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Vancouver Off-Topic / Current EventsThe off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.
Your math doesn't seem to add up - a full time min wage job grosses $36k so 20 hrs a week is $18k. How does one save $20k when they gross $18k/yr?
living at home for free like most of the people i knew:
Sat/sun X 50 weeks X 8hrs X 20$/hr is 16k, 14k in pocket as taxes dont exist at that tax bracket.
Another 5k working a a few extra hours, weekday evening, holidays, etc, does not take much
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i like how a bunch of 30-50yo are roadmapping exactly what a 20yo needs to do to set themselves up in life, and even under the most perfect circumstances set out by RS napkin math they can barely make it. this ignores the fact that finances are never a straight line. we buy dumb shit, we travel, we invest in dumb shit that loses us money, we lose our jobs for a little while, we have to reset our finances sometimes, etc..
i can honestly say despite having a good job in my early/mid 20s i had terrible finances till i was at least 30, then had serious ups and downs until i was in my late 30s. i bought a house with everything i had basically and did renos and im basically back to broke again. my wife quit her job out of stress last year and went back to school to refresh some skills and is looking for work again now.
to get to a good stable place and own a house that you don't see yourself needing to upsize out of for a long while or ever, i think you really need to be in the top 10% in the lower mainland. not everyone is gonna get there unless there are two high earners in the household and with family help, and that's despite life's hiccups that never seem to stop coming.
living at home for free like most of the people i knew:
Sat/sun X 50 weeks X 8hrs X 20$/hr is 16k, 14k in pocket as taxes dont exist at that tax bracket.
Another 5k working a a few extra hours, weekday evening, holidays, etc, does not take much
So someone would need parents who fund their life - tuition, living expenses, room and board, books, dating, travel etc in order to save $20k? So you live like a mooch by living off your family while you're saving up $100k?
At best maybe 1 out of 5 of my friend circle lived in that circumstance - some relocated to Vancouver to go to school (or they had to go elsewhere for school), some (like me) had parents who couldn't afford to fund me (they only paid for tuition for 4 years, I was on my own the rest of the way), some had bad home situations (father who deserted them, unstable mother) etc. Yes, some lived in stable situations with parents who had the funds to let them live for free for 5-8 years after high school but that was not the norm. Some of my friends had the parents who bought them a car and paid for their car insurance too.
My wife is actually one of those people who lived at home in her 20s, took out loans despite that (her parents were pretty poor), and still managed to save $100k - it's exceptional that she managed to do that and the circumstances behind it illustrate it. It can be done but it's not easy and it takes a lot of family support to make it happen - support that many people don't have. It's a privilege to be in that situation AND it requires a lot of (questionable) sacrifice to make it happen. Looking back she would have chosen differently as she missed out on a lot of life (and the acquisition of life skills).
My wife lived at home during school. We moved out once I was done school and we rented a basement. She didn't have student loans as her RESP paid off most of her tuition whereas I had about 18k of loans. By the time we were 27, she had about 100k saved up and I had about 10k (we shared my car, I paid for the costs, I had student loans, and I made less, works out better that way at the end as she's better at saving than me cause I would have just blown it all on car parts)
We started looking when were got engaged and we bought a townhouse as my parents gave us 100k. Even without the 100k we could have been able to buy a place, just a bit smaller.
There were no tax benefits that I could remember, the material savings would have been splitting rent cost, only carrying one set of benefits (taxable), her not needing her own car as we got around fine (she had to learn stick).
The intangibles were meal costs as cooking for 2 is a lot easier/cheaper than 1.
So in conclusion. I probably wouldn't have been able to do it cause I like fucking around with cars, but wife would probably have managed even if she had moved out.
A fresh grad can easily get 50K a year gross depending on their profession and job market.
50k gross = 3,333 net after tax
1,500 to investments a month (18k a year) - factoring tuition credits, fhsa contributions and RRSP contributions, they should also get an additional 2-3k tax refund a year)
300 to loan payments
500 to parents/rent
1k to do whatever they want with it (not much but it’s doable)
It sucks but it’s what you have to do nowadays to get ahead financially if you have the opportunity to stay at home. People that don’t take advantage of this have no excuse of doing poor financially in their later years and can’t complain and act a victim
I feel staying at home is a double edged sword, parents bought you a presale condo? Just rent it out while you lived at home? Then you won't really learn about money, you can't learn about money without being poor and having no money. I think now a days most younger people still live at home under 30, then finally move out when they get a partner. That's 5 years of post secondary income, new iPhones every year? New model 3? Vacation every year? Dog, cat? While living at home.
