REVscene - Vancouver Automotive Forum


Welcome to the REVscene Automotive Forum forums.

Registration is Free!You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! The banners on the left side and below do not show for registered users!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   REVscene Automotive Forum > Automotive Chat > Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events

Vancouver Off-Topic / Current Events The off-topic forum for Vancouver, funnies, non-auto centered discussions, WORK SAFE. While the rules are more relaxed here, there are still rules. Please refer to sticky thread in this forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-16-2012, 12:46 AM   #201
Hacked RS to become a mod
 
SkinnyPupp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sunny Hong Kong
Posts: 42,017
Thanked 17,634 Times in 5,341 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vafanculo View Post
Could be a hobby, or collection. Some people like to horde shoes, maybe their fetish were guns.

But, if that were the case, the mom is an idiot for not locking them away safely.

But, it said he failed to buy a gun the day before, so did her mom buy these, or did he?
Ok so if normal people collect things like shoes or model toys, who collects killing instruments? Not model guns or replicas mind you, actual guns that kill people (like herself for instance)
Posted via RS Mobile
Advertisement
SkinnyPupp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 01:01 AM   #202
Willing to sell body for a few minutes on RS
 
Manic!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Nanaimo
Posts: 10,407
Thanked 3,822 Times in 1,747 Posts
One of the victims had just moved with their family from Winnipeg two months ago.

Girl killed in Connecticut shooting lived in Winnipeg - Manitoba - CBC News
__________________
I don't need an amplifier I'm already big, best on any track call me the Stig - Shizzo

Dusty Nuggets Rusty Shackleford Cuntar
Manic! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 01:22 AM   #203
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
jlo mein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: burnaby
Posts: 2,697
Thanked 356 Times in 170 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
I did not at any point insult educators, nor would I ever. I'll elaborate further.

A person who reacts to something in a moment of need, spontaneously without predilection, is not comparable to a person poised and actively training for that aforementioned moment.
Any fight will be determined by three factors: mindset, training, and tools. You must have the mindset that you will stop the threat regardless of harm to yourself and you will not back down. The principal and several teachers in this incident showed they had this proper mindset. Mindset is the only part of the three that cannot be given or learned.

For educators that have the right mindset, all they need is the training and tools. They can be trained to use weapons to defend themselves and students. Believe it or not, if educators were given one week and then 2 days per year afterwards of firearms and active shooter training, they would be more trained than half the Law Enforcement officers in North America.

Quote:
Israel is at war, it is being attacked by nations with a clear agenda. Israel cannot prevent the attacks from occurring, because they are launched or facilitated by sovereign foreign powers which they cannot influence.
Israel HAS prevented attacks from occuring. Since the Ma'alot Massacre in 1974 which followed many other terrorist shootings at schools, Israel has armed civilians at many school grounds. Since then, terrorist gunman attacking Israeli schools has been virtually non-existent. One 2002 incident involved no students harmed, and the armed civilians killing a terrorist gunman.

Quote:
America has the power to influence the people who attack it, because the attacks arise internally and are facilitated by policies on guns and treatment of the mentally ill.
Agreed. So it comes down to two different solutions to a problem with many favouring one. Yet that one solution doesn't prevent the problem, it only attempts to deal with the means to commit a tragedy.

I think it was posted earlier in this thread: society has no problems blaming a tool or machine because it cannot be personified and has no logic or reason of its own. Society cannot blame the person because that would mean society failed him.

Quote:
MAJOR societal changes are not accounted for in these charts.
I agree. I was hoping that posting these diagrams would lead to a dialogue, especially the American CCW and homicide statistics. I would like to know what evidence everyone has of other changes from 1991 to 2010 that could lead to the homicide rate dropping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyBishop View Post
Though certainly pertinent, that correlation is definitely not as clear cut as you make it out to be. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the relationship is strictly spurious, but to ignore other factors would be extremely shortsighted.
That's the right thing to wonder. I urge you to now counter those diagrams, especially the American one since this is about American shootings. Especially interesting is that the scope (1991-2010) encompasses the entire American Assault Weapons Ban, from 1994-2004, yet in 2010 homicides are still below 1991 levels.

I find this very relevant because all these shooting incidents are happening around the time Obama is talking about renewing the Assault Weapons Ban. Is the Assault Weapons Ban effective at preventing these incidents? (aside: the Columbine shooting occured in 1999 while the Assault Weapons Ban was still in place). Is it a "feel good" law that gives people a false sense of security without addressing the root issue?
jlo mein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 01:46 AM   #204
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
jlo mein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: burnaby
Posts: 2,697
Thanked 356 Times in 170 Posts
Looking up the 1999 Columbine shooting now and the aftermath is very intriguing. This is a similar type event with high media coverage that occured 13 years ago now.

Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
A United States Secret Service study concluded that schools... should be paying more attention to the pre-attack behaviors of students. Zero-tolerance policies and metal detectors "are unlikely to be helpful," ....The researchers focused on questions concerning the reliance on SWAT teams when most attacks are over before police arrive
Most schools have now implemented "lockdown" plans in case of active shooter scenarios. Teachers at the elementary school shooting followed this plan. The plan is to lock your classrooms and wait for police assistance. Notice that this contradicts the Secret Service study which raises concerns of over reliance on police intervention.

Does a lockdown plan save lives? I'm very sure it saved many lives in this most recent incident. Did it do anything to help the 26 victims shot? No.

Quote:
In May 2002 the Secret Service published a report that examined 37 US school shootings. They had the following findings:
Incidents of targeted violence at school were rarely sudden, impulsive acts.
Prior to most incidents, other people knew about the attacker's idea and/or plan to attack.
Most attackers engaged in some behavior prior to the incident that caused others concern or indicated a need for help.
What is VERY interesting in the Wiki article is that it has a whole section dedicated to gun control measures implemented afterwards, but only has ONE sentence related to addressing the behavior of the perpetrators:

"some schools across America have renewed existing anti-bullying policies"

Further reading has revealed to me that most of these anti-bullying policies involve no preventative measures, they only suspend or expel students that are accused of bullying. This contradicts the Secret Service study posted in the Wiki page which states "expulsion is the spark that pushes some to return to school with a gun".

Why is it that after all of these events that happen time and again, everyone lobbies for gun control, and new gun control measures are actually implemented with shootings still happening, yet very little of the aftermath discusses the psychopaths themselves?

Wikipedia Virginia Tech Massacre
-A whole section dedicated to gun politics, absolutely no mention of mental health measures

Wikipedia Aurora Colorado Theatre Massacre
-Section dedicated to gun politics, no mention of mental health measures

Last edited by jlo mein; 12-16-2012 at 02:03 AM.
jlo mein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 01:53 AM   #205
Even when im right, revscene.net is still right!
 
Yodamaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burnaby, BC
Posts: 1,324
Thanked 1,481 Times in 465 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp View Post
Ok so if normal people collect things like shoes or model toys, who collects killing instruments? Not model guns or replicas mind you, actual guns that kill people (like herself for instance)
Posted via RS Mobile
People who enjoy target shooting? People who are interested in the history surrounding firearms?

You really need to stop making it seem like gun owners are nuts for having a hobby. Firearms are pieces of metal, plastic, and wood, what makes the owner a nut is how he chooses to use one.


We don't need any of the fancy cars out there, most are deemed to be too fast for the street, yet thousands of people are interested in collecting mobile hunks of steel that weigh thousands of pounds and can be driven at speeds exceeding 100 miles per hour.

It's all in how you use it, and where. There have been plenty of fatal incidents involving vehicles, hit and runs, drunk driving, you name it. None of those incidents mean that owning a car makes you less mentally stable. Sure, guns may have been invented to kill, but there's more to them than death and destruction nowadays.


Notice how licensing and regulations do not stop people from using vehicles to kill others, whether it's an accident or not.

Last edited by Yodamaster; 12-16-2012 at 02:10 AM.
Yodamaster is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 02:38 AM   #206
Wanna have a threesome?
 
MindBomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,886
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,656 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlo mein View Post
Any fight will be determined by three factors: mindset, training, and tools. You must have the mindset that you will stop the threat regardless of harm to yourself and you will not back down. The principal and several teachers in this incident showed they had this proper mindset. Mindset is the only part of the three that cannot be given or learned.

For educators that have the right mindset, all they need is the training and tools. They can be trained to use weapons to defend themselves and students. Believe it or not, if educators were given one week and then 2 days per year afterwards of firearms and active shooter training, they would be more trained than half the Law Enforcement officers in North America.
I've already responded to your thoughts on teachers training for urban combat scenarios part-time, and you've not said anything that even attempts to dispel any of my prior responses in this passage.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, short of re-iterating the point from my prior response: the psychological profile associated with a person capable of spontaneously responding to an act, is not comparable to a person capable of arranging and training for a pre-planned response to an act. The qualities that makes a person a good kindergarten teacher are juxtaposed to those that make a person a good police officer.

