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Old 04-18-2014, 08:44 AM   #26
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I really feel sorry for the kids who have learning disabilities as they are the ones who are impacted the most with all these cuts.

Why? We need Wal-Mart greeters, people who can do dishes and serve those with money
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:44 AM   #27
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The biggest different between Blackberry and BC Ferries ; ICBC ; CP is the gov't corporations are monopolies where Blackberry is in a competitive market. I have no problem paying the CEO of RBC a billion dollars if that is what it takes to increase market share and profits of shareholders. FOR ICBC who is the competition? BINGS insurance? Last I checked everyone in this province HAS to get basic insurance from ICBC - no ifs, no buts. Same for BC ferries, how are you going to get your Okanagan apples to Victoria? Air Freight? Canada Post is an oligopoly because of FED EX and UPS. Purolator is their sub. SO can any half witted CEO run a monopoly - you tell me why not? The travel , the "leadership" , work related pressure? (you mean 8-4 out the door mentality? unless in a criss ). So get rid of the over paying and hire someone reasonable OR privatize and see if those salaries are sustainable - the market will decide.

The whole problem is that People who make decisions get paid 10x more than the average individual. SO when making 100k a year paying $3 for a toll is a drop in the bucke, hell paying even $5 for toll is no problem, but making 40k a year it starts to matter.
Having a monopoly doesn't mean things are going to be easy as a Crown corporation. An obvious drawback is having a public mandate to provide public services even when they are unprofitable. For example, can BC ferries cancel unprofitable sailing routes?

Let me ask you, how many CEOs do you personally know? what CEO gets 8-4? LOL. My boss in middle level management doesn't even get those hours. The fact you said that makes you lose credibility. Most people think $500k salary is a lot of money because the average person makes $38k and they haven't seen big $ before. For every one qualified CEO, there are thousands of average individuals. Is this a shock that they are paid "10" times more? So can any "half-wit" run a company? Most people can't even get into middle management.
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:16 AM   #28
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These replies are courtesy of MindBomber back when BC Ferries was discussed on these boards in 2012, which I thought were very apt.

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Originally Posted by Gridlock:
^^I thought that too, then I thought "whats that bonus structure look like?"
The government passed legislation last year to cap B.C. Ferries executives' salaries; Corrigan can earn a maximum of $563,000 next year.
http://www.vancouversun.com/business...854/story.htmlFor comparison, Sean Durfy, ex-CEO of WestJet , earned a base salary of $535,000, and total compensation of $2,198,422.

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They are losing money on sailing a scheduled sailing even if the passengers don't show up. Well, come on guys, you've been at this for 20 years, you should know by now when people are going to be there and when they aren't.$
Following Thanksgiving weekend, 98 sailings are being dropped. Great news!
Even better news, BC Ferries was originally seeking to drop 400 sailings, which indicates to me that BC Ferries isn't being run by idiots...

...unfortunately the province is run by idiots, who instead ordered an additional $20 million a year in subsidies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...ries-cuts.html

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Whats so complex? It's not like they are adding new routes or have stiff competition. They pretty much have know competition. They have been doing the exact same thing for the last 20 plus years.
The logistics involved with operating a fleet of passenger ferries is a monumental task; managing general maintenance and breakdowns without impacting the schedule; regulating a supply of everything from replacement parts to fuel to food; crewing the vessel with people capable of captaining, navigating, and maintaining a ferry, and even doing the menial tasks but with the specific safety certifications required; keeping current passengers happy; attracting new passengers.

I see a lot of similarities between the role of an airline CEO and our ferry CEO; the obvious difference being the lack of competition faced by BC Ferries easing some aspects of the job, but airlines get to pick and choose the routes they operate on where BC Ferries has a fixed set adding a pretty significant challenge. Oh, and most airlines bleed money and often go bankrupt, coincidence?
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by bing View Post
These replies are courtesy of MindBomber back when BC Ferries was discussed on these boards in 2012, which I thought were very apt.



The government passed legislation last year to cap B.C. Ferries executives' salaries; Corrigan can earn a maximum of $563,000 next year.
http://www.vancouversun.com/business...854/story.html

For comparison, Sean Durfy, ex-CEO of WestJet , earned a base salary of $535,000, and total compensation of $2,198,422.



