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Old 09-24-2012, 11:46 PM   #51
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I think it all comes down to transmission route. To come in contact with those bodily fluids from pets/livestock and say 'hey i'm still living' doesn't 100% safeguard you from diseases. Sure it may be fine on your skin, or even if you ingest it...as for example it takes a lot of HIV+ blood ingested to actually infect an healthy individual..but only a slightly bit of intravenous/sexual contact is needed to infect.

You are also forgetting virus mutate and changes strains easily.

It may be a stretch and technical but that's just another argument againist zoophilia.
Strong defense, but still, exposure of humans to domesticated animals bodily fluids occurs at such high frequency and has for such a long time prolonged time period, I really find it hard to believe that if something existed it would have been identified. I also believe, if a virus mutates it would eventually pass to humans without sexual contact for the aforementioned reasons. Bird flu passed to humans, that wasn't sexually transmitted.

Further, if we were to classify risk to humans as a reason to prevent sexual contact, everyone with HIV, Herpes, Hep C, would need to be castrated or somehow prevented from having sex as well. Taking it a bit further, one could argue that to protect humans we should not allow people with genetic diseases to reproduce. I know, that's beginning to stretch things, same train of logic though.

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And where does it end? Some people might find nothing fundamentally wrong with a 40 year old being sexually active with a 10 year old given they are giving consent, why is that any different then? They have more of a say in he matter than any animal would.
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A human ten year old is more mentally complex than a horse, a significant likelihood of mental suffering exists as a result of engaging in sex prior to full mental and sexual maturity.

A horse wants to engage in sex when it reaches sexual maturity, that's it, there's no complex pattern of emotions. Put a 2 year old stallion in front of a mare, the stallion will try to have sex with the mare, and if successful, will not suffer mentally.

I object to suffering, less specifically pain as a whole, and support anything that prevents pain.

Therefore I see fundamental wrong in sex between a 40 and 10 year old human, but not a human and horse.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:01 AM   #52
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Strong defense, but still, exposure of humans to domesticated animals bodily fluids occurs at such high frequency and has for such a long time prolonged time period, I really find it hard to believe that if something existed it would have been identified. I also believe, if a virus mutates it would eventually pass to humans without sexual contact for the aforementioned reasons. Bird flu passed to humans, that wasn't sexually transmitted.

Further, if we were to classify risk to humans as a reason to prevent sexual contact, everyone with HIV, Herpes, Hep C, would need to be castrated or somehow prevented from having sex as well. Taking it a bit further, one could argue that to protect humans we should not allow people with genetic diseases to reproduce. I know, that's beginning to stretch things, same train of logic though.



A human ten year old is more mentally complex than a horse, a significant likelihood of mental suffering exists as a result of engaging in sex prior to full mental and sexual maturity.

A horse wants to engage in sex when it reaches sexual maturity, that's it, there's no complex pattern of emotions. Put a 2 year old stallion in front of a mare, the stallion will try to have sex with the mare, and if successful, will not suffer mentally.

I object to suffering, less specifically pain as a whole, and support anything that prevents pain.

Therefore I see fundamental wrong in sex between a 40 and 10 year old human, but not a human and horse.
Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. If anything this thread opened my eyes a bit, I wasn't aware there were so many people who are pro beastiality, or at least perfectly fine with the concept.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:11 AM   #53
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:33 AM   #54
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:40 AM   #55
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I'm going to have to agree with mindbomber.

im not into bestiality, but the logic behind some of the people in this thread, who are against bestiality, is not... logical.

im only not into it because of personal preference. i like human women.

to be against something, you should not consider how YOU personally feel about it.
because that is totally subjective.

you have to take a look at it from a 3rd view, one that does not include yourself.

if we went to another planet and bestiality was normal and... all fine and dandy.
then what?
they're all wrong? lol.

what if you're a homo, and you went back 300 years, and everyone found out and they stoned you to death.... you're wrong?

or you were a black person.

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So if you had a friend or family member who suddenly told you they are in love with their dog and have been having sex with it, your perception of that person wouldn't change?