Quote:
Israel HAS prevented attacks from occuring. Since the Ma'alot Massacre in 1974 which followed many other terrorist shootings at schools, Israel has armed civilians at many school grounds. Since then, terrorist gunman attacking Israeli schools has been virtually non-existent. One 2002 incident involved no students harmed, and the armed civilians killing a terrorist gunman.
I'll give you that Israel's approach of protecting schools might be effective, but the issue in the Middle East is complicated and I'm not familiar enough with it to carry on much further. I return to my basic point, because Israel cannot control access to the weapons used to attack its people the attacks will continually occur. In Israel, if the attacks are not executed by gunman they will be car bombs, if not executed by car bombs they will be by missiles, the enemies attack will perpetually attack the weakest target and civilians continue to die. Americas terrorists are fundamentally different in that they arise internally, so a different approach is needed.

Quote:
Agreed. So it comes down to two different solutions to a problem with many favouring one. Yet that one solution doesn't prevent the problem, it only attempts to deal with the means to commit a tragedy.

I think it was posted earlier in this thread: society has no problems blaming a tool or machine because it cannot be personified and has no logic or reason of its own. Society cannot blame the person because that would mean society failed him.
Guns are designed to enable humans to easily kill humans.

Guns used for hunting enable humans to easily kill non-human animals, not much of a difference there though.

Guns used for target shooting substitute paper for humans or non-human animals, but often the targets are images of humans.

Trucks are designed to enable humans to easily transport objects.

Knives are designed to enable humans to easily cut vegetables, boxes, and such.

A person can commit mass assault or murder with a truck, and there will be no calls to restrict access to them.

A person can commit mass assault or murder with a knife, and there will be no calls to restrict access to them.

If a person commits assault or murder with a firearm, there will be an instant response to restrict access to them.

Why?

A person who commits mass assault or murder with a truck or knife is grossly manipulating the intent of its design.

A person who commits mass assault or murder with a firearm is using it for the purpose it was designed.

I do find the earlier idea interesting, and there's some truth in it.

It's not completely unjustified that some fault is given to firearms though, they're fufilling the purpose of their design.

There needs to be a better system for catching the people before they fall so low. It is a very difficult proposal to catch all those people, and restricting the access of those who slip through the cracks to have to firearms effectively limits the harm they can do.

Quote:
I agree. I was hoping that posting these diagrams would lead to a dialogue, especially the American CCW and homicide statistics. I would like to know what evidence everyone has of other changes from 1991 to 2010 that could lead to the homicide rate dropping.

That's the right thing to wonder. I urge you to now counter those diagrams, especially the American one since this is about American shootings. Especially interesting is that the scope (1991-2010) encompasses the entire American Assault Weapons Ban, from 1994-2004, yet in 2010 homicides are still below 1991 levels.

I find this very relevant because all these shooting incidents are happening around the time Obama is talking about renewing the Assault Weapons Ban. Is the Assault Weapons Ban effective at preventing these incidents? (aside: the Columbine shooting occured in 1999 while the Assault Weapons Ban was still in place). Is it a "feel good" law that gives people a false sense of security without addressing the root issue?
Here's an article that attributes the decline to a number of possibilities: policing strategies, sentencing strategies, the state of the economy, the decline in cocaine use, and... iron levels in the blood of children.
Why Crime Keeps Falling - WSJ.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodamaster
It's all in how you use it, and where. There have been plenty of fatal incidents involving vehicles, hit and runs, drunk driving, you name it. None of those incidents mean that owning a car makes you less mentally stable. Sure, guns may have been invented to kill, but there's more to them than death and destruction nowadays.


Notice how licensing and regulations do not stop people from using vehicles to kill others, whether it's an accident or not.
Read my babbling above, I think it's relevant to what you've said here.

Last edited by MindBomber; 12-16-2012 at 02:50 AM.
MindBomber is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 02:42 AM   #207
Hacked RS to become a mod
 
SkinnyPupp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sunny Hong Kong
Posts: 42,017
Thanked 17,634 Times in 5,341 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodamaster View Post
People who enjoy target shooting? People who are interested in the history surrounding firearms?

You really need to stop making it seem like gun owners are nuts for having a hobby. Firearms are pieces of metal, plastic, and wood, what makes the owner a nut is how he chooses to use one.
Actually I am interested in firearms myself, especially the history. I enjoy reading and learning about guns, the companies behind them, etc.

But I don't keep loaded guns around, not just because it would be a pain in the ass to do so, but because it is stupid and pointless.