Even better news, BC Ferries was originally seeking to drop 400 sailings, which indicates to me that BC Ferries isn't being run by idiots...

...unfortunately the province is run by idiots, who instead ordered an additional $20 million a year in subsidies.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...ries-cuts.html



The logistics involved with operating a fleet of passenger ferries is a monumental task; managing general maintenance and breakdowns without impacting the schedule; regulating a supply of everything from replacement parts to fuel to food; crewing the vessel with people capable of captaining, navigating, and maintaining a ferry, and even doing the menial tasks but with the specific safety certifications required; keeping current passengers happy; attracting new passengers.

I see a lot of similarities between the role of an airline CEO and our ferry CEO; the obvious difference being the lack of competition faced by BC Ferries easing some aspects of the job, but airlines get to pick and choose the routes they operate on where BC Ferries has a fixed set adding a pretty significant challenge. Oh, and most airlines bleed money and often go bankrupt, coincidence?
a lot of BC ferries operations are mandated by the government. if I were the CEO, i would cut all non profitable routes up north, but obviously the government doesnt want that.

I think reduced sailings for those routes are a good start. Perhaps they can restructure their bargaining so that they have more flexible - ie. seasonal - type structure where more sailings take place during peak seasons and less sailings during slow periods.
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:17 PM   #30
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its tough to manage the teachers as there are enrollment issues, school upgrades, and even the education system in BC isnt that great. Why is there not more training towards trades and apprenticeships? I heard woodworks and mechanics / sewing / cooking etc and those type of classes are starting to get eliminated. I found those classes to be some of the most useful imo.

what about a basic financial literacy course so we dont have students going into massive debt.

I think more money into the right programs would help better future generations. By that I mean a shift in money as we dont really have "more money".
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:25 PM   #31
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its tough to manage the teachers as there are enrollment issues, school upgrades, and even the education system in BC isnt that great. Why is there not more training towards trades and apprenticeships? I heard woodworks and mechanics / sewing / cooking etc and those type of classes are starting to get eliminated. I found those classes to be some of the most useful imo.

what about a basic financial literacy course so we dont have students going into massive debt.

I think more money into the right programs would help better future generations. By that I mean a shift in money as we dont really have "more money".
This. IMO taking away trades programs and home-ec stuff makes no sense when it is being replaced by courses like pre-calculus. I knew by about grade 10-11 that I didn't want to get into a career involving higher-level mathematics, I personally don't think it should be mandatory coursework when I am willing to bet a large majority of HS students will not use that in post-secondary or career-type applications unless they are going into Engineering or Sciences. Obviously the counter-argument is that kids need mathematics skills to balance their budgets, plan financially, etc... but personally I think that something like financial planning, accounting, or basic economics would serve them much better.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:02 PM   #32
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Because those classes require the most capital outlay and also currently serve people are not academically inclined / with problems.. First the teaching tools are expensive. Not to mention the majority of the high school kids taking them are not the brightest (borderline remedial).. teachers get burnt out really quick and realize they can do much better actually doing a trade than to teach them, so there is always a shortage. Just compare the cost of a shop class vs say an English lit / history class, that's before the insurance etc.

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Originally Posted by iEatClams View Post
its tough to manage the teachers as there are enrollment issues, school upgrades, and even the education system in BC isnt that great. Why is there not more training towards trades and apprenticeships? I heard woodworks and mechanics / sewing / cooking etc and those type of classes are starting to get eliminated. I found those classes to be some of the most useful imo.

what about a basic financial literacy course so we dont have students going into massive debt.

I think more money into the right programs would help better future generations. By that I mean a shift in money as we dont really have "more money".
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:32 PM   #33
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If not for unions, we'd all be working 60 + hours a week, working weekends and basically have on rights.
You just described my life.
Unions are definitely a necessity in some circumstances, however, they often protect the wrong people. Seniority shouldn't come before results. There are people my wife works with in the nurses union that are genuine piles of shit that can never be fired because of that fucking union. Their negligence has literally killed people and they still get paid to go to work. Or look at the fucking police force. Unions need to have a little reality and common sense injected into them, as the world isn't black and white.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:39 PM   #34
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You just described my life.
Unions are definitely a necessity in some circumstances, however, they often protect the wrong people. Seniority shouldn't come before results. There are people my wife works with in the nurses union that are genuine piles of shit that can never be fired because of that fucking union. Their negligence has literally killed people and they still get paid to go to work. Or look at the fucking police force. Unions need to have a little reality and common sense injected into them, as the world isn't black and white.
yup I totally agree, and this is what I hate about the unions. police officers, you do something stupid and your punishment is suspension WITH pay. same goes for other unions, it protects the wrong people. There's also no accountability and too much reliance on seniority. In any other industry those individuals would be fired.

