School districts across B.C. planning deep cuts to balance budgets

[ntan]

Originally Posted by Traum

Also, teachers are technically only paid 10 months of the year. You can arrange to have your pay spread over 12 months instead of 10, but that is a personal decision. So don't look at those 2 summer months as vacation. It might be more appropriate to call it unpaid leave.

Originally Posted by freakshow

Yeah, lot's of teachers try to use this argument. The problem is that admitting that they only work 9-10 months out of the year means that they shouldn't complain about their salary because they should find a summer job each year (they will go bonkers if you bring that up). Then they resort to how hard they work during the other 9 months, but I already told you, many people work equally as hard, if not harder, sometimes for less pay.

As freakshow mentioned, shouldn't you view this as a benefit instead? Say, if teacher makes 50K annually, but only work for 9-10 months, their per-hour wage is effectively higher (20%+ more).

I'm not too familiar with the employment benefits of teachers, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought teachers have a relatively safe career once they're settled in. I work in the private sector (software), and layoffs are common, even for sr. engineers (10+).

[Traum]

^^ I don't necessarily view this as a benefit, and I think it would vary depending on the person. For some, it'll be good because they are free to pursue other things they might want to do, whether it is paid or not. For others (esp those who aren't quite as good in managing their finances), this could be the leanest months precisely during the time when everyone is more prone to spending.

[underscore]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any difficulty a teacher faces that ONLY teachers have to deal with.

Originally Posted by Traum

Work Ethic
Yes, teachers get their 2 months summer break, 2 week spring break and 2 week winter break. But don't forget that it also means they are pretty much tied down for the rest of the year with little flexibility.

Teachers can and do take time off during the school year, but I think most of them choose to take their vacations during the standard vacation periods because it's easier. They also aren't the only ones who have to work vacations around a schedule, lots of people working in accounting have a hard time taking time off at certain times of the month, etc.

[ntan]

Originally Posted by Traum

^^ I don't necessarily view this as a benefit, and I think it would vary depending on the person. For some, it'll be good because they are free to pursue other things they might want to do, whether it is paid or not. For others (esp those who aren't quite as good in managing their finances), this could be the leanest months precisely during the time when everyone is more prone to spending.

As you mentioned, this would vary depending on the person, regardless of career choice. However, the fact is, teachers are paid higher per-hour (and arguably higher than many other careers), albeit with less workable hours.

[quasi]

Exactly, I work 9+ hours everyday plus additional whenever I have to hit a closing date it's part of the job I knew that coming in. Same goes for my vacation, I've had to postpone planned vacations because closing dates got pushed up on me and collided with my time off. It's happened to everyone I work with as well. Last year one of my coworkers was in the Shuswaps he had to work on his project during the day for 3 days well his family is at the beach, drive back for 1 day to close it and drive back and finish his vacation with his family. Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining but it's hard for me to feel bad for the Teachers when they use it an excuse as why they're so hard done by. People deal with shit like that all the time, they aren't that special.

[shenmecar]

Originally Posted by freakshow

Maybe times have changed.. I have a few friends who are teachers, in addition to my wife, and I think the longest I heard someone had to be on-call (which definitely sucks) was 2 years. If 4-7 is the new average.. that would be really crappy.

Its also damn near impossible to land a TOC job. Especially in the lower mainland. Your wife and your friends must've been teachers for awhile because the scarcity of jobs in the lower mainland has been around for a few years now.

[Timpo]

This is going to make Canadian kids DUMB! Japan already made this mistake and they had to fix their education system
They should just learn from Japan this is not going to end well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yutori_education
http://asiasociety.org/education/lea...ucation-reform
http://www.hyogo-u.ac.jp/files/wj_lecture_20050100.pdf

[Jmac]

Love the race to the bottom attitude some people have. As a society, we should be supporting better wages, better working conditions, and better services, IMO. Seems some people won't be happy until we all have sweatshop conditions, sweatshop wages, and still have shit for social services.

[Traum]

I don't even know where to begin applauding. Everything with this letter from a grade 7 teach is just so right, but I will just highlight a couple of points that I thought was especially spot on.

Again, I will ask everyone to consider themselves as voters as they read this. If you voted for the BC Liberals in the last election, you are partially responsible for this as well. Please keep that in mind. (For the record, I have voted for BC Liberals in 2005 and 2009, but gave my vote to the NDP instead last year.)