When I want to go shooting, I run hit up the gun range in Washington. They have all these guns to choose from, in a controlled environment, where guns belong - on the shooting range. Not in your fucking closet. There is no good reason to keep guns and ammo in your home, even if you're a huge gun buff. Collect the guns, take it to the range to shoot, but why do you need ammo right there with the gun? There is literally nothing good that can come from it.
SkinnyPupp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 02:43 AM   #208
Orgasm Donor & Alatar owned my ass twice!
 
DanHibiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 6,856
Thanked 4,386 Times in 1,145 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodamaster View Post
People who enjoy target shooting? People who are interested in the history surrounding firearms?

You really need to stop making it seem like gun owners are nuts for having a hobby. Firearms are pieces of metal, plastic, and wood, what makes the owner a nut is how he chooses to use one.


We don't need any of the fancy cars out there, most are deemed to be too fast for the street, yet thousands of people are interested in collecting mobile hunks of steel that weigh thousands of pounds and can be driven at speeds exceeding 100 miles per hour.

It's all in how you use it, and where. There have been plenty of fatal incidents involving vehicles, hit and runs, drunk driving, you name it. None of those incidents mean that owning a car makes you less mentally stable. Sure, guns may have been invented to kill, but there's more to them than death and destruction nowadays.


Notice how licensing and regulations do not stop people from using vehicles to kill others, whether it's an accident or not.
But the purpose of a car is transportation. It was never designed with the idea it could kill someone. Sure it could kill and has but it's a trade off we make because the benefits out weigh the risk. Fire could kill too but it serves a even bigger purpose in life.

Guns were designed to kill and nothing more. It's a hobby for many but I don't see the benefits of allowing people to carry weapons to outweigh the cost.
Posted via RS Mobile
DanHibiki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 02:57 AM   #209
RS.net, where our google ads make absolutely no sense!
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: vancouver
Posts: 965
Thanked 410 Times in 85 Posts
We don't need Jesus, We need Magneto so that we can collect all the guns together and keep one for himself so that he can rule America!

Arguing about Gun control is like saying We need AIDS control cuz AIDS is bad. No shit, I think we all know that.

But its too late, you can't convince half of America to give up all their guns. The genie is out the bag. So I guess they just have to accept that innocents will die every year because of this necessity to be armed in case the US government turns on its own people cough Patriot Act cough
__________________
Give them nothing, but take from them... EVERYTHING!!! - King Leonides


7seven: I really can't stand all these idiots who hit the gym now just because they watched 300 and want to be like a spartan. Case in point, this skinny guy comes into the gym the other day, must have only weighed ~ 140lbs, loads on 2 plates on the bench rack, mutters to himself, for sparta, unracks the barbell and proceeds to drop it directly on his chest.
Valour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 03:11 AM   #210
I contribute to threads in the offtopic forum
 
jlo mein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: burnaby
Posts: 2,697
Thanked 356 Times in 170 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
I've already responded to your thoughts on teachers training for urban combat scenarios part-time, and you've not said anything that even attempts to dispel any of my prior responses in this passage.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, short of re-iterating the point from my prior response
I believed I did, but I guess we've reached a stagnant point in this debate. My main point on educators remains that many actively tried to stop the shooter bare handed. They are not cowards.


Quote:
I'll give you that Israel's approach of protecting schools might be effective, but the issue in the Middle East is complicated and I'm not familiar enough with it to carry on much further. I return to my basic point, because Israel cannot control access to the weapons used to attack its people the attacks will continually occur. In Israel, if the attacks are not executed by gunman they will be car bombs, if not executed by car bombs they will be by missiles, the enemies attack will perpetually attack the weakest target and civilians continue to die. Americas terrorists are fundamentally different in that they arise internally, so a different approach is needed.
I admire you pointing out the flaws in this comparison, because it leads me into another argument: method of attack. You mention if guns are not used, attacks will come via other means.

While attacks on Israel and America are different, the same logic of method used applies. If not guns, home made bombs, knives, etc. Controlling guns is society avoiding the base issue which is mentally ill people are being ignored in America to the point where they justify themselves making these attacks.

You made a previous argument that making bombs is difficult to learn or do for the average person. The Aurora theatre shooter booby trapped his apartment with home made bombs. If you take away one method, psychopaths will find another.

