Massacre at Elementary School in USA

[Jason00S2000]

The Anarchist Soccer Mom sounds like a bitch.

There is not enough to tell you WHY the kid acts that way towards his mom. I bet there's no father in the picture.

[GLOW]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

IMO there is no way to "control" 300 million guns.
Posted via RS Mobile

that's what i'm thinking...unless you some how limit ammunition availability and the materials to create it?

[Graeme S]

The biggest problem here is the general opposition in the US to federal laws and federal regulation. As long as each state is allowed to make its own completely and totally independent laws, there will be no solution. It's all well and good to ban certain types of weapons or require licensing for weapons in one state, but if I can hop across the state line and get a Saturday night special, what's the point at all?

[jlo mein]

I'm sure everyone here knows that Obama has been quietly mentioning renewing the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) for several months now. Rumours are coming up that it's the likely gun control method he will propose in the coming weeks.

The AWB was a feel good law introduced by the Clinton administration in 1994. It ran for a predetermined 10 years until 2004. The AWB did not stop the Columbine shooting in 1999. Many other public shootings happened during thistime.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied the "assault weapon" ban and other gun control attempts, and found "insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...lt_Weapons_Ban



Masaad Ayoob is a writer and former law enforcement officer. He appeared on the Today Show after the Columbine shooting and has been used as an expert witness in many criminal trials. Here's his take on the Conneticut massacre.

By Massad Ayoob
Saturday, December 15th, 2012

The atrocity at the Connecticut elementary school will not be the last such horror, nor was it the first or even the worst. Go back to the year 1764, in what is now Franklin County, Pennsylvania. The first: during Pontiac’s Rebellion in the wake of the French and Indian War, four “warriors” entered a schoolhouse and slaughtered the headmaster and some ten children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac...chool_massacre . The worst: in 1927, a crazed monster beat his wife to death, then triggered a bombing in an elementary school in Bath, Michigan, killing some 38 kids and several adults. Bath School disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .


I’ll repeat what I said in the Wall Street Journal op-ed section and on theToday show in 1999, after the Columbine High School atrocity: if we simply prepared teachers to handle this type of crisis the way we teach them to handle fires and medical emergencies, the death toll would drop dramatically. We don’t hear of mass deaths of children in school fires these days: fire drills have long since been commonplace, led by trained school staff, not to mention sprinkler systems and smoke alarms and strategically placed fire extinguishers that can nip a blaze in the bud while firefighters are en route. In the past, if someone “dropped dead,” people would cry and wring their hands and wail, “When will the ambulance get here?” Today, almost every responsible adult knows CPR; most schools have easily-operated Automatic Electronic Defibrillators readily accessible; and a heart attack victim’s chance of surviving until the paramedics arrive to take over is now far greater.

The same principle works for defending against mass murders…it just doesn’t work HERE, because it is politically incorrect to employ it HERE. After the Ma’alot massacre in 1974, Israel instituted a policy in which volunteer school personnel, parents, and grandparents received special training from the civil guard, and were seeded throughout the schools armed with discreetly concealed 9mm semiautomatic pistols. Since that time, there has been no successful mass murder at an Israeli school, and every attempt at such has been quickly shortstopped by the good guys’ gunfire, with minimal casualties among the innocent. Similar programs are in place in Peru and the Phillippines, with similarly successful results.

Some people see the logic in the Israeli approach. Dave Workman does, as seen here: http://www.examiner.com/article/obam...id=db_articles. Ann Coulter does, as seen here: http://www.thewrap.com/media/column-...rry-laws-69361 .

Unfortunately, in this country, logic has been buried under political correctness. Those in power whose ego is invested in brie et Chablis values that include scorn for the peasantry they accuse of “clinging to guns and Bibles” will never see that logic. Children will continue to die in gun-free zones hunting preserves for psychopathic murderers, and the cowardly murderers will continue to surrender or kill themselves as soon as armed good guys show up…far too late.

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Massa...inst-monsters/

[drunkrussian]

banning guns is ok with me, i am not a big supporter of guns personally nor will it affect me. Haven't really thought it through though to be honest.