Letter from B.C. teacher to Christy Clark goes viral

Letter from B.C. teacher to Christy Clark goes viral
Vancouver Sun May 27, 2014 9:24 AM


Ok, Christy Clark, I’m going to need some help understanding this one.

Starting Monday, you will not let me help my students at recess and lunch? It is rare that a day goes by that I don’t have students in during that time who desperately need help. With all the cutbacks with student support and with no regard to my class composition and the needs of the students in my class, how will they learn if I can’t go over concepts with them during my break? And if I do help them, I will be disciplined?

In fact, starting Monday, you insist that we all leave the school property at recess and lunch? Do you have any idea what happens in a school when that bell goes? You want the building to be free of teachers while hundreds of children are transitioning in the hallway? Have you considered the safety factor in that one? So I’m not allowed to use the washroom on my breaks? If I can’t leave my students during class, and I’m not allowed to be in the building during my breaks, are you suggesting that I must go the entire day without using the washroom?

Starting Monday, you’re also telling me that I am only allowed to work 45 minutes prior to the bell and 45 minutes after. I can’t take my work home, I can’t mark at home, I can’t do my report cards at home and I can’t prepare my lessons at home yet you still insist that I do all of these things? Does that mean you will be giving us money finally to buy resources so I don’t have to build all my units from scratch? For every hour in my class, I’m putting in an hour outside of it developing lessons, making resources, planning units and writing report cards. I have no idea how I am supposed to do all of that in 90 minutes a day outside of direct teaching time. Perhaps you want me to do that while the students are in my class? I just can’t, Christy. I want them to learn.

Starting Monday, you will not let me help organize students into classes for next year? So if I know that a child is intimidated by another in my class, or does not work well with someone, I am not able to do anything about that? Have you been in a classroom? There’s a very fine art to separating children who simply are unable to get along, and yet another art to finding children to put together to build new friendships and find a sense of belonging. At my school alone, our teachers invested at least 15 hours last year fine tuning the classrooms, making sure we could make the best of our situation of kids with learning disabilities, with behaviour problems, with IEPs, with social difficulties. I know our school administrators are capable individuals, but they simply do not know how best to place my students, and are not aware of the specifics of the 11 students I have this year who have higher needs.

And, Christy, I’m absolutely crushed that you won’t let me go to my daughter’s grade 7 leaving ceremony at her school. I don’t even work at her school, but you refuse to let me on public school property. Funny thing is, the teacher that is spending countless hours organizing that ‘grad’ also has a child in that class, and she won’t be able to attend it either. I expect we will both be standing outside of school grounds trying to maintain composure. Right now, not that you care, I’m not maintaining composure. I didn’t very well in class today when I told my own grade 7s that I wasn’t allowed to attend their grade 7 leaving. They saw the tears in my eyes.

I know that you will tell me BC teachers started this strike business. We could argue about the logistics of that for quite some time. Do you realize that we chose rotating strikes so we could still volunteer our time on the other days of the week? We were still going on field trips, organizing grad ceremonies, doing extra-curricular, and giving whatever we could to the students in our schools. And now you won’t let us? I look forward to my year end activities with my students. I am not looking forward to telling them that you won’t let me take them.

Do I need a raise? Yes, I truly do. I believe I deserve the 18% you gave your administration, but I’d be happy with keeping up with the cost of living. 4 straight years of 0% is catching up with me. 2 more years of 0% just might break me. Everything is going up, and my paycheque is actually getting smaller. That just doesn’t seem right to me. I just don't understand why I don't deserve the cost of living.


Oh and as long as I’m trying to understand all of this, why is privatization so important to you? You are starving education and healthcare. It seems your plan is to continue to do this so you can say to the public, “Look. The school system is not working! We need to do something different!” At that point, I expect you’ll push your two-tiered education system a little harder, and your next course of business will be a two-tiered health care system. That might work well for you and your well-paid staff, but not for the majority of us. What will most of us do in a two-tiered health care system? Do you just not care because it just does not affect you?

By the way, we DO need to do something different; we need you to start funding education again. I was thinking that in my children’s neighbourhood high school, if you funded just to the national average, they would have $1 000 000 more each year. My own children and I had fun mentally spending that for their school. It was kind of like going through the Sears Wishbook when we were kids, but, like the Wishbook, when someone else is holding the chequebook, it’s all just a dream.