What's next, we're going to have people fighting for the right to marry an animal?
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my perception of them would change of course, because i've been brainwashed by societies standards my whole life.

but i would consciously KNOW why i feel the change about them and try to ignore it. i would use my head, over my feelings.

yeah i can totally see people try to marry their animals.

lol, in 150 years, you're gonna see future markymarks argue the same thing against robots. i bet people are gonna start fucking their robots, and fall in love with them.

is that just as wrong? what if the robots looked and acted just like humans.

like those hooker robots in the movie AI
or those androids in the alien series.

is that not any different? LOL...

i read before there are tribes somewhere... where the rite of passage to be a man... is.. the little boys have to suck the elders cock and like, swallow.
but to them its completely normal. everyone does it as a rite of passage.

seems fucked to me. but i know from their PERSPECTIVE it's completely normal. and IM the alien.

its like why Chinese people think westerners are dirty as fuck for blowing their noses into a handkerchief and sticking it back in their pockets. where it's warm and bacteria will thrive. they think its totally barbaric and disguising.

and white people think Chinese people are fucking disguising because they spit on the streets and "litter" their spit everywhere. but to the chinese it's cleaner and more logical than spitting or blowing their noses into some fabric and sticking it back into their pockets.

whos right? lol, everyone is RIGHT in their OWN minds.
but the truth is none of them are right, and none of them are wrong.

the objective truth is, bestiality is not wrong if both parties enjoy it.

the subjective truth is, whatever you want to think.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:50 AM   #56
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Oh it must be nice to have to suck an elders cock and swallow as a right of passage I'm sure a completely normal person thought that one up.

Anyways this threads gotten a little twisted, I'm not here to change anyone's mind on the matter.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:30 AM   #57
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i'm not here to change anyone's mind either. I'm just here to make them realise what objective vs subjective is.

you may think some sick and twister person thought that up.



but then what about the society you grew up in?

what kind of sick and twisted society promotes narcissism to the point where people destroy themselves with plastic surgery?

what kind of society has people keying cars and destroying other peoples property for no reason?

why are most westerns fucking ignorant retarded assholes?

why is it if i leave my laptop in the wide open in a public place, and i go to the washroom, the likely hood of it being stolen is like 1000%?

why is it most people have no shame, and "don't give a fuck about what other people think" and go around doing whatever pleases them with no regard to the general population?

why are westerners so selfish?

whos the sick mother fucker that thought of naked bike rides and all that shit? who the fuck rides bikes naked and lets public watch them? riding around while under-aged children can watch them? who the fuck is that sick and twisted that they would use this as a way to promote themselves?

the gay parade? more like the naked people parade. what the fuck?

what kind of fucking society looks down on virgins?

who the fuck thought up of using forks and knives at the dining table? weapons at the dining table, what a barbaric society.

why do i see westerns wrestle each other on the ground, around such places such as the dining area, or in the public. and do other stupid things that cause distress to the people around them, yet they are totally oblivious to their actions affecting others? why are they so fucking rude?

why is it in western society it seems like most murderers are absolutely sane people? what the fuck?

why is violent crime so fucking high?

why the fuck do people litter everywhere?

why do people have disregard to public property and destroy it for no fucking reason?

whos the sick and twisted mother fucker that thought super young children should be put through sex ed?

why are westerners so fucking openly promiscuous?

western women are prostitutes compared to some other societies women.

what kind of society promotes mascots such as pedobear? why are there so many fucking pedophiles in the western world?

what kind of fucked up place is this?

who the fuck created this society? fucking sick. fucking twisted. and the worst part of it is, most people, think it's completely normal and think everyone else is fucked.

sounds like a fucking insane society to me. sounds like everyone's fucked in the head. what a sick society.



have you ever stepped foot into a non western society and had someone tell you everything they think is fucked up about you?

what kind of fucking people strive to be shopaholic, money grabbing, fake, nasty, shallow, social climbing, narcissistic, cocksuckers?

almost all of us. that's how everyone views you. thats how everyone views me. that's how everyone else views all of us from the west.

and you think bestiality is fucked up.


you know almost none of the things i just listed above happens in other cultures... at all?

for every one thing you think is weird or sick, i guarantee you, in the eyes of another culture, they can point at you and list 3 things. you're just as fucked up.


and don't be so egocentric to think: "well that's them, i dont give a shit about them". guess what, that's totally fucked up in the worst possible way. i'd rather live with a buncha people that fucked dogs than a buncha people that didn't give a shit about how others feel. some fucking weird twisted self destructive mentality.


CULTURE IS THE RESULT OF SUBJECTIVITY.

if everyone was more objective, there would be no cultures. cultures are archaic.

open your eyes. wake up into the real world. lift the veil that has warped and filtered your perspective for your entire life.

you are just as weird and sick and fucked up as the person you're pointing your finger at.

the only way you can break out, is to be less subjective and more objective.


if i threw you in a society where masturbation is deemed the most sick and twisted act one can perform. and you were caught once, and all eyes were on you. all fingers pointing at you. performing the devils act. self pleasure. sick. twisted. wouldn't that be fucked up?

i just realised how sad this is. the fact that most people that read this, will totally not understand what the fuck im talking about at all. they're so fucking stuck in their own little perspectives, unable to view anything from other than their own egos. totally unable. to the point where this completely flies over the top of their heads. they dont even begin to understand what im talking about.