What i do care more about is illegal weapons control, regulation and prevention and help for at risk communities. Since the Afghanistan war started around 2.5k US troops have died. In that same period of time roughly 4.5k people were murdered in chicago, mostly black and mostly via illegal weapons. That's a single city, not a state, not the entire United States army, not a whole country.

the connecticut incident is unique and tragic and something should be looked at to prevent it from happening in the future. But 4.5k is a hell of a lot of people. It should be taken seriously.

[Graeme S]

I'm curious how the pro-gun crowd here would react to the restriction of magazine sizes and full-auto firing weapons?

Even in a society where people insist they have a right to defend themselves, I don't see why a magazine of...let's say greater than 10 rounds would be necessary, nor why they would have to be on full auto. And by restriction I mean banning them except for police/military use. And that would include a ban on conversion units or "spare parts" to repair existing weapons.

[jlo mein]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

I'm curious how the pro-gun crowd here would react to the restriction of magazine sizes and full-auto firing weapons?

Even in a society where people insist they have a right to defend themselves, I don't see why a magazine of...let's say greater than 10 rounds would be necessary, nor why they would have to be on full auto. And by restriction I mean banning them except for police/military use. And that would include a ban on conversion units or "spare parts" to repair existing weapons.

Once again misinformation. Everyone believes fully automatic weapons are legal in America and causing destruction.

No private American citizen can own a fully automatic firearm manufactured after 1986. There are approximately 190,000 registered fully automatic firearms in private ownership today, compared to an estimated 300 million firearms total in private ownership.

The process to acquire and own full auto firearms is much more strict, which includes $200 tax stamp fees, full criminal and mental background checks by the ATF, and a waiting period of 180 days. The cost of acquiring one is extremely high due to the low supply (only pre 1986 existing guns allowed).

Since 1986, I have only found two examples of registered full auto firearms being used in a crime, neither in a psychopath shooting massacre.

Whenever the media reports an assault rifle being used in a shooting: IT IS NOT A FULLY AUTOMATIC FIREARM. Every case I have heard of the media using the term "assault rifle", it has been a semi-automatic rifle no different in actual rate of fire than an ordinary hunting rifle.


You also mention magazine restrictions. First, you suggest an arbitrary number of 10 rounds should be the legal limit for American self defense. Have you been in an American self defense shooting? Have you consulted an expert in American self defense shootings who has studied cases? I can post many documented law enforcement and private citizen shootings where the attacker did not stop even after being shot 10 times.

I won't even answer that for you, I'll give you what you want: Magazine capacity restrictions are already in place in Canada and California. Guess what? It's done nothing to reduce violent crime in California, and I can give you a page here specifically about only Canadian school shootings where magazine restrictions did not help anyone. This is just Canada and doesn't even include all violent crimes, just schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Canada

"Feel good" gun control laws are not effective as concluded by studies I already posted earlier. Please read about the Federal Assault Weapons Ban.

[Graeme S]

I realize and acknowledge the points that you are making, including and especially the fact that Assault Rifle != automatic. However, it's my understanding that while automatic weapons themselves are illegal, that the parts which would allow them to be modified from semi- to fully-automatic are not.

[trollface]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

I'm curious how the pro-gun crowd here would react to the restriction of magazine sizes and full-auto firing weapons?

There already is one...

We can't own FA unless they were grand fathered, even then you can't use it. Our mags are limited to 5 for rifles (exclude rimfire) and 10 for pistols.

[Graeme S]

Interesting and good to know.

Is it guns sold with those magazines that are illegal, or the mags themselves? Also, are you Canadian or American? Because I'm referring to American laws here, not Canadian ones.

[jlo mein]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

I realize and acknowledge the points that you are making, including and especially the fact that Assault Rifle != automatic. However, it's my understanding that while automatic weapons themselves are illegal, that the parts which would allow them to be modified from semi- to fully-automatic are not.