By the way, why is your chequebook out for the private school system? I’m a little confused why you were able to increase funding for those schools but not public schools. Is that because your son attends a private school?

On your Facebook page, you recently said that you are “acknowledging historical wrongs,” but do you realize you’re creating one right now? And you’re right, we can’t undo the past. Take some time to do some research in what investing in our children now will do for our future. And look into what happens if we don’t. It will cost us all a great deal more in the generations to come. I also know you are aware that BC has the highest child poverty rate in Canada, and yet you still have no plan for those children either. All of this is so incomprehensible to me.

You broke the law. Twice. You’ve been told that your tactics with BC Teachers are unconstitutional. To me, that’s not much different than your predecessor who thought it okay to drink and drive and that saying sorry made it all better.

I have so many more questions, Christy, but I expect you’ve long stopped reading. Just on another note, I have to tell you that my 16 year old said to me today that he thought maybe people had to be hurt in some way to be able to really empathize with others. How profound. On that wisdom, I assume you’ve had a brilliant life, as you have no empathy for those you perceive to be below you. I wish all of our citizens of BC could have the same opportunity.

I have never been afraid of a politician before, Christy, but I am afraid of you. I love my province. I’m proud of my province. But I’m afraid there won’t be much left of it when you’re done.

[meme405]

Just to fuel the debate furthur, and admitedly I searched a bit for information but I am kind of looking for someone to aware me here, cause I couldn't find much.

I remember hearing a long time ago, how after a teacher retires after 25 years of teaching, they were more or less entitled to their entire salary as a pension.

If this still holds true then, making 60k a year isn't bad considering that after you retire after only 25 years you will still make 60k. There are many people who work for 40 years now and don't end up making their entire salary as a pension after they retire.

Looking at the BCTF stats on their pension fund it looks to be in pretty good health compared to other systems such as CPP and even some private funds.

On top of all this I know a few accountants and others who work in finance and a lot of them claim that teachers are some of the most reckless people with their money. This is of course just hearsay, and obviously is not representative of all teachers, but if you think about it, it kind of makes sense, you have 2 months off during the summer, instead of getting a job during that period I can imagine a lot of teachers just burning through cash on vacations and activities.

Also when I hear about all this "Pre-planning" and late nights marking and all that shit, thats just procrastination by teachers, kids are only in school for 6 hours a day, any real adult works 9+ hours in a day, so wtf. They should have plenty of time to mark crappy assignments and tests.

Not to mention once a teacher has their course plan and stuff built rarely do they alter it much from year to year, maybe a few new point here, or a couple tweaks there, but they more or less use the exact same format for YEARS.

Realistically I don't believe teachers have a very tasking job. Does that mean I think what we pay them is fair? Meh, I have no idea. Havnt looked into it much, but when people start telling me how hard a teachers life is, I just laugh, cause it ain't.

[westopher]

Originally Posted by freakshow

Maybe times have changed.. I have a few friends who are teachers, in addition to my wife, and I think the longest I heard someone had to be on-call (which definitely sucks) was 2 years. If 4-7 is the new average.. that would be really crappy.

The thing is, thats because an education in anything doesn't GUARANTEE you a full time job in any field. The world is changing, bachelor degrees are a dime a dozen, and if you try and enter a field that has less jobs than qualified candidates, thats your own fault. Someone with an arts institute diploma in culinary arts can't just walk into a restaurant and have a 90k a year exec chef job at a hotel, so why would anyone think that their education degree is any different. The teachers are not immune to a poor canadian economy. I agree it sucks, but if they don't like it, find a new field.

I hope it ends quickly. The kids suffer from this. I was in gr 12 during a 4 week teacher strike in Alberta, and I can assure you it made the last year of my schooling a lot more difficult than it needed to be.

[Traum]

meme405, the pension thing you wrote about is absolutely not true. Currently, even the best paid public pension very roughly works something along the following lines:

retirement pay = (avg salary from the best 5 years) x (years of service, capped at 35 years max) x 2%

Essentially, the most a public pension will pay is 70% of your avg salary from your best (ie. highest paying) 5 years, but if you tap into your pension early (ie. before 65), there are deductions to your pension payout so you won't get 70%. For most people, that means you really have to be doing 35 years' worth of time and hold of on drawing into your pension until you are 65 to get back that much. I have a feeling that the vast majority of public pension earners don't even break the 30 year mark when it comes to pension contribution, and most people will probably want to retire before 65. Also, the years of service calculation depends on the actual amount of time that you worked, not the duration of time you are in the system. Say, if you only teach at 50% workload (probably not atypical for new teachers who are only substituting when they first start?), you only accumulate 1/2 year's worth of service towards your pension calculation.