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Old 09-25-2012, 05:25 AM   #58
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Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. If anything this thread opened my eyes a bit, I wasn't aware there were so many people who are pro beastiality, or at least perfectly fine with the concept.
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I applaud your open-mindedness, MindBomber.
Thank you, I strive to not allow perception affect my judgement processes.

John Rawl's veil of ignorance thought experiment is a good example of how I arrive at my, not necessarily mainstream, conclusions on some subjects.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:09 AM   #59
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I'm a fairly open guy to "living and letting live" in terms of keeping the gov't out of people's bedrooms.

But I'm really happy to keep dog fuckers on the opposing side of the laws as they stand.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:17 AM   #60
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Oh it must be nice to have to suck an elders cock and swallow as a right of passage I'm sure a completely normal person thought that one up.

Anyways this threads gotten a little twisted, I'm not here to change anyone's mind on the matter.
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You're using the slippery slope argument. I must say Ulic and Mindbomber have opened up my mind. Ultimately what is right or wrong had to do with the degree of suffering.


Do you masturbate with pron? If you do, that could be misconstrued as disgusting etc, touching yourself while looking at 2D images of women engaging in sex. 100 years ago that would have been regarded as disgusting. Etc.

I'm not pro-anything. I'm not into anal, but of people want to do those things, so be it.
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:36 AM   #61
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I'm a fairly open guy to "living and letting live" in terms of keeping the gov't out of people's bedrooms.

But I'm really happy to keep dog fuckers on the opposing side of the laws as they stand.
Devils advocate, what if the dog WANTS to be fucked?
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Old 09-25-2012, 06:40 AM   #62
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Devils advocate, what if the dog WANTS to be fucked?
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Fair enough. I'm cool to change the laws when, Planet of the Apes style, the dog turns around and says, "fuck my dog pussy hard"

In the meantime, go find something else to hump.
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:07 AM   #63
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MindBomber, I'm impressed with your patience in explaining everything to everyone who hasn't dabbled in philosophy as much as you have.

Maybe I need to read more about Rawls, but what I find contradictory is that on one hand, he has basic principles such as the Liberty Principle, where on the other hand, the veil of ignorance ultimately says that nothing is wrong, and everything essentially comes down to a vote (what the society ends up deciding must be best and fair). Therefore, if 51% of the people decided to genocide that other 49%, nobody couldn't say that they were wrong.

You also have basic assumptions which you are pressing upon everyone, even if it's not intentional. I'll sum up your fundamental with a snippet of what you said: "I support anything that prevents pain". I would say that this is similar to Sam Harris's fundamental which he talks about in "The Moral Landscape" as the greatest good for the greatest number of people.

Now of course, the immediate response to that is to define what pain or harm is, which is to define what well-being is. But I can guarantee that your definition of harm is different than mine, and you definitely wouldn't agree with mine. So if our definitions of harm differ, and we certainly aren't telling people what is wrong, but only what we feel is wrong, we end up back at square one: if 51% of the people of a society determine something is wrong, then it must be wrong, effectively negating any notion of human rights.

As you may know, there was a lady at the University of Rhode island who studied genital mutilation in Africa, and after seeing the things happening in the tribes there, she wanted to say that this is wrong, not just impractical, but wrong. She eventually realized that as a western, secular person, she had no right to tell them what was 'right' or 'wrong', but you know what, she told them anyways. Likewise, when we see something like genocide, we don't say 'hmm, that's impractical', we think it's actually wrong. How do you reconcile this? or do you, as many people do, just live with the tension?

I respect your position, but I have not yet heard how you arrived at your underlying fundamentals.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:02 AM   #64
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Nice post, but would be better without the constant fucks and lack of captilization for readibility.....
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:42 AM   #65
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i like swearing. it's like screaming with caps, without the caps.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:26 PM   #66
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I'm so confused right now...
So if a father haves sex with his teenage daughter
And she doesn't run away or cry for whatever reason,
That's cool, right?
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:31 PM   #67
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No cause that will cause psychological pain and its been proven by the doctors in this thread that horses and other animals don't feel anything or care if someone tries to stick something inside them.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:50 PM   #68
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uh plenty of related people have fucked and have had offspring in the history of mankind.

and some of those offspring have become very famous and prominent people.

the following is just a small list of married related people:

Johann Sebastien Bach

Werner von Braun

Charles Darwin

Albert Einstein

Rudy Giuliani

Jessie James

Mary and Joseph

Aemilia Lanyer

Jerry Lee Lewis

Sir John A. MacDonald

Prophet Muhammad

Edgar Allen Poe

Christopher Robin

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Greta Scacchi

Queen Victoria

H.G. Wells


how you feel about the subject doesn't change the truth of the fact.

you guys really have no idea what subjectivity vs objectivity is do you?

like absolutely no clue. no concept of it.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:56 PM   #69
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uh plenty of related people have fucked and have had offspring in the history of mankind.

and some of those offspring have become very famous and prominent people.

the following is just a small list of married related people:

Johann Sebastien Bach

Werner von Braun

Charles Darwin

Albert Einstein

Rudy Giuliani

Jessie James

Mary and Joseph

Aemilia Lanyer

Jerry Lee Lewis

Sir John A. MacDonald

Prophet Muhammad

Edgar Allen Poe

Christopher Robin

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Greta Scacchi

Queen Victoria

H.G. Wells


how you feel about the subject doesn't change the truth of the fact.

you guys really have no idea what subjectivity vs objectivity is do you?

like absolutely no clue. no concept of it.
Cool and if you we're born deformed from inbreeding because your parents were brother and sister you would be cool about it? Knowing full well it could have been prevented but they decided to do it cause its their right to do what they want
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:56 PM   #70
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Cool and if you we're born deformed from inbreeding because your parents were brother and sister you would be cool about it? Knowing full well it could have been prevented but they decided to do it cause its their right to do what they want
And are you saying all the children born with Down Syndrome, Autism, genetic birth defects like 2 heads or extra limbs or partially formed limbs is a result of their parents being siblings?
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:25 PM   #71
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And are you saying all the children born with Down Syndrome, Autism, genetic birth defects like 2 heads or extra limbs or partially formed limbs is a result of their parents being siblings?
No I chalk that up to shitty luck. But inbreeding is proven to cause birth defects, just like you shouldn't smoke or drink or do drugs when you're pregnant. CAN you still do it? Sure. SHOULD you? Not if you're a responsible person. But hey, do what you want it's not my child.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:38 PM   #72
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No I chalk that up to shitty luck. But inbreeding is proven to cause birth defects, just like you shouldn't smoke or drink or do drugs when you're pregnant. CAN you still do it? Sure. SHOULD you? Not if you're a responsible person. But hey, do what you want it's not my child.
Say I get genetically tested and also have my spouse tested and am told if we were to have a child, that child would have a 50% chance of being born with defects because of our genetics. Is it still shitty luck that we try anyways or are we irresponsible for trying?

We know children born from women over the age of 40 has an increased chance of being born with defects. Is that still shitty luck or irresponsible parenting?

Say during the pregnancy, a doctors checkup determines the child will be born with defects and we choose to have the child anyways instead of terminating the pregnancy when the option is still available. Are we irresponsible people for terminating or not terminating the pregnancy?
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:44 PM   #73
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Say I get genetically tested and also have my spouse tested and am told if we were to have a child, that child would have a 50% chance of being born with defects because of our genetics. Is it still shitty luck that we try anyways or are we irresponsible for trying?

We know children born from women over the age of 40 has an increased chance of being born with defects. Is that still shitty luck or irresponsible parenting?

Say during the pregnancy, a doctors checkup determines the child will be born with defects and we choose to have the child anyways instead of terminating the pregnancy when the option is still available. Are we irresponsible people for terminating or not terminating the pregnancy?
Say your doctor tells you if you smoke you're 50% more likely to die from lung cancer because it runs in your family, are you going to smoke? Stupid questions like this are redundant, people are gonna do what they want regardless of what people tell them. Would it change my perception of those people for the choices they make? Absolutely.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:48 PM   #74
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No I chalk that up to shitty luck. But inbreeding is proven to cause birth defects, just like you shouldn't smoke or drink or do drugs when you're pregnant. CAN you still do it? Sure. SHOULD you? Not if you're a responsible person. But hey, do what you want it's not my child.
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Children of people with close genetic ties is shown to be more safe than contemporary culture would have you believe. It's when a number of consectutive generations are produced without outside genetic influence that the likelihood of birth defects skyrockets.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:53 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
Children of people with close genetic ties is shown to be more safe than contemporary culture would have you believe. It's when a number of consectutive generations are produced without outside genetic influence that the likelihood of birth defects skyrockets.
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I think the big picture is being missed throughout it all. Everyone's perception of what is right and wrong is different, what emotional pain is or isn't. You're basically arguing that no ones wrong and anything should go as long as the person or culture deems it to be ok.
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MarkyMark is offline   Reply With Quote
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