You are posting misinformation. American citizens do not have access to supplies of parts designed to modify semi auto firearms to fully automatic. They are restricted to law enforcement/military only.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8031834AA6syRq

[StylinRed]

Originally Posted by jlo mein

I won't even answer that for you, I'll give you what you want: Magazine capacity restrictions are already in place in Canada and California. Guess what? It's done nothing to reduce violent crime in California, and I can give you a page here specifically about only Canadian school shootings where magazine restrictions did not help anyone. This is just Canada and doesn't even include all violent crimes, just schools.

School shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

how do those instances of violence equate to magazine restrictions being ineffective?

if drawing arbitrary lines in the sand, to try and cut down gun violence, proves pointless then why not just cut guns out of the picture entirely? because getting your panties in a bunch is too great a call to curb/cut down mass murders?

[Hondaracer]

an SKS can be modded to full auto with a vice and some pliers, where there's a will theres a way

as Jlo said magazine restrictions are already in place. However, it's similar to the argument of "controlling" X amount of guns

while there is a ban on large magazines, soooooo many huge banana mag's are still in existance that it would be relatively easy to get your hands on high volume magazines, legal or not

the real problem in enforcing any sort of control are simply the unbelievable number of firearms and accessories floating around the world and US specifically

[trollface]

Originally Posted by Graeme S

I realize and acknowledge the points that you are making, including and especially the fact that Assault Rifle != automatic. However, it's my understanding that while automatic weapons themselves are illegal, that the parts which would allow them to be modified from semi- to fully-automatic are not.

You can't buy parts off the shelf to make a gun FA. This is not like putting new wheels on a car, most of the time the design of the weapon is different. The RCMP bans the import of any firearm that can be made into an automatic for that very reason you stated.

Hondaracer:
Lol, can you really do that to an SKS? They're so cheap to buy here $150 bucks.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by trollface

There already is one...

We can't own FA unless they were grand fathered, even then you can't use it. Our mags are limited to 5 for rifles (exclude rimfire) and 10 for pistols.

according to my buddie's dad who's kind of a gun nut and an ultra-conservative, there are only 6 people in the whole of Canada who still have the fully auto grandfathered rule, and i belive all of them are over 65, once they die no one will have their weapons

[trollface]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

according to my buddie's dad who's kind of a gun nut and an ultra-conservative, there are only 6 people in the whole of Canada who still have the fully auto grandfathered rule, and i belive all of them are over 65, once they die no one will have their weapons

I don't think so? FA just means prohibited class. That class also includes all the stuff that is scary looking from ww2 or small pistols. I ran into someone that had the license and owns an FN FAL in Richmond. Also, many gunsmiths and shops have that license since shops and xfere them to other shops with the license. There is a shop in Van that has a few WW2 Prohibs. So that's 2/6 ppl within 15km. I think there are many more.

[Yodamaster]

Originally Posted by jlo mein

Once again misinformation. Everyone believes fully automatic weapons are legal in America and causing destruction.

No private American citizen can own a fully automatic firearm manufactured after 1986. There are approximately 190,000 registered fully automatic firearms in private ownership today, compared to an estimated 300 million firearms total in private ownership.

The process to acquire and own full auto firearms is much more strict, which includes $200 tax stamp fees, full criminal and mental background checks by the ATF, and a waiting period of 180 days. The cost of acquiring one is extremely high due to the low supply (only pre 1986 existing guns allowed).

Since 1986, I have only found two examples of registered full auto firearms being used in a crime, neither in a psychopath shooting massacre.

Whenever the media reports an assault rifle being used in a shooting: IT IS NOT A FULLY AUTOMATIC FIREARM. Every case I have heard of the media using the term "assault rifle", it has been a semi-automatic rifle no different in actual rate of fire than an ordinary hunting rifle.


You also mention magazine restrictions. First, you suggest an arbitrary number of 10 rounds should be the legal limit for American self defense. Have you been in an American self defense shooting? Have you consulted an expert in American self defense shootings who has studied cases? I can post many documented law enforcement and private citizen shootings where the attacker did not stop even after being shot 10 times.

