Chinese nationals brought in to work B.C. coal mines

[Matlock]

Some people blame it on the unions for raising the cost of Canadian workers.

[Lomac]

Originally Posted by azndude69

Not a fan of this as most of the Chinese workers will just save up all their money and send it back home. If we can get workers from other provinces ie. newfoundland and nova scotia (if they can be trained to work on Oil rigs, they can be trained to work coal mines). Rather have canadians working and keeping the money within Canada.

Seems a little short sided. What's wrong with wanting to go to another country in order to theoretically make more money in order to support your family back home? My original life plan a few years back was to finish off school in England and apply for a job in Europe, with full intentions of moving back to Canada after a couple years. And yes, while I'd be spending money over there to buy basic stuff (rent, food, etc), I'd be saving most of my money for once I came back home. I don't really see an issue with that.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by 68style

Your theory is based entirely on you believing that any cost savings measures are passed onto the consumer. They simply are not. I can't think of a single product that got cheaper because they moved manufacturing from North America to China... the only thing that changed was the company's profit margin.

No one is willing to do the jobs here for that money because you can't build a life here on that money... if you want to turn the country into a place that only produces work for people in college who just need a part time job or people from out of country that are willing to live in some craphole up North freezing their nuts off sleeping in bunk bed camps just because it's more money than they could make back in their own country so they're willing to do it to send that money back home to family...... I think that's pretty asinine and destructive to community building in Canada.

Things don't get cheaper when they move production to China but they're at the price point they're at right now because they're produced in China. I guarantee you the iPhone (just using this as an example since everyone knows it's made in China) would cost more money.

No, moving production to China does not pass savings to consumers. That would be stupid. If people are already willing to pay the higher price, moving production to China means more profit for the manufacturer. What company would pass production savings to the consumer?

It might not be a good living but it's money. Give the homeless jobs?

[Phil@rise]

Originally Posted by Manic!

Car Audio:
Focal, Morel, Genesis, Clarion, Scosche, Escort, Compustar, GReddy, HKS, Blitz, Tomei, Motul, Endless, Defi, Cusco, Nismo + More

Exactly. I dont control the market the consumer does.

[TheKingdom2000]

Is the incidence of lung disease or cancer higher if you work in a coal mine?
If so, then maybe it's better that they out source these jobs.

That way we don't have to worry about taking care of these people down the road if they get sick. Since they'll be sent back to China. I guess i'm thinking of the long term and the medical costs associated with this type of work.

And if not, then totally disregard the above.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by mx703

Is the incidence of lung disease or cancer higher if you work in a coal mine?
If so, then maybe it's better that they out source these jobs.

That way we don't have to worry about taking care of these people down the road if they get sick. Since they'll be sent back to China. I guess i'm thinking of the long term and the medical costs associated with this type of work.

And if not, then totally disregard the above.

Until they start a class action law suit and wants to stay in Canada while eating our Health system fundings........

[68style]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Things don't get cheaper when they move production to China but they're at the price point they're at right now because they're produced in China. I guarantee you the iPhone (just using this as an example since everyone knows it's made in China) would cost more money.

No, moving production to China does not pass savings to consumers. That would be stupid. If people are already willing to pay the higher price, moving production to China means more profit for the manufacturer. What company would pass production savings to the consumer?

It might not be a good living but it's money. Give the homeless jobs?

I couldn't disagree more, the iPhone would cost you and me exactly the same regardless of whether it was made in China or not, the only difference would be that Apple wouldn't make as much money. The market (ie: what people are willing to pay for a phone), the quality of the product and competitor product prices dictate the price of the product. The cost to produce it does not factor in this case.

Likewise with the coal mining hires, the company wants to pay nothing to make huge money. Is that good for you? Is that good for Canada? Nope. Hell, it's not even good for those Chinese nationals in the long run, because it further delays their ability to push their home country into treating people more fairly so they're just selling their countrymen and future generations short to pocket some cash of their own with very short-sighted thinking.

