stop in the same distance from the same speed. *SKIDDING* will increase the distance, because it's caused by a loss of fiction... which is what things like ABS and a properly designed suspension will help reduce. It's really only an aid to the unskilled driver, though - the professional driver should never feel his ABS activate.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzira View Post
Does anyone know how many to a signature?
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianrietta View Post
Not a sebberry post goes by where I don't frown and think to myself "so..?"
Soundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2012, 10:34 PM   #124
Ready to be Man handled by RS!
 
dangonay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burnaby
Posts: 1,798
Thanked 1,502 Times in 506 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlines_Daily View Post
physics > perception, I think everyone should agree on that. However, I just can't get behind the argument stated in the last few posts; here's why:

1) I also read that Road&Track article where they tested the food truck and I remember that the thing was so slow that they couldn't get it past 37mph on their test track, so the 164ft 60-0 braking distance was merely an estimation. Now, I'm assuming the actual distance would change under real load and friction..maybe the estimation is accurate maybe it's not, I really don't know.

2) I suppose my first point isn't all that important as I'm sure someone will find another test of a minivan braking from 60 with similar results or something. Anyway, in all my years of driving I have seen many highway accidents in person and of course watched my fair share of horrible crashes on youtube. In all those crashes there are very few(if any?) crashes where I saw a driver emergency brake to a full stop from a highway speed to prevent an accident. In almost every case the driver will brake hard to a reasonable speed (say 50ish km/hr?) then slowly pull over to the side or maneuver around the crash. I would say the distance/time taken to go from (X)km/hr-50 would be a better test of a vehicles ability to avoid a crash, and I'm willing to bet these high-end sports cars would demolish their ordinary counterparts as friction/skidding wouldn't come into play as much.

I'm certainly no expert, just my $.02
Here's another truck for you - a 15,400lb dump truck that takes 160 feet to go from 60-0. Surprisingly, it's shorter than the Food Truck I previously used as an example.

Ford F-650


An easy way to understand this without doing all the math is to look at some Nurburgring lap times. Cars like the Lexus LFA, Corvette ZR1, Dodge Viper ACR and similar are all hovering around 7:20 give or take a couple seconds for an average lap speed of 105.0mph.

Then you have cars like the VW Lupo GTI, Suzuki Swift and a host of other "slow ass 4 bangers" that run right around 9:00 for an average speed of 85.0mph.

Corvertte ZR1: 105 mph
Suzuki Swift: 85 mph

Think about this for a second. A ZR1 being driven at its limits is only able to drive 20mph faster than a shitty Suzuki Swift also driven at the limits. You know, the same type of thing a person avoiding an accident would do - drive the car at its limits.
dangonay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2012, 03:24 AM   #125
Marcosexual Fan Club, CEO
 
Marco911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: US Bush-country
Posts: 7,741
Thanked 822 Times in 284 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundy View Post
When you're driving a $60,000+ car, citing cost as an excuse NOT to use the track is fucking weak... especially considering the cost of a day at the track is roughly the same as the CHEAPEST speeding ticket you could get on the street.

Unfortunately, building tracks won't overcome the real problem: these idiots are just plain lazy, selfish, and/or ignorant.
Autoplan also doesn't cover your car when it's on a track. Any mishap is going to be $$$. That said, I've taken my 911 on a track and it was a lot of fun.
__________________
Poor is the man whose pleasures depend on the permission of another.
Marco911 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net