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Old 05-31-2013, 01:00 PM   #1
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Proposed Fraser-Surrey dock expansion

FSD has applied for an expansion permit for the purpose of transferring coal for the USA.

This coal is coming from Wyoming and Montana by train to the FSD, put on a barge to Texada Island and then shipped to Asia.

Washington and Oregon have already rejected the plan to have it shipped from their States based on environmental and air quality impact so from what I understand, the last option is......ship it to Canada and let us deal with it.

As a New Westminster resident I am VERY concerned about this proposal, and more so the lack of pubic knowledge or feedback. I literally stare at the FSD from one of my balconies and do not want to see an ongoing coal transfer let alone clean coal dust from my windows on a daily basis. I get that this is the purpose of the FSD and the economy is important, but I do not think coal is the product to be dealing with....especially as it is not even a Canadian product or a resource being used by Canada. The environmental impact is not worth it!

Coal terminal expansion vital, argues Fraser Surrey Docks - British Columbia - CBC News

Dust far from settled on Fraser Surrey Docks coal port project - The Globe and Mail

Example of coal barge:
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Old 05-31-2013, 01:12 PM   #2
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No thanks. Keep that shit out of here.
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Old 05-31-2013, 01:19 PM   #3
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I don't see what the problem is, it's not like we're mining it, which is dirtier than transporting it. We get money from exporting it, moving it. Additionally, there's already one in Delta, which is super cool... in my opinion.

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Old 05-31-2013, 01:44 PM   #4
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Yeah man, fuck expanding our industries. In Canada money just appears out of thin air (apart from selling houses to eachother).
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Old 05-31-2013, 01:53 PM   #5
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In the grand scheme of things this is not as big of a deal as it would be mining or burning it. Coal is dirty and I'd rather not live near a coal burning plant but I'd imagine the environmental impact of having a few open coal barges wouldn't be as heavy as we'd expect.

It would create jobs, bring money in, and we'd see more benefits than we would downsides to this.

Its bad enough that Asia already reaps the benefits of having its citizens come to Canada to mine our coal, we shouldn't miss out on the opportunity to create a few dockworking jobs for our citizens to enjoy.
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:48 PM   #6
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I'm okay with this for as long as dinosaur is living in New Westminster.
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:55 PM   #7
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As a New Westminster resident I am VERY concerned about this proposal, and more so the lack of pubic knowledge or feedback.
The CEO of FSD was on with Bill Good the other day - you should be able to find it on CKNW's Audio Vault. He gave quite a bit of detail on the mitigation measures that are used. He also noted that they've had public open houses, supported by advertising in various media, that have had very low turnout.

Ah, here it is... it was in the first hour on May 27. Bill Good podcast: CKNW AM 980: News. Talk. Sports. CKNW Podcasts - currently on Page 5.
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Old 05-31-2013, 02:56 PM   #8
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I get that this is the purpose of the FSD and the economy is important, but I do not think coal is the product to be dealing with....especially as it is not even a Canadian product or a resource being used by Canada. The environmental impact is not worth it!
BC is a main coal exporter to Asia. FSD is just trying to get their foot into this wide-open door at the moment. I know of atleast 4 mines in BC currently mining coal for export to Asia.

A big company dealing with coal export at the moment is in Burrard Inlet. Neptune Bulk Terminals deals with tons upon tons of coal that is transported down to North Vancouver by train, then loaded onto container ships for transport.

Being on a barge might be abit different when it comes to air quality. But it cant be too different comparing it to train transport. I haven't seen a single issue with North Van's air quality, and Neptune Terminals has been there for decades doing this..
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:06 PM   #9
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I don't see what the problem is, it's not like we're mining it, which is dirtier than transporting it. We get money from exporting it, moving it. Additionally, there's already one in Delta, which is super cool... in my opinion.

West shore Terminals - Coal transfer from trains - YouTube
You know what though...no one is really telling me "who" is getting that money.

I'll tell you, I'm a capitalist through and through. Someone tells me that we're going to ship it through BC and give you all kinds of numbers on a computer screen that everyone prescribes value to...cool beans.