but because many companies ignore labour laws and their incentives to maximize profits and reduce wages, unions are unfortunately a necessity.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:45 PM   #35
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Because those classes require the most capital outlay and also currently serve people are not academically inclined / with problems.. First the teaching tools are expensive. Not to mention the majority of the high school kids taking them are not the brightest (borderline remedial).. teachers get burnt out really quick and realize they can do much better actually doing a trade than to teach them, so there is always a shortage. Just compare the cost of a shop class vs say an English lit / history class, that's before the insurance etc.
I remember when I was in highschool, we had to pay certain fees and such for some of the classes for materials. Why have some portions of it subsidized and thus make the students pay a nominal fee to offset some of these costs.

If you can teach a math 12 class you should be able to teach a basic budgeting / economics / financial literacy course.

Germany invests heavily in trades and apprenticeships and look how they're doing.
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:03 PM   #36
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The school board has to supply everything for free, no fees allow.

Yeah, Germany also provides free education up to PhD too.. what's your point? They also have 60%+ effective tax rate on everyone.

The reality is the US is our analogy to Germany, we are France or Poland at best.

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I remember when I was in highschool, we had to pay certain fees and such for some of the classes for materials. Why have some portions of it subsidized and thus make the students pay a nominal fee to offset some of these costs.

If you can teach a math 12 class you should be able to teach a basic budgeting / economics / financial literacy course.

Germany invests heavily in trades and apprenticeships and look how they're doing.
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Old 04-18-2014, 03:20 PM   #37
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A lot of wasteful spending in school districts. All administrators in Surrey got free Ipads so they could keep op with technology last year. This year they got free laptops there choice of Macs or PC's. Nanaimo is spending money on making there vehicles carbon neutral.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:04 PM   #38
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Having a monopoly doesn't mean things are going to be easy as a Crown corporation. An obvious drawback is having a public mandate to provide public services even when they are unprofitable. For example, can BC ferries cancel unprofitable sailing routes?

Let me ask you, how many CEOs do you personally know? what CEO gets 8-4? LOL. My boss in middle level management doesn't even get those hours. The fact you said that makes you lose credibility. Most people think $500k salary is a lot of money because the average person makes $38k and they haven't seen big $ before. For every one qualified CEO, there are thousands of average individuals. Is this a shock that they are paid "10" times more? So can any "half-wit" run a company? Most people can't even get into middle management.

Running ICBC is a hell of a lot easier than running an insurance company in Ontario where it's privatized. I'm sure you agree.

Ok fine the CEO 8-4 is a bit of stretch - I'll give you that. But really, the mandate of crown corps is to break even at most. Profits are a bonus.

Salaries and Wages are the biggest expense on any P&L no matter the type of business. So if your biggest expense is salary and your staff are unionized aside from renegotiating your union rates, what else is there to cut next? Management wages. Take a read about the JAL CEO. JAL is a crown corp I believe since they are the national carrier - don't quote me on that though. I think they also have ANA. Anyways, I'm not saying be that extreme, I'm saying be reasonable. Why do you think Unions want such high rates? Because the tone is set at the top -if the CEO makes 500k why can't my janitor make 50k and the cook 75? If the CEO takes 125k the rest of the wages will fall into line.

Crown corporations are the epitome of inefficiency because of all the red tape and bs.

And you say most people can't even get into middle management, that is because Unions are based on seniority not merit. All the crowns corps that are in discussion have unions for staff.

And you say having a monopoly isn't easy even as a crown corp. Damn, there must be something wrong then cuz if you run it efficiently, you have a license to print money.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:47 PM   #39
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Actually any chief and presidents are not unionized. They are likely to have law degrees. If you pay lawyer wages for the top 20 people, quarter a mill / person is not that much. Lawyer wages are 300-400/hour.