It sucks but it’s what you have to do nowadays to get ahead financially if you have the opportunity to stay at home. People that don’t take advantage of this have no excuse of doing poor financially in their later years and can’t complain and act a victim
It's gotta be a good opportunity that's better than other opportunities though.
My brother had the option of living at home for as long as he wanted (like I did) but he had a very contentious relationship with my dad b/c he didn't go to university and university was the MOST important thing to my dad (for a long time he would only speak to relatives about me b/c I got a degree, my brother basically didn't exist) so he left at the first opportunity. Were it not for my degree giving me a buffer I would have left just like he did.
Just because you can stay doesn't mean you should - sometimes there are better options out there and sometimes it's not healthy/safe to stay.
I feel that might be a bit harsh (re: suffer financially)
I mean, in order to grow and gain life experiences (i.e. date, buy a car, travel etc.) you have to spend some money. Unless the idea is to stay at home and not spend any money, then there are missed opportunities for personal growth and development.
If by blowing their money means boozin' it up and doing cocaine on a weekly basis, well, that's a different story.
Its ridiculously hard to save money for a down-payment. Fresh grads don't make much and then you start to pay off your student loans. In a perfect scenario, you're living at home with no hobbies and entertainment, and you're saving every single cent, but life's not perfect and you start helping family out while living at home or paying rent elsewhere, have hobbies, go out with friends, and start dating.
Yeah put down 5% on a $500K starter home ($25K) but do you have the salary to support your mortgage ($121k according to some affordability calculators)? Sure, things get easier once you find a partner, but does it really? I've seen some messy breakups once they've combined finances.
And then there's my younger brother, fresh grad, 23, in tech (he took COGS not even actual comp sci) & moved to SF. Making 200K USD/yr with rent and food covered on top.
Lived at home throughout school, worked 2-3 jobs, pays for his own vehicle expenses (gas, insurance (parents covered half), maint), didnt have to pay for groceries unless he was meal prepping where he bought stuff himself, didn't pay for home expenses, but has student loans to pay for and has a large investment portfolio.
Glad he didn't get into cars, cause he's way more well rounded than me. I would say his job and for his field of study, that pay isn't abnormal. He himself described himself as hard working, but definitely lucky. But even all of his peers, are in the same position at high six-fig salary, especially those who grew up with a difficult relationship with money (ie. we hear our parents say it all the time - so I took on responsibilities early, and he got the chance to build momentum).
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They say until you experience being actually poor/broke, your mindset to save & build wealth will never be there. The first $100K is the hardest to save, once you hit that, things compound easier in investments. A lot of young folks these days don't even want to try to save, just bitch about not making enough or how expensive things are. If one can't save money living at home, then surely they ain't saving jack after they are moved out.
People want new shit, travel few times a year, eat out 3 times a week, new car every few years. That isn't going to help save or build wealth. Gotta invest money to make more money. Nowadays with social media, the temptation is out of this world. My wife is the worst with temptations what she sees online. I'm here being cheapo alfredo not spending unless needed, she's on the other spending (marriage I tell ya LOL).
These arguments always come down to: People don't know what life actually is like for others outside of their circle. Averages are not necessarily a good reference point, because some jobs pay so much that it skews the data.
Are there people who can do it? Yes, but a lot can't. Our anecdotal experiences from the 10 people we know in our circles of life is not a representation of the population. The fact this is a forum for car enthusiasts already tells you that we are more likely than not to be in better off positions than many others (how many people here don't have a car and need to take the bus everywhere?).
Why is it that the homeless encampments keep growing and spreading across the city?
Why is RV life and Van life a growing thing?
Why are less kids getting their drivers licenses?
Why do people have to rent rooms with 6 other individuals?
Why are landlords cutting up rooms and putting up curtains to divide up as many "units" as possible?
Why do the world's most expensive cities, like Singapore and Hong Kong, have extensive amounts of subsidized housing?
Are there people who are financially irresponsible? Sure, but it would be ignorant to simply say "people just need to work harder" and not acknowledge that there are some major cost of living issues. My strata fee has gone up 40% in the last 5 years, restaurants and groceries have gone up 50%~ in price while portions have gone down in size, salaries have not kept up at the same rate. Do things have to go up another 50% before we agree that it's not okay? 100%? 200%? At what point does "just work harder" have diminishing returns?
TLDR: Some people need to be more financially responsible, some people need to work harder, some people will never be able to make it because things are too far out of reach and there are systemic issues.
These arguments always come down to: People don't know what life actually is like for others outside of their circle. Averages are not necessarily a good reference point, because some jobs pay so much that it skews the data.