So...FSD is going to get money. Ok. They need it as the current shipping lines that dock at FSD are....next to nothing. Everyone hates going to FSD, no one wants to work at FSD and the shipping lines are like, "nope, fuck dat shit"

CN Rail? Yes. Loads. CP Rail? Them too. BNSF and other players(David Washington,fuck, that guy needs more money) Too bad we sold BC Rail.

All of these players will then hire up some people. Great. Let's be generous...1000 people? Good paying jobs too...but 2000? I dunno. No one is telling me.

We aren't charging a toll. We don't get a cut based on percentage. So we get tax on some companies and some tax on employed people.

And then we're done.

COSTS:

You are right...coal at Deltaport. From wikipedia, about 29 million tons.

**EDIT**

Quote:
The plans are for FSD to surpass that, which is already the largest coal exporting port in NA, so an additional 30 million tons+ annually, and more than 200 ships per year.
I said that a few minutes ago, but just saw this article claiming only 4 million tons per year.

http://www.wevancouver.com/news/2043...ml?mobile=true

**EDIT**

In the middle of our city.

At least at Deltaport, its in the middle of A) the water in B) the edge of the greater vancouver area

And much like the debate regarding oil pipelines, we're going to be doing this to support China, that is using 3.2 billion metric tonnes annually.

With a less than stellar track record of mandating scrubbers and safety regulations.

So, while we are happy to say how green we are, and happy little Canadian hippies, we seem more than happy and willing to take on a lot of risk in order to support others in being the worst in terms of environmental damage.

I'm a pretty conservative guy, and even I have to start saying enough.

Oil pipelines are one thing, at least its Canadian fucking oil, but training US coal in through BC to ship on to China so we can have a minuscule percentage of Canadians employed at it, but really keep a buttload of Americans employed doesn't fly in my world.

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Old 05-31-2013, 03:09 PM   #10
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Once again gentlemen...huge difference.

It's not 'our' coal.

So, all the coal in North Van and such, doing it for decades is one thing..its keeping our people employed in areas of the province thats difficult to keep people employed.

This ain't our coal. This ain't our problem.
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:12 PM   #11
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Info in point form:

- Assumed revenue of $15 million (If I understand correctly).

- US based railway will send 12,500 metric tonnes of coal through Crescent Beach, Delta, and Surrey each day.

- there have been many issues with coal shipment in Delta with residents (including MLAs) complaining, "We have a slimy, nasty coal dust that settles over everything here" and “If I wipe down my patio table outside the cloth is black. I don’t think these operations should be approved until we know precisely how they are going to control the coal dust and what is in the dust that we have settling over us.”

-coal will be shipped in trains and barges that are NOT covered. FSD rep and US railway rep says that they will not be covered as a cost-cutting measure.

-Reps say their goal is to reduce coal dust in the air by, "85%". They will do this by spraying water on the coal as it is being transferred...this COULD lead to sludge run-off.

-Port Metro Vancouver will NOT be holding a public forum for this proposal....even though there has been over a year of hearings for the pipeline proposals.

-If approved, expansion begins this summer and will take 8 months.

-A small coal storage facility is also proposed for the property.

http://www.fsd.bc.ca/_documents/FSD_...sion_Guide.pdf
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Old 05-31-2013, 03:16 PM   #12
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BC is a main coal exporter to Asia. FSD is just trying to get their foot into this wide-open door at the moment. I know of atleast 4 mines in BC currently mining coal for export to Asia.

A big company dealing with coal export at the moment is in Burrard Inlet. Neptune Bulk Terminals deals with tons upon tons of coal that is transported down to North Vancouver by train, then loaded onto container ships for transport.

Being on a barge might be abit different when it comes to air quality. But it cant be too different comparing it to train transport. I haven't seen a single issue with North Van's air quality, and Neptune Terminals has been there for decades doing this..
But this isn't Canadian coal...

Why are we taking the risk for an American product?