If you want top job at crown corporation, the quickest way is not to join a union, but to go to law school and build your connections there.

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Running ICBC is a hell of a lot easier than running an insurance company in Ontario where it's privatized. I'm sure you agree.

Ok fine the CEO 8-4 is a bit of stretch - I'll give you that. But really, the mandate of crown corps is to break even at most. Profits are a bonus.

Salaries and Wages are the biggest expense on any P&L no matter the type of business. So if your biggest expense is salary and your staff are unionized aside from renegotiating your union rates, what else is there to cut next? Management wages. Take a read about the JAL CEO. JAL is a crown corp I believe since they are the national carrier - don't quote me on that though. I think they also have ANA. Anyways, I'm not saying be that extreme, I'm saying be reasonable. Why do you think Unions want such high rates? Because the tone is set at the top -if the CEO makes 500k why can't my janitor make 50k and the cook 75? If the CEO takes 125k the rest of the wages will fall into line.

Crown corporations are the epitome of inefficiency because of all the red tape and bs.

And you say most people can't even get into middle management, that is because Unions are based on seniority not merit. All the crowns corps that are in discussion have unions for staff.

And you say having a monopoly isn't easy even as a crown corp. Damn, there must be something wrong then cuz if you run it efficiently, you have a license to print money.
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:31 PM   #40
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Running ICBC is a hell of a lot easier than running an insurance company in Ontario where it's privatized. I'm sure you agree.
What exactly are you basing this assertion on?

Quote:
Ok fine the CEO 8-4 is a bit of stretch - I'll give you that. But really, the mandate of crown corps is to break even at most. Profits are a bonus.
Why would someone work his ass off for years only to sit there at the top? Doing an excellent job enhances your reputation and can lead to other lucrative opportunities in the form of being headhunted to work at other companies. Being mediocre would be career suicide. How long do companies keep a shitty CEO who continually can't meet metrics? what do you report to the board? you think being a CEO once makes you entitled to be a CEO elsewhere?

Quote:
Salaries and Wages are the biggest expense on any P&L no matter the type of business. So if your biggest expense is salary and your staff are unionized aside from renegotiating your union rates, what else is there to cut next? Management wages. Take a read about the JAL CEO. JAL is a crown corp I believe since they are the national carrier - don't quote me on that though. I think they also have ANA. Anyways, I'm not saying be that extreme, I'm saying be reasonable. Why do you think Unions want such high rates? Because the tone is set at the top -if the CEO makes 500k why can't my janitor make 50k and the cook 75? If the CEO takes 125k the rest of the wages will fall into line.
What exactly are management salaries as a percentage of all costs? profits? employee salaries? I think reducing executive pay at the current pay scales would be more symbolic than anything (my opinion would be different if they made millions). I'd rather we attract stronger talent to come up with better strategies to increase revenue/decrease costs. I think your focus is too narrow.

Quote:
Crown corporations are the epitome of inefficiency because of all the red tape and bs.

And you say most people can't even get into middle management, that is because Unions are based on seniority not merit. All the crowns corps that are in discussion have unions for staff.
Since when are management part of unions?

Quote:
And you say having a monopoly isn't easy even as a crown corp. Damn, there must be something wrong then cuz if you run it efficiently, you have a license to print money.
The reality is that these are complex issues. You make it sound simple like it is so black & white. Monopoly environment + run company efficiently = profitable
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:42 PM   #41
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No offense to public teachers out there, but I'm going to make sure my son goes to a private school.

I went to one of the lowest ranking highschools in the province and that should say alot about the type of teachers there.
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:50 PM   #42
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What exactly are you basing this assertion on?

Why would someone work his ass off for years only to sit there at the top? Doing an excellent job enhances your reputation and can lead to other lucrative opportunities in the form of being headhunted to work at other companies. Being mediocre would be career suicide. How long do companies keep a shitty CEO who continually can't meet metrics? what do you report to the board? you think being a CEO once makes you entitled to be a CEO elsewhere?

What exactly are management salaries as a percentage of all costs? profits? employee salaries? I think reducing executive pay at the current pay scales would be more symbolic than anything (my opinion would be different if they made millions). I'd rather we attract stronger talent to come up with better strategies to increase revenue/decrease costs. I think your focus is too narrow.

