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Old 04-12-2014, 12:23 AM   #26
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This reminds me of last week's Mozilla fiasco, where half the interwebs were pushing for the CEO to resign because he had anti-gay views. As if his personal beliefs - i.e, beliefs that he himself had and did not push on any of his employees/company policies - had any impact on how he ran the company. Basically, this guy's life and future career prospects, regardless of his actual intelligence or corporate skill, was completely ruined by a bunch of losers with nothing to do except promote "free" and "equal" views... that is, of course, only if your views align with theirs. Absolutely disgusting.
Posted this last week. And I personally think it applies here as well.

Who the f*ck cares, as long as TWU produces graduates who are good lawyers that are able to correctly and skillfully interpret the law? It's not like other schools, by virtue of attending there, automatically produce graduates with pro-LGBT views. IMO as long as they keep those "bigoted" beliefs to themselves then I don't see an issue, the only time I see a problem is if they were actively using their status to lobby for laws/statutes that take rights away from LGBT people. And I don't see this happening here.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:25 AM   #27
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Trinity Western University Law School Cleared By B.C. Law Society

Looks like they are allowed to open.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:36 AM   #28
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It's not about being a certain type of lawyer, it's about not allowing gays and lesbians into the program. Christians can go to any law school in canada they want and have extreme views or not. You can't regulate what someone believes but you should be able to regulate discriminatory conduct, which is what's argued as happening with the rules they have about homosexuals.
Exactly! And there are evidence that certain people are born being gay or lesbians (I believe is been proven that DNA does have an effect) so if they believe Jesus made humans and certain people are born gay or lesbians then doesn't it mean that Jesus made them that way and as his followers they should accept that?
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:53 AM   #29
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Faith and lawyers shouldn't mix... If someone faith has a chance from jeopardizing someone else's freedom then they are in the wrong line of work.
Because there are no Christian lawyers out there at all right now...

I really don't think it matters. People are saying "well if I don't agree with the covenant then I can't go there." Then don't! There are other law schools in BC. Choose one that fits with your views and lifestyle. There are all kinds of law schools out there focusing on different types of law. From corporate to family, eviromental etc. Why can't there be one focusing on religious freedoms? I think it's a HUGE issue in Canada especially these days, and this debate around TWU is a good example of why it SHOULD be allowed to happen.

I went to a private Christian school. I agreed with the foundation the school was formed on, and the mission statement. So it worked for me. Others who don't/didn't agree with the same things I did were more than able to go to another school. A thing to remember is TWU is a private institution. They went through the same problems when they wanted a nursing program, and after a few years of having one now it's rated as one of if not the top nursing program in western Canada. I think a law program would be a great addition for those who WANT that kind of law instruction.
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:55 AM   #30
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inb4 all the lawyers who graduated from TWU turn on their clients because they have "sinned"
The fact you made this comment proves you know absolutely nothing about the true Christian faith and have only listened to what's been fed to you by the media and "Westbroro Baptist" types.

Matthew 7;1-2 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

The Bible clearly lays out important rules regarding judgement of others. Judgement is not for us to dole out here on earth, to OTHERS outside of the church. How can you judge someone based on a book (The Bible) that they do not believe in? While as a Christian you can disagree with the life choices of others you are told not to judge. It's different though for someone in the Church. You are supposed to "judge" them and keep them accountable, although judge is kind of a wrong word to use.

Anyways... I guess I should que the fails for quoting Bible verses. But I don't care, I'm proud and comfortable with what I believe.
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:49 AM   #31
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^People are either ignorant, have short memories, or they slept through first year crim

Let's not forget that even with the increasing secularization of the law, religion and law still co-exist since they historically have been interrelated.

Many of our laws reflect a Judeo-Christian religious heritage (e.g. vice crimes).

There is also an influential and dedicated school of thought in legal philosophy, natural law, which is based on the idea that the source of law's binding power comes from God and is discoverable through reason.
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Old 04-13-2014, 12:47 PM   #32
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Because, nobody is allowed to have different beliefs than the Accepted Norm.
So everyone should bend and believe in the accepted norm? Just cus whats normal changes doesnt mean everyone has to follow suit. Many of the laws governing our land are based on religion and the morals that came with it.
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Old 04-13-2014, 08:27 PM   #33
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Because, nobody is allowed to have different beliefs than the Accepted Norm.
So everyone should bend and believe in the accepted norm? Just cus whats normal changes doesnt mean everyone has to follow suit. Many of the laws governing our land are based on religion and the morals that came with it.
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:32 PM   #34
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and it's being challenged..

Lawyers challenge B.C. approval of Trinity Western law school - The Globe and Mail

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A group of lawyers will launch a court challenge on Monday against the B.C. government for approving a new law school at Trinity Western University, which has caused controversy because of the school’s policy toward gays and lesbians.