I know we need certain thing to better our economy...pipelines, coal, etc. A lot of people are dead set against the pipelines (to the point one was officially rejected this morning), but the health risks of coal, imo, are greater. And, at least with the pipeline, it is a Canadian product.
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Old 05-31-2013, 04:28 PM   #13
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You know what though...no one is really telling me "who" is getting that money.

I'll tell you, I'm a capitalist through and through. Someone tells me that we're going to ship it through BC and give you all kinds of numbers on a computer screen that everyone prescribes value to...cool beans.

So...FSD is going to get money. Ok. They need it as the current shipping lines that dock at FSD are....next to nothing. Everyone hates going to FSD, no one wants to work at FSD and the shipping lines are like, "nope, fuck dat shit"

CN Rail? Yes. Loads. CP Rail? Them too. BNSF and other players(David Washington,fuck, that guy needs more money) Too bad we sold BC Rail.

All of these players will then hire up some people. Great. Let's be generous...1000 people? Good paying jobs too...but 2000? I dunno. No one is telling me.

We aren't charging a toll. We don't get a cut based on percentage. So we get tax on some companies and some tax on employed people.

And then we're done.

COSTS:

You are right...coal at Deltaport. From wikipedia, about 29 million tons.

**EDIT**



I said that a few minutes ago, but just saw this article claiming only 4 million tons per year.

WE Vancouver - Port aims for quick decision on Surrey coal terminal - Mobile Edition

**EDIT**

In the middle of our city.

At least at Deltaport, its in the middle of A) the water in B) the edge of the greater vancouver area

And much like the debate regarding oil pipelines, we're going to be doing this to support China, that is using 3.2 billion metric tonnes annually.

With a less than stellar track record of mandating scrubbers and safety regulations.

So, while we are happy to say how green we are, and happy little Canadian hippies, we seem more than happy and willing to take on a lot of risk in order to support others in being the worst in terms of environmental damage.

I'm a pretty conservative guy, and even I have to start saying enough.

Oil pipelines are one thing, at least its Canadian fucking oil, but training US coal in through BC to ship on to China so we can have a minuscule percentage of Canadians employed at it, but really keep a buttload of Americans employed doesn't fly in my world.
If I ran the risk of setting up a company or work site with capital. I would like to be rewarded with the money.

This isn't oil. It does not diffuse like oil. Coal spills would be exponentially easier to clean up and would have less impact on the environment.

I think there's already a pipeline from Alberta down to the states. Why? They have the facilities to process bitumen or synthetic crude.

I wonder why they don't export through to US West coast. Instead they cross borders to ship through Canada. This might be worth looking into.

Reply to Dino's point form PDF reply.

Make it mandatory to have covers on the rail cars. Problem solved. If they don't, which I don't see it being very hard to cover. Then I would have a problem with it.
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:15 PM   #14
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Hey everyone, ever heard of a place called Neptune terminals ? Kind of a lot of coal there and GUESS WHO IS EXPANDING THEIR COAL...neptune..which is in NORTH VAN. FSD seriously isn't THAT close to houses and stuff compared to neptune seriously. As far as everyone saying Deltaport does coal, no deltaport is purely containers, west shore is what does coal and its BESIDE Deltaport. Oh and as for health concerns. Unless you work in a freaken mine you're not going to be that effected by coal. Many longshore workers work everyday with coal and for years and don't have any health issues. You guys are making this a bigger deal than it really is. PCT in port moody also does coal now once in a while.

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Old 05-31-2013, 05:56 PM   #15
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I wonder why they don't export through to US West coast. Instead they cross borders to ship through Canada. This might be worth looking into.

Reply to Dino's point form PDF reply.

Make it mandatory to have covers on the rail cars. Problem solved. If they don't, which I don't see it being very hard to cover. Then I would have a problem with it.
They are not exporting directly from the USA because they were denied for health and environmental concerns. Both Washington and Oregon said, "no".

Them opting not to cover the rail cars and barges concern me. Now, I am far from an expert on these matters so this is a pretty big assumption, but I can't see these covers being overly expensive and\or budget busting. If these companies are so tight on money that covering these cars is not an option, what makes me think that we are sparing no expense ensuring there are no environmental or health disasters.