Since when are management part of unions?



The reality is that these are complex issues. You make it sound simple like it is so black & white. Monopoly environment + run company efficiently = profitable

My assertion is based on the fact that ICBC is a monopoly that has no competition. I'm sure you took an economics class , when is the market in equilibrium? In perfect competition or in monopoly state? What is the goal of every single for profit corporation? To wipe out the competition and take over the world - isn't that called a monopoly?



Why are shitty CEO's still running crown corps? I'm not saying I'm an expert but using the same metric as yours, what happened to the CEO's at Blackberry - they got canned after poor results. What's happening at ICBC Ferries Can Post ; CEO's are just sitting up to cutting services that affect the public. So is that a good CEO? For Years BC Ferries has been a sinking ship - no pun intended , I have not googled but I'm sure the CEO hasn't changed in a while.

I don't have exact percentages for you, and no I wont spend my time researching.

Management isn't part of a union, but didn't you say most people can't even make middle management? Usually, in the private sector, it goes customer service, supervisor, dept manager, manger. Usually, customer service the lowest are part of the union, and are promoted within to management. In a union environment I presume it works the same but rather than on merit its based on seniority. Joes been here 15 years lets make him dept manager but the new kid has a BBA in Technology from UBC has been here 3 years he's got 4 years experience at a similar firm in China, let's leave him in the mail room and move Ronny who's been here 6 years to supervisor.


If the reality is there are more complex issues and are not so black and white, the CEO's running the show are being paid way to much to not handle the complexities and such should be replaced or have their salaries lowered.

Edit: I just googled BC Ferries CEO just for kicks and came up on this info:


-BC Ferries spends about $12 on management and administrative overhead for every $1 spent on those costs by Washington State Ferries.
-BC Ferries executives, the ferry corporation’s board of directors announced last year that the incoming CEO’s annual compensation would be set at $500,730 for 2014, down markedly from the $915,000 paid in 2012.
Compare that reduced salary to the compensation Washington State Ferries pays its top executive — $152,000 a year with no bonuses because running the system efficiently, providing adequate service and achieving results is deemed the job description.

-disclaimer: Washington State Ferries, which operates under the state highways and transportation system and carries more passengers and vehicles (although with fewer vessels on generally shorter routes than in B.C.),

http://www.vancouversun.com/business...800/story.html
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Old 04-18-2014, 10:50 PM   #43
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Not sure if any of the thread contributors are parents, but I am one. My son is in Kindergarten and a few days ago we received this notice:

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Dear Families of Quilchena,

The VSB has a 12.34 Million dollar budget shortfall this year.
The 2014 / 2015 preliminary budget ~ IF approved will have direct impact on our children at Quilchena.

IF approved ~ Quilchena students will lose:

Band & strings program
Complete loss of the program OR be required to pay $250 fee per student participating in the program.

Track + Field / Athletic Coordinator
The VSB member who in the past organized the track meets will lose their position. The track and field activity can still remain at the school level ALL inter school meets will be left to the individual schools to organize.

Additional school calendar days
The entire week surrounding Remembrance Day ~ school will be closed.
This would save on heating and electrical costs for the district and + 5 more minutes to the day for children (either taken from lunch or recess time or added at the end of the day).

District pay parking
The VSB is also putting forward the proposal to change all the current free teacherís parking into third party public pay parking lots. This would mean it will be a non taxable expense for teachers to park at the school. It will also put pressure on residential parking with the end result being residential permit parking in the area.

These are only a couple examples of how the proposed cutbacks will effect Quilchena.
So I will be directly affected by this budget cut.

Meanwhile, yesterday my son brought home a notice that asked for $52 to pay for the following:

Physical Education Enrichment
Gymnastics $10
Hip-hop $11

Class Room Activities
Button blanket project $9
Bookbinding project $22

I certainly cannot afford to send him to a private school, but fortunately I can pay for these "school fees"...
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:33 AM   #44
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$22 for Book binding come on now. Who the hell needs to learn how to bind a book.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:20 AM   #45
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My assertion is based on the fact that ICBC is a monopoly that has no competition. I'm sure you took an economics class , when is the market in equilibrium? In perfect competition or in monopoly state? What is the goal of every single for profit corporation? To wipe out the competition and take over the world - isn't that called a monopoly?