In December, the province’s Minister of Advanced Education, Amrik Virk, accredited the program, saying that it met academic standards and that other concerns, such as whether it respects the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, were outside his purview.
But critics have argued that a community covenant prohibiting same-sex intimacy among all members of Trinity Western is discriminatory. Lawyers will argue before the Supreme Court of B.C. that Mr. Virk had a duty to consider whether the covenant violates the Charter right of potential students and staff at the university to be treated equally.

Trinity Western is a private, faith-based university in Langley, B.C., and its community covenant prohibits “sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman.”

Clayton Ruby, a prominent criminal and civil-rights lawyer in Toronto, has called Trinity Western’s policy discriminatory and “simply unacceptable” in the context of a law school. He is one of five lawyers mounting the challenge with Trevor Loke, an openly gay Christian who is also a commissioner for the Vancouver Park Board, as plaintiff.

“I find the minister’s endorsement of TWU’s law school humiliating,” Mr. Loke said in a statement.

The firms mounting the challenge – Ruby Shiller Chan Hasan and Janes Freedman Kyle Law Corporation – will argue that B.C.’s approval contravenes Charter rights regarding discrimination based on sexual orientation and freedom of religion.

They will also claim that the minister has a duty to improve equitable access to law school for the province’s students, and that Trinity Western’s community covenant violates the very statute by which it was founded.

The university’s community covenant has also raised concerns among provincial law societies across the country. The proposed law school received tentative approval from the Federation of Law Societies of Canada in December, but provincial societies in B.C., Ontario, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick launched their own reviews of the decision.

On Friday, Trinity Western won a substantial victory when the Law Society of B.C. voted 20-6 in favour of accrediting graduates of the proposed law school. The university’s president, Bob Kuhn, has defended the covenant as a matter of freedom of religion and hailed the vote as an affirmation of “the need in a pluralistic society for voices that may not be popular.”

Decisions from the Ontario and Nova Scotia law societies are expected in late April.
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Old 04-14-2014, 04:41 PM   #35
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That was expected. The SCC case of TWU v BCCT that tied the hands of the Benchers and prevented them from rejecting TWU's application is over 10 years old. Times have changed since then. This case is a good start.
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Old 04-14-2014, 06:30 PM   #36
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“I find the minister’s endorsement of TWU’s law school humiliating,” Mr. Loke said in a statement.
I don't care what your orientation, religion, gender, job, or hair color is... don't be such a fuckin' whiner. "Humiliating"?? Shut the fuck up.

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hu·mil·i·at·ing
(h)yo͞oˈmilēˌātiNG/
adjective
1.
causing someone to feel ashamed and foolish by injuring their dignity and self-respect.
PuhLEEEZE. Is your dignity THAT FEEBLE that it can be destroyed by something that has FUCK ALL to do with you? If you're constantly seeking validation from outside, you've got bigger problems than where people choose to go to law school.

This whole thing speaks to a much larger issue in our society today: people's need to find something, anything, to be offended by... "Outrage Culture", I've often heard it called.

One caller to the radio today said TWU should just get rid of their religious basis altogether, so it's more attractive to people who don't want that as part of their education... I'm sorry, what about those who DO? There are plenty of totally secular universities in BC... few, if any, outside of TWU that do have the faith-based grounding. So really... you want to remove that option from people who DO want it... and you complain about TWU being "exclusionary"?

The people who wave the Charter around in things like this are the worst... last I checked, the Charter also grants people freedom of religion.
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Old 04-14-2014, 06:42 PM   #37
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mounting the challenge with Trevor Loke, an openly gay Christian who is also a commissioner for the Vancouver Park Board, as plaintiff
Of course they had to find a gay Christian to act as their "plaintiff."

Is this even necessary? Can't the lawyers opposed to this simply argue it on the merits? Do they need a "figurehead" for their case?
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Old 04-14-2014, 09:05 PM   #38
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Of course they had to find a gay Christian to act as their "plaintiff."

Is this even necessary? Can't the lawyers opposed to this simply argue it on the merits? Do they need a "figurehead" for their case?
Of course they do.

It's got nothing to do with some lawyers trying to make a name for themselves... no, not at all...

Spoiler!
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:10 AM   #39
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He is one of five lawyers mounting the challenge with Trevor Loke, an openly gay Christian who is also a commissioner for the Vancouver Park Board, as plaintiff.
Openly gay Christian?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 "(9)Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, (10) or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God."

Calling yourself an openly gay Christian is an full on contradiction. To be a Christian is to believe the the Bible is the direct word of God. Saying you are gay and a Christian goes against everything the Bible says in regards to relations and the sanctity of marriage.