2012 Aurora shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
There needs to be a better system for catching the people before they fall so low. It is a very difficult proposal to catch all those people, and restricting the access of those who slip through the cracks to have to firearms effectively limits the harm they can do.
I'm glad we're starting to agree on some points here. I believe society and media puts a disproportionate amount of lobbying and effort into gun control versus mental health. As in one of my previous posts, in the aftermath of several high profile shootings (Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora movie theatre), much discussion took place on gun control and virtually none on mental wellness. Perhaps a combination of the two is going to be the most effective solution, but I believe little progress will be made while almost 100% of the effort is on gun control.

Quote:
Here's an article that attributes the decline to a number of possibilities: policing strategies, sentencing strategies, the state of the economy, the decline in cocaine use, and... iron levels in the blood of children.
Why Crime Keeps Falling - WSJ.com
This article makes no mention of homicide, not even generally about violent crimes, and instead focuses on property/monetary crimes. While listing off a long list of possible reasons for decline in property crime, even far fetched ideas as heavy metals in the bloodstream, it doesn't once mention armed citizens. In his studies this author must have encountered that argument at least once, which makes me believe he has a bias on the issue.

I would still love to be presented with an article dispelling causation between increasing armed citizens and decreasing homicide rates.

Last edited by jlo mein; 12-16-2012 at 03:17 AM.
jlo mein is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 03:22 AM   #211
Even when im right, revscene.net is still right!
 
Yodamaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burnaby, BC
Posts: 1,324
Thanked 1,481 Times in 465 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp View Post
Actually I am interested in firearms myself, especially the history. I enjoy reading and learning about guns, the companies behind them, etc.

But I don't keep loaded guns around, not just because it would be a pain in the ass to do so, but because it is stupid and pointless.

When I want to go shooting, I run hit up the gun range in Washington. They have all these guns to choose from, in a controlled environment, where guns belong - on the shooting range. Not in your fucking closet. There is no good reason to keep guns and ammo in your home, even if you're a huge gun buff. Collect the guns, take it to the range to shoot, but why do you need ammo right there with the gun? There is literally nothing good that can come from it.

Your original remark was that simply owning multiple firearms meant that you must have some sort of mental problem. You didn't add the part about ammo or having the guns actually loaded until now.

There is no reason for a gun to be loaded if you only intend to use it at a range, I'm not disputing that, because I already agree.

The only part I have a problem with, is the ammo arguement. Anybody that has owned a firearm, knows that you have to experiment with yours to find what ammo is best for it. A gun range is not guaranteed to have the spec of ammo your firearm operates safely with.

But even then, your ammo and weaponry are supposed to be separated in a locked container, in a safe.


My parents are strongly against having guns in the apartment, but we've come to the agreement that they would be safe enough at our shop (in an industrial area).
Yodamaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 03:48 AM   #212
y'all better put some respeck on my name
 
Harvey Specter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 17,743
Thanked 8,025 Times in 2,085 Posts
I really hate to say this but I highly doubt you'll see any new gun laws even after this massacre. The gun lobby is too powerful and way too many elected officials are linked to the NRA and other lobby groups, they would never vote for laws that would ban or restrict guns because it risks losing elections.
Harvey Specter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 03:53 AM   #213
Hacked RS to become a mod
 
SkinnyPupp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sunny Hong Kong
Posts: 42,017
Thanked 17,634 Times in 5,341 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodamaster View Post
Your original remark was that simply owning multiple firearms meant that you must have some sort of mental problem. You didn't add the part about ammo or having the guns actually loaded until now.

There is no reason for a gun to be loaded if you only intend to use it at a range, I'm not disputing that, because I already agree.

The only part I have a problem with, is the ammo arguement. Anybody that has owned a firearm, knows that you have to experiment with yours to find what ammo is best for it. A gun range is not guaranteed to have the spec of ammo your firearm operates safely with.

But even then, your ammo and weaponry are supposed to be separated in a locked container, in a safe.


My parents are strongly against having guns in the apartment, but we've come to the agreement that they would be safe enough at our shop (in an industrial area).
Yes, I suppose I should have made that clear. I have nothing against guns or owning guns as a hobby. My main point is that to live in a safe, quiet community, and think you need several loaded guns with ammo, especially weapons that are specifically made for self defense, there is something going on in your head that makes you think unclearly. Whether it's a mental issue like insanity, or just straight up paranoia, I couldn't say.

To me, the main thing is that nothing good can come from that situation. Only bad.
SkinnyPupp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:18 AM   #214
Head Moderator
 
Lomac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1982
Location: Great White Nor
Posts: 22,590
Thanked 6,400 Times in 2,052 Posts
There's an inherent flaw in comparing gun ownership to owning multiple vehicles. As has already been stated, vehicles were built with a vastly different purpose in mind when compared to a firearm. Yes, a car can be used to drive through a crowd full of people, but that doesn't mean it was built for the purpose. Virtually anything laying around you can be used as a weapon. Sure, most would be pretty useless, but some can be quite deadly.