The exception to the rule, IIRC, are police and firefighters. They earn 3% instead of 2% because of their occupational hazard, but I think their max pension payout is still capped at 70% of their avg salary from their best 5 years.

For teachers, let's say he gets right into the system after ugrad and 1 year's worth of B.Ed. He is 23 when he first starts. Let's say he was working only 50% at first, but is really lucky and finds a full time gig after 2 years. If he works for the next 30 years and retires, he would have accumulated 31 years worth of service, and make 62% of his avg salary from his highest-earning 5 years -- but only if he waits until he is 65. Currently, I think the most a regular teacher earns is somewhere between the low to mid $70k? So roughly speaking, this hypothetical teacher we looked at will be taking ~$45k/yr of pension home after working 30+ years.

So meme405, does that seem like a reasonable amount to you?

[Hehe]

First, full disclosure as my wife's sorta in education field (teaching children with autism), so, I might be a bit biased. But I think BC govt should get their shit together.

Education is not a luxury, but one of the most basic thing govt can provide to make our overall society a better place, which is in the interest of every resident. By cutting corners to our future generations' education, we are basically stealing what they deserved.

Our parents provided us the opportunity to be educated and they paid their share to have a better future for the society. I believe it's our responsibility to at least give that much back to our children.

When hard times come, we should cut on luxuries such as park maintenance, money losing but non-vital ferry routes, sponsorship and/or bonuses/subsidies to crown corps. Are residents going to be affected? sure. But that's the way it is. We can reestablish those luxuries once we have more money, but something gotta give.

[freakshow]

Originally Posted by Traum

For teachers, let's say he gets right into the system after ugrad and 1 year's worth of B.Ed. He is 23 when he first starts. Let's say he was working only 50% at first, but is really lucky and finds a full time gig after 2 years. If he works for the next 30 years and retires, he would have accumulated 31 years worth of service, and make 62% of his avg salary from his highest-earning 5 years -- but only if he waits until he is 65. Currently, I think the most a regular teacher earns is somewhere between the low to mid $70k? So roughly speaking, this hypothetical teacher we looked at will be taking ~$45k/yr of pension home after working 30+ years.

So meme405, does that seem like a reasonable amount to you?

First of all, your math is a little bit crazy.. BEd@23, FT @ 25, Retire @55? Most people HOPE to retire at 65 and have enough money in the bank. So If he retires at 65, he's at 40 years of service.

So yes, yes it does seem MORE than reasonable. You'll be paid 50K a year TILL YOU DIE for doing nothing. Am I reading that wrong? You know what a software developer gets after they retire? CPP. gl hf.

[Traum]

Originally Posted by freakshow

^ Yes, yes it does. You'll be paid 50K a year TILL YOU DIE for doing nothing. Am I reading that wrong? You know what a software developer gets after they retire? CPP. gl hf.

Conveniently, you have neglected to mention how much software developers get while they are working. I know a lot that are in the $85k+ to sub-$100k range, and I know a few who are up to the $140k range. With such a front-loaded salary stream, the extra money that could be earned from investment and compound interest will easily outpace the steady stream earnings from a pension. If someone didn't do their homework on their own retirement planning, should I feel any sympathy towards their demise when they get old?

FYI, the BC average life expectancy is currently 82 years old.

[freakshow]

Originally Posted by Traum

Conveniently, you have neglected to mention how much software developers get while they are working. I know a lot that are in the $85k+ to sub-$100k range, and I know a few who are up to the $140k range. With such a front-loaded salary stream, the extra money that could be earned from investment and compound interest will easily outpace the steady stream earnings from a pension. If someone didn't do their homework on their own retirement planning, should I feel any sympathy towards their demise when they get old?

FYI, the BC average life expectancy is currently 82 years old.

I'm not saying that being a teacher is financially way better or way worse, but that their pension certainly sounds very 'reasonable'.
And FYI, you can't bring up the financial planning argument if you say that the summer is the 'leanest' time for teachers. They can choose to have their salary over 12 months, OR they can use a little bit of financial planning.