The only reason the mining company can't move their "production" to China is because the mine is here, and that's pretty troublesome... so they're trying to bring China here instead and that's B.S. They're contributing absolutely dick all to this country and stealing its resources at the same time.

[minoru_tanaka]

You guys are getting carried away with your hatred of mainlanders. These coal miners aren't the ones buying their kids lambos and ferraris to race thru the massey tunnel. They're people with starving kids that they want to provide a better life for. Deny these workers and you're denying their kids the chance to go to school instead of squatting in a rice paddy 15 hours a day.

They're willing to do the jobs we're not. Worried about human rights? These people are worried about human survival. At least they'll work in Canada and see how Canadian workers are treated.

I mean come on guys. Mostly chinese on this site. How many of our great great grandfathers came here to work on the railroads for cheap wages?

[MoBettah]

First off, we're talking about people here. Not animals. This isn't war, it's not an invasion, and certainly people shouldn't be suggesting that we hire the Chinese for just the hazardous and the life threatening work. These are human lives, people who are just trying to support their families and make a better livelihood for themselves.

I get it, people are easily blinded by media and popular opinion. It's popular and easy to dehumanise the Chinese and lump them all together. They are the rich corrupt criminals, the dirty poor labourers stealing jobs, and everything inscrutable in between. All we know is they can't be trusted cause they're Chinese...

I work in O&G management. Most of you have not a clue what the hell you're talking about.

There aren't enough CANADIANS WILLING to work up north. There are ex cons and druggies starting up in Northern BC / AB with little to no experience for 80 - 120K/year. Trades people can easily make north of 300K. Every other punk bitch whining about how difficult it is to find decent paying work or how unaffordable life in Vancouver is needs to stop and move north for a few years RIGHT NOW. Realize that being in Western Canada right now as a Canadian is like winning the geographic lottery. There is more money, more jobs, more opportunity than almost anywhere in the developed world right now.

We once treated the Chinese in the way many of you suggest we should. We needed their labour and help to build this country. When they came over though we forced them to live in segregated areas in the worst areas of town, gave them all the jobs that would require them to risk their limbs and lives, then we implemented a head tax for just their specific race. I see that many of you would like to return to those times.

[Ronin]

I can see how the iPhone comparison doesn't exactly mirror what's going on here in BC.

I'd be interested in knowing what "competitive" wages means, though.

In this situation, I'd guess it would have to be low because coal has to be cheap. If coal was expensive, it just wouldn't be used as an energy source. The problem with mining in a 1st world, affluent nation is that fewer people want to do lower paying jobs. I think the point they make about Canadians not having the proper training is bullshit...it's that people here won't do the work for the wages offered and the wages can't be higher or else the cost of coal go up. Seems like the only business solution would be to outsource.

Is it good for me? Probably not. Would I do the same thing in their shoes? I'd certainly think about it.

[guava]

i would be willing to work in those mines for 200k/yr. where do i apply?

[MoBettah]

Originally Posted by Boostaholic

Legally if a company applies to hire temporary workers, they cannot pay them less than they would pay a local worker. So the workers they are importing are not necessarily cheap. The government is also not stupid, they won't grant them the ability to hire abroad if there are people here willing to do the job.

Exactly.

These are not cost cutting measures. The law states that companies need to pay the going rate to these foreign workers. As I stated above, this is just due to the shortage of willing workers.

Let this be a thought to all of you who oppose Northern Gateway and similar projects. Northern gateway is capable of bringing in anywhere up to a TRILLION dollars in investment over the next 20-30 years. How many jobs do you think that could create? I'm all for doing it safely and ethically, but all I see is blind ignorance, greed and rejection of anything energy related.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by Lomac

Seems a little short sided. What's wrong with wanting to go to another country in order to theoretically make more money in order to support your family back home? My original life plan a few years back was to finish off school in England and apply for a job in Europe, with full intentions of moving back to Canada after a couple years. And yes, while I'd be spending money over there to buy basic stuff (rent, food, etc), I'd be saving most of my money for once I came back home. I don't really see an issue with that.