I won't even answer that for you, I'll give you what you want: Magazine capacity restrictions are already in place in Canada and California. Guess what? It's done nothing to reduce violent crime in California, and I can give you a page here specifically about only Canadian school shootings where magazine restrictions did not help anyone. This is just Canada and doesn't even include all violent crimes, just schools.

School shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Feel good" gun control laws are not effective as concluded by studies I already posted earlier. Please read about the Federal Assault Weapons Ban.

Certain states still allow brand new automatic firearms to be purchased by citizens with a class three license.

[Hondaracer]

Originally Posted by trollface

I don't think so? FA just means prohibited class. That class also includes all the stuff that is scary looking from ww2 or small pistols. I ran into someone that had the license and owns an FN FAL in Richmond. Also, many gunsmiths and shops have that license since shops and xfere them to other shops with the license. There is a shop in Van that has a few WW2 Prohibs. So that's 2/6 ppl within 15km. I think there are many more.

thought FA weapons fell outside of restricted category?

[trollface]

Originally Posted by Hondaracer

thought FA weapons fell outside of restricted category?

Prohibited. It was grandfathered. You can get a prob on your license if someone in your family left the prohib to you after they passed. If you don't, you can never get it. If you let that license expire, they won't renew it and you have to turn the prohib over to the rcmp. To sum it up, what out there now is the only ones out there. The ppl that have it now, are the only ppl that will have them unless they are passed down or traded among ppl with the prohib on their license.

I believe you cannot get an ATT for those weapons also. It's literally a paper weight that shoots bullets.

There are three classes:

Non-rest.
Rest.
Prohib.

[Hondaracer]

yea meant prohib sorry, hmm interesting, gotta be rich enough to build your own indoor range for em lol

[jlo mein]

Originally Posted by Yodamaster

Certain states still allow brand new automatic firearms to be purchased by citizens with a class three license.

Class III license is for gun dealers only. A private citizen without a gun dealer business cannot get a Class III license.

Do not spread misinformation. A private citizen in America cannot acquire a fully automatic firearm manufactured after 1986. Since 1986 I have only found two documented cases of registered full auto firearms being used in crimes, neither in a school shooting massacre.

Please reference the American National Firearms Act.

For civilian possession, all machineguns must have been manufactured and registered with the ATF prior to May 19, 1986 to be transferable between citizens. These machinegun prices have drastically escalated in value, especially items like registered sears and conversion-kits. Only a Class-II manufacturer (a FFL holder licensed to manufacture firearms or Type-07 license that has paid a Special Occupational Tax Stamp or SOT) could manufacture machineguns after that date, and they can only be sold to Government, law-enforcement, and military entities. Transfer can only be done to other SOT FFL-holders, and such FFL-holders must have a “demonstration letter” from a respective Government agency to receive such machineguns. Falsification and/or misuse of the “demo-letter” process can and has resulted in long jail sentences and felony convictions for violators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

[StylinRed]

Piers Morgan going all out again tonight against guns

pointing out how australia/uk havent had shcool shootings since they've put bans in place

[trollface]

It's actually disgustingly hard to get your hands on an fa in USA.
Posted via RS Mobile

[jlo mein]

Originally Posted by StylinRed

Piers Morgan going all out again tonight against guns

pointing out how australia/uk havent had shcool shootings since they've put bans in place

Really Piers Morgan? The more I watch this guy the more I believe he is unwilling to have an honest debate where he allows others on his show to debate the other side without his intervention. All I see him do is interrupt his guests.

I searched for 30 seconds and found a shooting massacre that happened in the UK AFTER their harsh gun control was implemented:

Cumbria shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Graeme S]

The question here is not "do they happen with restrictive gun laws", which you seem to be trying to answer Jlo. The question here is "do more restrictive gun laws harm citizens more than they protect citizens"

As we've said before, anyone who has the will can do it. The salient point here is whether or not making these things more challenging to acquire would make it more challenging for these determined people to complete.

You focus on the 'registered firearms' aspect of what I am discussing. Unless I'm mistaken, stolen guns are not considered 'registered' once they have been reported missing. I am also still curious about your opinion on magazine size restrictions (in the US, not here), which I think you glossed over in my previous questions.