Matthew 19:4-6 "He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”


It goes against modern cultural thinking, but I truly believe that if you are in fact a Christian, God changes you from within to no longer want to sin. Being gay is said to be a sin just like lying, cheating, theft, murder etc. It's often mistaken that the Bible compares homosexuality directly to murder. But it's using that comparison to explain that sin is sin in God's eyes and there is no sin greater than another. We are all fallen and useless creatures and will fail every time if we try to do it on our own. I know this from personal experience. I still fail daily but know because of the blood of Christ I know I am saved regardless of how much I screw up. That doesn't mean I go out and do things thinking "hey whatever it's all forgiven anyways do I can do what I want." No, I actually don't WANT to sin anymore. And that is why I don't believe that someone can actually be a Christian and still be openly gay, just like I don't believe someone can still want to go cheat on their wife, lie, cheat, steal or murder someone... and truly believe in God and live their life for His glory. I know people who were and probably still are gay and are Christians. But they do not act on it and fight with it daily just like I fight with my sins and vices. That's the difference. I feel this Mr. Loke and others like him are just using the Christian label as publicity for political gain for the LGBTQ community, and are not truly believers.

If you don't believe in God, then you can't be held to the standard the Bible sets out. So if you're reading this and are not a Christian, don't take it as though it's directed at you. But this man calls himself a Christian. So he should, and come judgement day will be held to that standard by God.

Back to the TWU issue. If you don't agree with their covenant, don't go to their school. The part where it says it requires students to abstain from “sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman” also falls within the sex outside of marriage realm. Between a male and female. It is and was not put there to exclude the LGBTQ community. If two hetero students are found to be having sex outside of marriage while at TWU, regardless of their faith they will be expelled. Simple as that, they signed the covenant. So for the LGBTQ crew to come out and say this is excluding only them, is ridiculous. The TWU covenant has been there for a LONG time and only now with the increase in LGBTQ equality movement it's apparently become an issue. If it was truly an issue of human rights it would have been fought long ago, right?

Something to think about.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:21 AM   #40
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O No, I actually don't WANT to sin anymore. And that is why I don't believe that someone can actually BE a Christian and still be openly gay. I know people who were and probably still are gay and are Christians. But they do not act on it and fight with it daily just like I fight with my sins and vices.
Sounds pretty great, make you hate yourself and think you're an abomination for something caused by a genetic/hormone change that happened during a baby's gestation.


This doesn't require a response, I have no intent to try to argue with you about it.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:25 AM   #41
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We are all abominations. And until you realize and come to accept that, you'll never truly be free of yourself and your failures.
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Old 04-15-2014, 12:33 PM   #42
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If the exact wording is as quoted:

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sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman.
Then wouldn't heterosexual, unmarried intimacy be a violation and homosexual intimacy not be a violation of this? I mean it would be hard to violate the "sacredness" of heterosexual marriage if you're homosexual, no?
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Old 04-15-2014, 06:34 PM   #43
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According to the Bible, marriage to be between one man and one woman. And sex is to be enjoyed with your spouse within that context of marriage. So any sex outside of marriage, whether it be between a woman/man, man/man or woman/woman violates that sanctity and also the covenant that TWU requires you sign.
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Old 04-15-2014, 11:14 PM   #44
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From recent article in Globe and Mail: Intolerance is now a vice of the left
"Once upon a time (back in the Jurassic age, when I was in university), the most progressive forces in society believed passionately in free speech, tolerance, pluralism and diversity. They still claim to believe in those things – until someone says something they don’t like, at which point they fight to shut them down."

Intolerance is now a vice of the left - The Globe and Mail
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:05 AM   #45
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I am just curious on how do they go about proving their students having a sexual relationship outside of marriage if both parties made no such admission?
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:48 PM   #46
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Lawyers and religion? Come on.... Where's the facts that Jesus existed? None your honour
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic....
Many non-christians and Christians believe that Jesus existed, as many historical facts point to that conclusion. The question of whether he rose from the dead and had any godly powers or relations is another story where faith and the bible comes into play. It is hard to argue that there wasn't a man named Jesus...
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:49 PM   #47
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I am just curious on how do they go about proving their students having a sexual relationship outside of marriage if both parties made no such admission?
They don't and they can't.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:02 PM   #48
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Can't tell if you are being sarcastic....
Many non-christians and Christians believe that Jesus existed, as many historical facts point to that conclusion. The question of whether he rose from the dead and had any godly powers or relations is another story where faith and the bible comes into play. It is hard to argue that there wasn't a man named Jesus...
I know 2 of them, real nice guys too.
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:48 PM   #49
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“sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman.”
Get your pervert ass out of our bedroom!
Lead your own life and leave me alone you arrogant pricks.
And fuck your shaming opinion.
Blech.[/rant]

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A lawyer in Victoria has taken the initiative to try and force a special general meeting of the Law Society of BC. If 5% of the lawyers in BC make the request (about 550 people) then they will have to declare the meeting and the decision may be overturned.

Read more about it here: Trinity Western law school could face new law society vote - British Columbia - CBC News

I've signed the form and sent it over. If there are any other lawyers here, I invite you to do the same. Feel free to contact me if you need a copy.
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