If anything, compare firearms to a bow and arrow, or even a crossbow. The latter two have been long since phased out as old technology, yet people still go to an archery range and fire off some arrows. Hell, I know someone who still hunts with one. They were bred for the same purpose as firearms: to hunt and kill. Doesn't stop it from being fun to play around with, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkinnyPupp View Post
Actually I am interested in firearms myself, especially the history. I enjoy reading and learning about guns, the companies behind them, etc.

But I don't keep loaded guns around, not just because it would be a pain in the ass to do so, but because it is stupid and pointless.

When I want to go shooting, I run hit up the gun range in Washington. They have all these guns to choose from, in a controlled environment, where guns belong - on the shooting range. Not in your fucking closet. There is no good reason to keep guns and ammo in your home, even if you're a huge gun buff. Collect the guns, take it to the range to shoot, but why do you need ammo right there with the gun? There is literally nothing good that can come from it.
While I'm not a firearm owner, I know many people who are. I used to go to DVC many, many times. I still go into the bush (usually out in Mission, at "Little Iraq") with my friends and shoot of a bunch of rounds. Every one we meet up there are also responsible and make sure there's no issues with cross shooting. Police also love to patrol that area, so that's an even bigger incentive to make sure everything is going by the book.

Shooting at a range can be fun, especially if you're looking to fire off a gun you don't own, but there are often restrictions. Typically, indoor ranges don't allow center fire rifles and limit the calibre you can use. Many outdoor ranges are the same as well.

To address the fact that no one needs to own a gun in their house... to a certain degree I agree. If you live in a Yaletown condo or reside in a random suburb of the GVRD, that's more or less true. There's no "real reason" why you need to have a firearm locked up in your place of residence. The laws are clearly not on the defendants side if a burglar breaks in and you shoot him. That's been made clear multiple times in the past. However, for many people who live outside of the GVRD (or any major metropolis in Canada), a rifle is often a necessity. My best friend lives in the middle of butt fuck nowhere land, on property that often sees many top-chain animals of prey roaming through it on any given week. Add to that fact that she has two young daughters to watch out for, and a rifle suddenly becomes an attractive proposition. And keep in mind she only has twenty acres to contend with. Many of her neighbours and family friends have multiple hectres of land to look after. Their crops and livestock are constantly under watch by wolves, coyotes, bears and other animals. For people like these, a firearm is simply part of their tools: typically not needed, but glad it's there for when it is.

To touch again on your main point, however, I think restricting guns to only ranges is the wrong step. In Canada, guns and ammo have to be locked up separately from one another. Most owners I know also either take out the firing pin or put a trigger lock on when they know it wont be used for a while. Responsible gun owners such as these are the ones that suffer when the government pulls it's knee jerk reaction. No, it's not "hard" to get your PAL, but it's a long enough process that it would deter the typical hot-headed person from deciding to get a gun and shooting up a populated area. Again, you say that there's no "real reason" to own a gun, but what about responsible hobbyists? A guy I know collects pre-WW2 prohibited handguns. Many aren't in working condition anymore, but some are. These guns are as much interest to a firearms historian as an old 1930's Bolex H-16 film camera is to me.

I would never spout the Second Amendment as a valid reason for gun ownership. Instead, I would say that through proper background checks and formal, government approved methods of training, gun ownership should be open to all who pass. Banning firearms entirely will never solve mass murders and it only ends up affecting those who are responsible.

That is, of course, simply based on ownership. Tackling mental health issues is another thing entirely and one I wont bother going into.
Lomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:19 AM   #215
Wanna have a threesome?
 
MindBomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Squamish
Posts: 4,886
Thanked 5,052 Times in 1,656 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlo mein View Post
I believed I did, but I guess we've reached a stagnant point in this debate. My main point on educators remains that many actively tried to stop the shooter bare handed. They are not cowards.
I might not be presenting my point clearly, it's been a very long week.

I do not think that teachers are cowards, not at all.

Quote:
I admire you pointing out the flaws in this comparison, because it leads me into another argument: method of attack. You mention if guns are not used, attacks will come via other means.

While attacks on Israel and America are different, the same logic of method used applies. If not guns, home made bombs, knives, etc. Controlling guns is society avoiding the base issue which is mentally ill people are being ignored in America to the point where they justify themselves making these attacks.