Valid point, but it depends on whose interests are you going for.

If I were these chinese workers of course I would want to work in Canada. Same with me if it were some job in ______ (insert desirable country).

However the interests of the local residents may be more beneficial to them if workers can be found. For the people in England, that's one job less for a resident there.

I understand the case if it were a position that was more difficult to fill ie. skilled labour, professional doctors, athletes etc, but coal miners imo can be trained. It's hard to replace a doctor but I don't think it will be too difficult to find/train a coal miner.

Personally I think these companies are trying to save costs on labour, but I could be wrong.

[spyker]

Originally Posted by guava

i would be willing to work in those mines for 200k/yr. where do i apply?

last fucking thing we need is to have the mining vehicles dressed up in hideous tasteless MM Design wrap.

We seriously hate seeing that shit here,so we difinately don't want that shit spreading across Canada.

[SpeedStars]

Don't see what's the problem. Back in the 19th century, Canada imported many chinese people as railroad workers anyways - but this was to save on costs. Since its the 2012 now, I doubt they can still save costs off outsourcing people to work in Canada. I'd probably expect that the mining jobs just aren't too desirable here in Canada due to health concerns, then given the situation many of those located in the less developed cities in China, this gives them the oppourtunity to let their kids go to school and possibly buy them a hot wheel just for their birthday present. Even then, the foreign miners would still be investing a bit of money in our economy as they do need the basic needs ( food, water, shelter, etc).

[El Bastardo]

Originally Posted by guava

i would be willing to work in those mines for 200k/yr. where do i apply?

I don't get why you were failed for that. I'll sign up for mining at 200k a year.

[twitchyzero]

Originally Posted by azndude69

Not a fan of this as most of the Chinese workers will just save up all their money and send it back home. If we can get workers from other provinces ie. newfoundland and nova scotia (if they can be trained to work on Oil rigs, they can be trained to work coal mines). Rather have canadians working and keeping the money within Canada.

Not a fan of this attitude.

Why accept international students at school...why allow foreigners to buy our RE etc etc

If you want to think this way, don't ever go cross border shopping, because you are using money that should be kept inside Canada, to fund Canadian businesses.

Globalization has been around for a while and will just continue to expand.

[Mr.HappySilp]

Originally Posted by MoBettah

Exactly.

These are not cost cutting measures. The law states that companies need to pay the going rate to these foreign workers. As I stated above, this is just due to the shortage of willing workers.

Let this be a thought to all of you who oppose Northern Gateway and similar projects. Northern gateway is capable of bringing in anywhere up to a TRILLION dollars in investment over the next 20-30 years. How many jobs do you think that could create? I'm all for doing it safely and ethically, but all I see is blind ignorance, greed and rejection of anything energy related.

Right and when there is an oil spill who is to pay the price? Ppl who live in BC, the gov of BC will have to fork out billions and billions for the clean. What does the oil company do? Nothing..... Have you seen how bad oil leak accidents can be? Have you see if any of these so call oil company ever take responsibility and pay for the clean up 100% and to help with any aftermath? Nope they just all run away and fire a few people to try to prove they are doing something.

I don't care how much money and jobs it can create, once an oil leak happens it will be a long long long time to clean up and return to the way it was (maybe 30+ years). What about the wild life that was damage coz of the oil leak?

[asian_XL]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

Not a fan of this attitude.

Why accept international students at school...why allow foreigners to buy our RE etc etc

If you want to think this way, don't ever go cross border shopping, because you are using money that should be kept inside Canada, to fund Canadian businesses.

Globalization has been around for a while and will just continue to expand.

Even the foreign corporates are doing the same in China, set up a manufacturing plants in China, paying minimum wage to workers and profitting by selling the products in other well developed countries. How much do they contribute back to China? Yeah, many jobs are created and taxes are paid to the communists, but Chinese do not get a cut from the actual profit, instead the corporates demand more and more from it.