Why are shitty CEO's still running crown corps? I'm not saying I'm an expert but using the same metric as yours, what happened to the CEO's at Blackberry - they got canned after poor results. What's happening at ICBC Ferries Can Post ; CEO's are just sitting up to cutting services that affect the public. So is that a good CEO? For Years BC Ferries has been a sinking ship - no pun intended , I have not googled but I'm sure the CEO hasn't changed in a while.

I don't have exact percentages for you, and no I wont spend my time researching.

Management isn't part of a union, but didn't you say most people can't even make middle management? Usually, in the private sector, it goes customer service, supervisor, dept manager, manger. Usually, customer service the lowest are part of the union, and are promoted within to management. In a union environment I presume it works the same but rather than on merit its based on seniority. Joes been here 15 years lets make him dept manager but the new kid has a BBA in Technology from UBC has been here 3 years he's got 4 years experience at a similar firm in China, let's leave him in the mail room and move Ronny who's been here 6 years to supervisor.


If the reality is there are more complex issues and are not so black and white, the CEO's running the show are being paid way to much to not handle the complexities and such should be replaced or have their salaries lowered.

Edit: I just googled BC Ferries CEO just for kicks and came up on this info:


-BC Ferries spends about $12 on management and administrative overhead for every $1 spent on those costs by Washington State Ferries.
-BC Ferries executives, the ferry corporation’s board of directors announced last year that the incoming CEO’s annual compensation would be set at $500,730 for 2014, down markedly from the $915,000 paid in 2012.
Compare that reduced salary to the compensation Washington State Ferries pays its top executive — $152,000 a year with no bonuses because running the system efficiently, providing adequate service and achieving results is deemed the job description.

-disclaimer: Washington State Ferries, which operates under the state highways and transportation system and carries more passengers and vehicles (although with fewer vessels on generally shorter routes than in B.C.),

Stephen Hume: BC Ferries a bloated, inefficient and recessionary drag on the province
Ouch, 152k is charity. Even our police officers here make 6 figures with overtime. My buddy as a store manager makes just under that.

My uncle, President of a major market, runs a similar sized division of an American corporation in terms of revenue compared to BC Ferries and he is making much more than double that.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:42 AM   #46
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No offense to public teachers out there, but I'm going to make sure my son goes to a private school.
I hope you have big savings set aside. West Point Gray Academy charges something like $20k a year for tuition. And then there are additional fees and PTA fund raisers and stuff. (I think parents are required to contribute to the school one way or another -- either financially, or get involved with time effort and stuff.) St. Francais Xavier is one of the cheaper private schools, but the place seemed really chaotic when I visited quite a few years ago.
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Old 04-19-2014, 02:56 PM   #47
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Old 04-19-2014, 09:25 PM   #48
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Ouch, 152k is charity. Even our police officers here make 6 figures with overtime. My buddy as a store manager makes just under that.

My uncle, President of a major market, runs a similar sized division of an American corporation in terms of revenue compared to BC Ferries and he is making much more than double that.
Good for your uncle. Like Cubes said, you gotta work as if someone out there is working 24/7 take everything away from you. That is the private sector mentality and again why the wages are so damn high but also justified.

Based on your reply I presume you see where I was coming from regarding crown corps.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:48 PM   #49
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ouch wage rollbacks for walkouts

Government responds with lockout and salary reductions to BC teacher?s strike escalation | Globalnews.ca
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Old 05-22-2014, 12:48 AM   #50
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First it was Bill 28, then Bill 22, and now this?! Hasn't the stupid BC Liberals government learned anything from previous court rulings?

The January decision from the BC Supreme Court has pretty much ruled that the provincial government can't unilaterally change the terms of the teacher's CBA through legislation. And here they are trying the same (or at least, similar) thing again?! Just how fxxking much of our tax dollars and legislative resources does the BC Liberals government want to waste on legal fees when precedence has already shown us that there is a good chance they will get their a$$ sued and lose?

I am going to keep iterating the same thing over and over and over again -- to those who have voted the BC Liberals back in for yet another 4 years, look what you have brought onto us...
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