And as Grid pointed out....where are the numbers? How many jobs are going to be created? How long is this contract for? As a tax payer, what are the benefits? What are we getting for this?

These aren't canadians mining this coal....this is not a canadian rail transporting the coal...what are we getting?

As an aside, for example, I'd be totally behind some of these pipelines if Christy Clark came on TV and said, "look...there is some risk. we are going to do everything to avoid issues. with this pipeline, we will build 4 new hospitals and balance our budget." That's something!! That is an attainable goal! I will be able to see where that money is going...it WILL benefit the province.

We can't keep saying these projects are going to help our economy if we have no tangible goal. So, FSD wants coal....how many people are going to be hired? Because this is american coal for american money....are americans going to be hired? There seems to be too many missing pieces and they are pushing this through very fast....what am I missing?
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Old 05-31-2013, 05:58 PM   #16
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This should be a good read for you guys concerned

It deals with us right here in the lower mainland too

Speaks about concerns and methods to prevent coal dust that are in use


What Coal-Train Dust Means For Human Health EarthFix KCTS 9

http://earthfix.kcts9.org/energy/art...ental-impacts/ <part 2

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Old 05-31-2013, 06:00 PM   #17
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Yeah man, fuck expanding our industries. In Canada money just appears out of thin air (apart from selling houses to eachother).
Yes, I agree (your sarcasm does not evade me).

But what are the numbers for this project? I've been looking, dude...I can't find them.

The Lower Mainland, and specifically New West is severely lacking industry to keep people here flourishing long-term. I'm totally with you. But, if we aren't mining it...ain't moving it...ain't selling it...is it really apart of "our" industry? They are essentially renting from us....is that really an industry?
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:03 PM   #18
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This should be a good read for you guys concerned

It deals with us right here in the lower mainland too

Speaks about concerns and methods to prevent coal dust that are in use


What Coal-Train Dust Means For Human Health EarthFix KCTS 9
wow...thats a little frightening
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:14 PM   #19
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They are not exporting directly from the USA because they were denied for health and environmental concerns. Both Washington and Oregon said, "no".

Them opting not to cover the rail cars and barges concern me. Now, I am far from an expert on these matters so this is a pretty big assumption, but I can't see these covers being overly expensive and\or budget busting. If these companies are so tight on money that covering these cars is not an option, what makes me think that we are sparing no expense ensuring there are no environmental or health disasters.

And as Grid pointed out....where are the numbers? How many jobs are going to be created? How long is this contract for? As a tax payer, what are the benefits? What are we getting for this?

These aren't canadians mining this coal....this is not a canadian rail transporting the coal...what are we getting?

As an aside, for example, I'd be totally behind some of these pipelines if Christy Clark came on TV and said, "look...there is some risk. we are going to do everything to avoid issues. with this pipeline, we will build 4 new hospitals and balance our budget." That's something!! That is an attainable goal! I will be able to see where that money is going...it WILL benefit the province.

We can't keep saying these projects are going to help our economy if we have no tangible goal. So, FSD wants coal....how many people are going to be hired? Because this is american coal for american money....are americans going to be hired? There seems to be too many missing pieces and they are pushing this through very fast....what am I missing?
How about workers that SHIP the coal / load the coal onto the ship? It will benefit the province in terms of creating jobs / getting more people working. Yes there are health risks but there are preventitive measures such as spraying the coal piles with water. When it rains you think that coal goes onto your walls on your house and stuff ? No it doesn't. How about you accept it as not so much as a negative and somewhat of a positive and focus on how you could make it safer instead. For example instad of spraying water on the piles when its not raining once every 15 min instead of once every 30 min just stupid stuff like that goes a long way.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:16 PM   #20
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Yes, I agree (your sarcasm does not evade me).

But what are the numbers for this project? I've been looking, dude...I can't find them.