Are there people who can do it? Yes, but a lot can't. Our anecdotal experiences from the 10 people we know in our circles of life is not a representation of the population. The fact this is a forum for car enthusiasts already tells you that we are more likely than not to be in better off positions than many others (how many people here don't have a car and need to take the bus everywhere?).
Why is it that the homeless encampments keep growing and spreading across the city?
Why is RV life and Van life a growing thing?
Why are less kids getting their drivers licenses?
Why do people have to rent rooms with 6 other individuals?
Why are landlords cutting up rooms and putting up curtains to divide up as many "units" as possible?
Why do the world's most expensive cities, like Singapore and Hong Kong, have extensive amounts of subsidized housing?
Are there people who are financially irresponsible? Sure, but it would be ignorant to simply say "people just need to work harder" and not acknowledge that there are some major cost of living issues. My strata fee has gone up 40% in the last 5 years, restaurants and groceries have gone up 50%~ in price while portions have gone down in size, salaries have not kept up at the same rate. Do things have to go up another 50% before we agree that it's not okay? 100%? 200%? At what point does "just work harder" have diminishing returns?
TLDR: Some people need to be more financially responsible, some people need to work harder, some people will never be able to make it because things are too far out of reach and there are systemic issues.
I think our education has seriously failed the future generations. At school, everything is about being chill and PC. Fuck, I remember when I lived in Taiwan as a kid, for every 2pts that I lost on test (once every 2mth) was one woop on the hand by my teacher with a trimmed 2x4 from the wooden stool we sat on.
We do this all in the sake of "preventing school trauma", and what did we fucking achieve? Kids now have more ADHD/ASD diagnosis than ever, gender dysphoria and whatever else mental problems that somehow we didn't really have in our generation. And there's a phrase in Taiwan calling younger kids the "generation of strawberries" because they can't be touched and would bruise as with the lightest squeeze.
Yes, I know it's not prevalent because it went unrecognized/unreported. But for peeps now in their late 30s/early 40s, how many peers do you know in the same age group that their condition still affect their daily life? Out of the 100s of F&F+ acquaintances, I know one that suffers serious depression. And It's not even the school system problem but rather something that happened in his family.
Very often, we implemented solution to problems that doesn't really exist. Remember when Google did the Google Glass and everyone was going nuts about privacy or copyright (wearing to movies) going as far as having lawmakers to come up with drafts to ban them?
Don't get me wrong, the intention is good. But why don't we stop changing things for the sake of changing. If things ain't broken, don't fix it. And if something might break, let it flow a bit before making any decision.
Hehe - I get what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time trying to correlate child whoopin' to systemic issues in relation to wealth generation, saving, property ownership, "growing up:, and economic uncertainty.
Hehe - I get what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time trying to correlate child whoopin' to systemic issues in relation to wealth generation, saving, property ownership, "growing up:, and economic uncertainty.
No, I'm saying that our generation is far more resilient. We drive because we want to go where we want to go. Thus, DL is a must. And saving up to buy a car was one of the first thing we did was we leave home.
Kids nowadays, at least from what I see in their 20s have no desire to do that. Well, not all, but a good number.
For my nephew, if something is at a distance where a Uber+maybe a flight is too not reachable, then maybe that is too far.
We were taught to rely on ourselves, if there's anything we want to do, WE must change toward that. You want better scores? You work harder. You want better $$$ at work? You work harder. You want better chicks? You work harder.
Kids nowadays are taught it's ok if you can't do something. It's not your fault. It's the system, the gov't, or the society... it is NEVER about them. They can do anything, and if they couldn't, something must be wrong. We blame Tinder for dating, billionaires for money and racism for kids can't make to Ivy league. What's wrong to tell the kids for once, if you want those things, you've got to work harder?
The kids who used to go clean the inside of chimneys to make a living would think you and I are entitled and lazy despite all the beatings we took as children.
I like to think that all the wealth we created since the time of kid chimney cleaners and since our time as children means we can afford to live out our basest desires and have more consideration for people.
Okay, thank you for the context. Resilience is one thing, and it's a characteristic that needs to be learned/taught.
I don't disagree that if it's not convenient (re: Uber) then they just give up. Well, that's because people like us have enabled this sort of convenience for them. I think we might be guilty in some way or form for investing in Uber, Tesla, and such related technologies to enable social conveniences. I'm willing to bet we didn't weigh out the human impact it would have on society, did we?
The kids who used to go clean the inside of chimneys to make a living would think you and I are entitled and lazy despite all the beatings we took as children.
I like to think that all the wealth we created since the time of kid chimney cleaners and since our time as children means we can afford to live out our basest desires and have more consideration for people.
Jesus, that was hard to see.
I'm going to go hug my kids now
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