If you want these Chinese coal workers to stay and spend money in Canada, sure, get their whole family to move to BC then problem will be solved.

[MindBomber]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

Not a fan of this attitude.

Why accept international students at school...why allow foreigners to buy our RE etc etc

If you want to think this way, don't ever go cross border shopping, because you are using money that should be kept inside Canada, to fund Canadian businesses.

Globalization has been around for a while and will just continue to expand.

Globalization is a reality, very few intelligent people would attempt to prevent that from occurring because it would be an entirely futile battle. I suggest, this proposal is a radical divergence from the style of globalization we have seen thus far and it is very troubling given the current state of international relations.

The proposed mine will be:
-funded through Chinese investment.
-supplying coal to Chinese industry.
-staffed entirely by Chinese workers.

A traditional mine would be:
-funded through various nations.
-supplying coal to more than one nation (read: diversification)
-staffed by Canadian workers with the exception of a few highly specialized positions.

The benefits of this mine to Canadians will be (because it is our non-renewable resource, afterall):
-finite corporate tax revenue.
-finite income tax revenue.
-limited supply related positions (ie. trucking, trains)

The benefits of a traditional mine to Canadians would be:
-finite corporate tax revenue.
-infinite income tax revenue.
-MASSIVE economic stimulus to the surrounding area to support workers (usually a town would arise in support of a mine, that's hundreds of additional jobs for Canadians and millions in income tax revenue, instead there will be a company owned town)
-worker wages spent in Canada (nationwide, like the oil sands)
-limited supply related positions (see above).
-the training of skilled workers within Canada so the, "there's no skilled hard rock miners in Canada to work a mine" argument, won't occur again.

That works out to this massive, damaging exploitation of a Canadian non-renewable resource for a small fraction of the potential benefits.

Then there's the Chinese coal miner factor -

The company can deny it all they like, a worker trained in an environment where dangerous practices fly will bring them over the pacific to work in Canada. Anyone who has spent a significant amount of time working construction, mining, logging, etc. has had new hires with dangerous habits brought on and let go because they couldn't be trained out of them.

There's also the HIGH risk that the company exploits the workers, they'll pay them a fair wage but charge them $40 for breakfast because they can only live in the company town.

You can say, giving these workers jobs will help them feed their families.

I'll say great, I don't give a fuck about their families. I'm not the perfect humanitarian, I won't give you my jacket on a brisk morning to keep you warm and walk away freezing. China doesn't give a damn about paying miners fair wages in country to benefit those people, why should I take a hit to benefit them?

You can say, but poor Chinese workers built the railroad so this should be okay!

Well, you also say, poor Chinese workers building the railroad was a massive human rights violation, and suggest the workers descendants should be compensated. You can't argue the Chinese railroad workers were done an injustice, then cite that as a reason why this should be okay.

You can say, but we buy products that are made in China, like car speakers!

Yeah, well, buying Chinese built speakers doesn't detract from the supply of a finite resource and damage the environment. I also don't have a damn choice, because I've never heard of Canadian built iPhones.

You can say, no Canadians want the jobs.

I know two people who were thrilled when they got jobs in mining, because the logging industry is hurting and it's much closer to home than the oil fields. Give finding Canadian workers a shot, I'd feel A LOT better about outsourcing the jobs then.

and.... I'll cut my little rant off there.

[Manic!]

Originally Posted by Phil@rise

Exactly. I dont control the market the consumer does.

carry Zapco JL audio AVI?

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by twitchyzero

Not a fan of this attitude.

Why accept international students at school...why allow foreigners to buy our RE etc etc

If you want to think this way, don't ever go cross border shopping, because you are using money that should be kept inside Canada, to fund Canadian businesses.

Globalization has been around for a while and will just continue to expand.

You're extrapolating from a single post that I am against globalization. I'm not.
As in my earlier posts, I just think from a Canadian citizen point of view, it would be better for the country if we hired the people living here instead of temp foreign workers.