The Lower Mainland, and specifically New West is severely lacking industry to keep people here flourishing long-term. I'm totally with you. But, if we aren't mining it...ain't moving it...ain't selling it...is it really apart of "our" industry? They are essentially renting from us....is that really an industry?
By this logic we shouldn't buy anything from china then . (example iphone) We didn't build it, we aint selling it, we arn't moving it. We're buying stuff to support someone else instead of supporting ourselves. Think about what you just said. There are "industries" that literally just ship things around the world. Not to mention there isn't anything in New West except for retail, don't expect New west to be a city that produces anything other than that and living space. There's a reason why its not the major city anymore / people expanded out.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:18 PM   #21
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wow...thats a little frightening

not really 100lb of coal lost in a 400mile run is .25lb over a mile which is minuscule and given that it's coated i imagine it doesn't travel far from the tracks

/shrug so far not too concerned but i only just started reading
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:44 PM   #22
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By this logic we shouldn't buy anything from china then . (example iphone) We didn't build it, we aint selling it, we arn't moving it. We're buying stuff to support someone else instead of supporting ourselves. Think about what you just said. There are "industries" that literally just ship things around the world. Not to mention there isn't anything in New West except for retail, don't expect New west to be a city that produces anything other than that and living space. There's a reason why its not the major city anymore / people expanded out.
I don't think you understand what I am say....I get there is an industry for transportation...but what are the numbers. If this is good for our economy, show it to me. I'm not all granola-hug-a-tree-hippy....I get this stuff. There are sacrifices that are needed to ensure a prosperous future. What I am asking is if the environmental and health issues outweigh the benefit and vice versa.

In regards to New West, you say there is a "reason why its not a major city anymore". What is that reason? By that measure, all cities in the lower mainland are the same....not major industry...all retail....thus the problem with the Lower Mainland. Yes, Delta has some farming....a little in Langley, but the most part as you pointed out above....its all just one big real estate shift.
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Old 05-31-2013, 06:45 PM   #23
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Also BNSF has been testing different topical treatments that can reduce dust up to 93% instead of 85% (this was a finding from a 2010 test) don't know why they went with the 85% solution though... guess its cheaper than the two treatments that stop the dust better

http://www.bnsf.com/customers/pdf/coal-super-trial.pdf

BNSF - Customers - What I Can Ship - Coal - Coal Dust FAQs


edit: 85% topical treatment is the minimum that must be used as set by BNSF its up to the shipper to opt for the better topical treatments; BNSF is also taxing shippers whose loads let off too much dust it seems


there are methods to reduce coal dust by 99% according to this report http://www.powerpastcoal.org/wp-cont...MITIGATION.pdf again its up to the shipper to use methods greater than 85%

any group that is against coal shipments should be pushing for the use of better treatments on coal during transit (that seems to be the best route that is more likely to succeed)

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Old 05-31-2013, 06:54 PM   #24
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I don't think you understand what I am say....I get there is an industry for transportation...but what are the numbers. If this is good for our economy, show it to me. I'm not all granola-hug-a-tree-hippy....I get this stuff. There are sacrifices that are needed to ensure a prosperous future. What I am asking is if the environmental and health issues outweigh the benefit and vice versa.

In regards to New West, you say there is a "reason why its not a major city anymore". What is that reason? By that measure, all cities in the lower mainland are the same....not major industry...all retail....thus the problem with the Lower Mainland. Yes, Delta has some farming....a little in Langley, but the most part as you pointed out above....its all just one big real estate shift.
I'm trying to say that New west you can't expect it to "flourish" its past its prime and it serves its purpose as housing and thats pretty much it. All the work is in vancouver / surrey for the most part. No farm land no real retail other than wedding stuff. Theres the quay and thats pretty much it. They tried improving it with the movie theatre but thats just for the general population that lives in new west so they didn' thave to keep going to either richmond / surrey / burnaby / vancouver / coquitlam
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:18 PM   #25
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This should be a good read for you guys concerned

It deals with us right here in the lower mainland too

Speaks about concerns and methods to prevent coal dust that are in use


What Coal-Train Dust Means For Human Health EarthFix KCTS 9

Coal Dust's Environmental Impacts EarthFix KCTS 9 <part 2
Kinda reminds me of this: Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide
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