You made a previous argument that making bombs is difficult to learn or do for the average person. The Aurora theatre shooter booby trapped his apartment with home made bombs. If you take away one method, psychopaths will find another.

2012 Aurora shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm glad we're starting to agree on some points here. I believe society and media puts a disproportionate amount of lobbying and effort into gun control versus mental health. As in one of my previous posts, in the aftermath of several high profile shootings (Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora movie theatre), much discussion took place on gun control and virtually none on mental wellness. Perhaps a combination of the two is going to be the most effective solution, but I believe little progress will be made while almost 100% of the effort is on gun control.
It is impossible to prevent a person set on murder from committing it if they can freely move within the general public.

If I chose, I could go to a hardware store and find a dozen instruments to kill in as many minutes.

Whether I find a hammer, axe, chainsaw, nail gun, or knife at the hardware store, none of those items would be anywhere near as capable as a firearm, and that's the whole point. Firearms are very good at what they've be designed to do; they're so good at it they've changed the outcome of wars, and revolutionized society.

I do not dispute, controlling firearms is a pathetic alternative to catching mentally ill people before they reach such a low level. I don't think it's possible for society to catch all mentally ill people though, no matter how much effort is applied to the task. Humans, are, humans, we're very flawed and limited in our abilities. The US army officer who went on a killing spree at Fort Hood, BTK serial killer, and Canadian army pilot serial killer, are very good examples of just how difficult it is to catch everyone.

If we accept that it's simply not possible to kill everyone, restricting access to firearms can limit the damage they're capable of doing.

One minor correction - I didn't say an IED was difficult for an average person to build, only that is more difficult than legally purchasing a gun.

Quote:
This article makes no mention of homicide, not even generally about violent crimes, and instead focuses on property/monetary crimes. While listing off a long list of possible reasons for decline in property crime, even far fetched ideas as heavy metals in the bloodstream, it doesn't once mention armed citizens. In his studies this author must have encountered that argument at least once, which makes me believe he has a bias on the issue.

I would still love to be presented with an article dispelling causation between increasing armed citizens and decreasing homicide rates.
It's difficult to find an article dispelling causation between an increase in armed citizens and decreasing homicide rates, because if you enter those search words into Google you will receive dozens of fanatically pro-gun American pages offering conclusions based on questionable evidence. I would concede if those pages offered very good evidence, but they don't, and they're written by the type of people who support private citizen armies (ad hominem, I know).

Here's another article, it focuses more on violent crime, but applies the same basic reasoning:

Spoiler!


Everything it points out sounds more plausible than guns detering crime, except maybe the lead thing. If guns do deter crime, how could America have such high crime rates, despite having so many guns compared to other areas of the world?
MindBomber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:22 AM   #216
MOD MOD MOD MOD MOD
 
nabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: vancouver
Posts: 5,526
Thanked 3,333 Times in 1,061 Posts
Think we all need to stop with the political stuff. Yeah it has great value in what you guys are saying. But just think of the children and the other victims, and pray for their families.
__________________
.

Looking for something to do tonight? ====> OFFICIAL MUSIC EVENTS CALENDAR

Spoiler!
nabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:22 AM   #217
Hacked RS to become a mod
 
SkinnyPupp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sunny Hong Kong
Posts: 42,017
Thanked 17,634 Times in 5,341 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah Dean View Post
I really hate to say this but I highly doubt you'll see any new gun laws even after this massacre. The gun lobby is too powerful and way too many elected officials are linked to the NRA and other lobby groups, they would never vote for laws that would ban or restrict guns because it risks losing elections.
As much as I think owning a loaded gun at home and/or carrying one around is stupid, I also don't agree with banning them. The government controlling people that much is never a good thing, especially when the government is as inept as the one in America.

Take a look at the article I posted a while back about Japan. They have super strict gun control - and it is working. However look at the rights the people had to give up to do it. It might work there, maybe because that's just the way it's always been. But for the government to straight up ban guns goes directly against why they were allowed to carry them in the first place.

It's really tricky... I hate the government - especially federal - telling people what they can and can't do.

Something does need to happen though, maybe something along the lines of banning the ability to have guns and ammo in the same place, or something like that.
SkinnyPupp is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 04:23 AM   #218
Hacked RS to become a mod
 
SkinnyPupp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sunny Hong Kong
Posts: 42,017
Thanked 17,634 Times in 5,341 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nabs View Post
Think we all need to stop with the political stuff. Yeah it has great value in what you guys are saying. But just think of the children and the other victims, and pray for their families.
And then what? Wait until the next attack?
SkinnyPupp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:30 AM   #219
Orgasm Donor & Alatar owned my ass twice!
 
DanHibiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 6,856
Thanked 4,386 Times in 1,145 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by nabs View Post
Think we all need to stop with the political stuff. Yeah it has great value in what you guys are saying. But just think of the children and the other victims, and pray for their families.
I think it's because we are all thinking of the children and victims that we're having this debate.

We're all heartbroken and angry and want something done that can lessen the chance of this happening again.
__________________
GO Canucks GO!

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) hi there
(づ。◕‿‿◕。)づ・。*。✧・゜゜・。✧。*・゜゜・✧。・$$$$$゜゜・。*。・゜*✧ .


xxx~*…like dis post if u cry evry time…~*xxx
DanHibiki is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 04:47 AM   #220
rsx
Los Bastardo owned my ass at least once
 
rsx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 6,223
Thanked 3,381 Times in 805 Posts
I lay the blame on the parent(s). Not the guns. There are too many irresponsible parents out there. Violence or drug/alcohol abuse stems from poor parenting. If the kid does have mental health issues, a stupid prepper mother shouldn't be buying guns and ammo and storing it in the house.

Personally, I think if any minor commits a crime, the parents should be held as accountable and be laid with the same charges. It's like have a potentially vicious dog loose in the neighborhood - the owner in the end is held responsible.
rsx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2012, 04:48 AM   #221
y'all better put some respeck on my name
 
Harvey Specter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 17,743
Thanked 8,025 Times in 2,085 Posts
I was just watching Fox News and CNN and it's refreshing to see them finally talking about the other major issue in America that is directly linked to mass shootings which is mental health and the collapsing mental health industry. The indusry has been in decline because insurance companies are finding ways not to pay for issues related to mental health. It's the same problem up here; prefect example is the story about that guy last week that almost killed those 3 elderly women in DT. He went to St. Paul's a few days before the attack asking for help and he was turned away, the mentally ill have nowhere to turn.

And I can't stand people who say "I have a friend who has mental issues but he/she would never kill innocent children", news flash: not all mental illness is the same, it affects people differently and needs to be diagnosed individually.
Harvey Specter is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 04:49 AM   #222
I signed up to a Zionist website and all the Illuminati gave me was this lousy usertitle
 
CharlesInCharge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 1,608
Thanked 527 Times in 292 Posts
The TRUE SOURCE of RANDOM & MASS SHOOTINGS and VIOLENCE
Video description
... is crusading to STOP mandatory mental screening and forced drugging of our children. This video highlights the link between psychiatric drugs and acts of senseless violence, including nearly all recent mass-shootings and school shootings.
Discover more truth about Psychiatry's evil reign as the true shadow governments that have a chokehold on all sectors of society



With all the sadistic and degenerate media that is shown on our TV's and movies, couple that with the drugs and poverty rates in the U.S. ... you'd be stupid not to have arms in your home. Whether its for the fear of a night time attacker, day time house invasion, or another bank schemed depression causing nation wide chaos... making it known you have a weapon when there's intruders could save ones life or from you and your family being raped.

If suspects and deranged persons know citizens are armed, they would think twice about doing such crime and would only have the upper hand against weak defenseless individuals.
Same with the political situation, intellectuals knew elites will eventually encroach on America, citizens having guns is one layer of protection in keeping some sort of sovereignty.
CharlesInCharge is online now   Reply With Quote
This post FAILED by:
Old 12-16-2012, 07:03 AM   #223
Banned By Establishment
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 5,376
Thanked 435 Times in 189 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBomber View Post
Right, because the people with a mental disposition appropriate for educating elementary students are often equally suited to a role as a close-quarters urban combat soldier.

Best post in this thread.
Jason00S2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 11:17 AM   #224
resident Oil Guru
 
LiquidTurbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,716
Thanked 10,457 Times in 1,794 Posts
LiquidTurbo is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Old 12-16-2012, 11:50 AM   #225
Hypa owned my ass at least once
 
Noir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Japan
Posts: 6,747
Thanked 1,314 Times in 540 Posts
A good look at what's its like to parent someone with mental illness; a parent who's someday worried that she may be raising her own Dylan Klebold or Eric Harris but doesn't have the heart to send him to jail.

This article really focuses on the problem of dealing with mental illness rather than gun control.

The Anarchist Soccer Mom

Spoiler!
Noir is offline   Reply With Quote
This post thanked by:
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Revscene.net cannot be held accountable for the actions of its members nor does the opinions of the members represent that of Revscene.net