It's a different scenario for those third world countries. Like how Africa is in short supply of doctors and has to hire foreign western doctors. Or China is willing to pay top dollar for black guys in the NBA to come play in China. Or Drogba playing soccer in China. Can they train their own basketball and soccer players? Probably, but no where near the quality of the NBA/premier league players and have to import them in.

However this isn't a professional athlete, its a coal miner, a position that can relatively be easily trained. Principle of substitution.

People that work in sweatshops in third world countries are better off because of the manufacturing is there, cause it provides jobs to those poor areas.

[iEatClams]

Originally Posted by MindBomber

Globalization is a reality, very few intelligent people would attempt to prevent that from occurring because it would be an entirely futile battle. I suggest, this proposal is a radical divergence from the style of globalization we have seen thus far and it is very troubling given the current state of international relations.

The proposed mine will be:
-funded through Chinese investment.
-supplying coal to Chinese industry.
-staffed entirely by Chinese workers.

A traditional mine would be:
-funded through various nations.
-supplying coal to more than one nation (read: diversification)
-staffed by Canadian workers with the exception of a few highly specialized positions.

The benefits of this mine to Canadians will be (because it is our non-renewable resource, afterall):
-finite corporate tax revenue.
-finite income tax revenue.
-limited supply related positions (ie. trucking, trains)

The benefits of a traditional mine to Canadians would be:
-finite corporate tax revenue.
-infinite income tax revenue.
-MASSIVE economic stimulus to the surrounding area to support workers (usually a town would arise in support of a mine, that's hundreds of additional jobs for Canadians and millions in income tax revenue, instead there will be a company owned town)
-worker wages spent in Canada (nationwide, like the oil sands)
-limited supply related positions (see above).
-the training of skilled workers within Canada so the, "there's no skilled hard rock miners in Canada to work a mine" argument, won't occur again.

That works out to this massive, damaging exploitation of a Canadian non-renewable resource for a small fraction of the potential benefits.

Then there's the Chinese coal miner factor -

The company can deny it all they like, a worker trained in an environment where dangerous practices fly will bring them over the pacific to work in Canada. Anyone who has spent a significant amount of time working construction, mining, logging, etc. has had new hires with dangerous habits brought on and let go because they couldn't be trained out of them.

There's also the HIGH risk that the company exploits the workers, they'll pay them a fair wage but charge them $40 for breakfast because they can only live in the company town.

You can say, giving these workers jobs will help them feed their families.

I'll say great, I don't give a fuck about their families. I'm not the perfect humanitarian, I won't give you my jacket on a brisk morning to keep you warm and walk away freezing. China doesn't give a damn about paying miners fair wages in country to benefit those people, why should I take a hit to benefit them?

You can say, but poor Chinese workers built the railroad so this should be okay!

Well, you also say, poor Chinese workers building the railroad was a massive human rights violation, and suggest the workers descendants should be compensated. You can't argue the Chinese railroad workers were done an injustice, then cite that as a reason why this should be okay.

You can say, but we buy products that are made in China, like car speakers!

Yeah, well, buying Chinese built speakers doesn't detract from the supply of a finite resource and damage the environment. I also don't have a damn choice, because I've never heard of Canadian built iPhones.

You can say, no Canadians want the jobs.

I know two people who were thrilled when they got jobs in mining, because the logging industry is hurting and it's much closer to home than the oil fields. Give finding Canadian workers a shot, I'd feel A LOT better about outsourcing the jobs then.

and.... I'll cut my little rant off there.

awesome post.

[guava]

Originally Posted by spyker

last fucking thing we need is to have the mining vehicles dressed up in hideous tasteless MM Design wrap.

We seriously hate seeing that shit here,so we difinately don't want that shit spreading across Canada.

U r living with so much hatred. It's not good for u.
Posted via RS Mobile

[68style]

Anyone who believes the coal mining company's statement that they can't find workers here can't see the tip of their own nose......................... what a load of bullshit. They didn't try, they just want to cut their costs and not hire locally and that is the entire reason this is happening.