[Great68]

Just curious why so many think it's acceptable to have people working in contrary of the employment standards act with respect to working hours, without proper compensation...

I do it too, but:
A) I am management
B) I make a lot more money than the average teacher
C) I make up for it by taking additional time off for the additional hours worked (My boss expects and ensures I do this). If I really wanted, I could be paid out for the extra time but the time off is more valuable to me.

From what I understand, teachers are not management, nor is there a method for them to be compensated for after hours work.

Rather than commenting that "everyone does it, suck it up", should we not be pushing to bring up the working standards for EVERYONE?

I am fortunate to work for an employer that treats their employees well.

Why shouldn't we be pushing all other employers have to elevate their game to the same level rather than setting an expectation that 9+ hour work days without compensation is "Normal"?

[meme405]

Thanks for the explanation Traum, without looking at your calculations and stuff as that wasn't really my point I understand much more.

I guess it does sound pretty fair.

I guess my problem with all of that has nothing to do with teachers whatsoever, it just has to do with societies romantic notion of retirement. The retirement age of 65 is altogether too low.

In the words of daniel tosh:

"65 was an age that was set when people died at 66, or 66 and a half. The problem today is that people LIVE FOREVER, and the economy can't afford it... You want me to fix the economy? Cause I can, you need to be prepared to work reallly, really hard, and then eventually die".

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Great68

Why shouldn't we be pushing all other employers have to elevate their game to the same level rather than setting an expectation that 9+ hour work days without compensation is "Normal"?

Unless you are willing to work hard, and sacrifice, why should you be entitled to higher pay?

The teachers currently make a middle of the road salary for what I would consider middle of the road effort.

It's fine to work 8.5 hours a day and get paid 8 hour of that, but don't expect someone to come along and offer you 150k a year for that type of bullshit effort.

Money doesn't grow on trees, nobody is going to pay some lazy fuck 100k a year for menial effort.

[BrRsn]

Originally Posted by meme405

Unless you are willing to work hard, and sacrifice, why should you be entitled to higher pay?

The teachers currently make a middle of the road salary for what I would consider middle of the road effort.

It's fine to work 8.5 hours a day and get paid 8 hour of that, but don't expect someone to come along and offer you 150k a year for that type of bullshit effort.

Money doesn't grow on trees, nobody is going to pay some lazy fuck 100k a year for menial effort.

maybe you don't know anyone that's a teacher, but the road to becoming a teacher is difficult enough (university degree), then if you want to become a teacher you're on call for x-amount of years getting phone calls at 5am saying "come into work". That's a terrible life but people live it because they want the job. Then after getting a job teaching x-amount of classes their pay isn't even guaranteed because its dependent upon enrollment, and since they have little or no seniority they can be laid off just as quick as they were hired. Ontop of that, there's tons of teachers that are at school at 7am and don't leave until 4 or 5pm everyday -- they don't get paid for that, same thing with the teachers doing extra-curricular activities and volunteering their time so kids can play sports or whatever

Oh, and to max out their pay scale they have to get a masters degree, which isn't cheap either.

I have family who are teachers / are trying to become teachers and even the full-time teachers still maintain a second job at 20-30 hours a week because they know how unstable their job can be. So, I don't think they are putting in a middle of the road effort -- working 2 jobs, commuting between the jobs, being out of the house 16+ hours a day .. doesn't sound like its fun or easy

Back OT:
Christy Clark is screwing teachers pretty damn hard -- before she got her current position as the Premier of BC she was Education Minister and as education minister she used her power to force teachers back to work + prevent collective bargaining ... this whole thing just seems like she's got her own personal motives against teachers and now that's she's premier she has more power against them. Oh yeah, she increased funding to private schools too!

[Great68]

Originally Posted by meme405

The teachers currently make a middle of the road salary for what I would consider middle of the road effort.

So who died and made you an expert on factors which constitute a teacher's performance?

Do you work in education and have any qualifications to support your statement?

Or do you just think your opinion is valid simply because you're a taxpayer?

[Traum]

Originally Posted by Traum

FYI, the BC average life expectancy is currently 82 years old.

One additional thing that I have just thought of:

With the BC avg life expectancy being 82, and the no pension reduction age being 65, the average pension payout amounts to ~17 years. That means 17 years at $45k/yr, for a total of $765k. If we spread this sum back over the 31 years worth of our hypothetical teacher's career, effectively, that means his total pension payout amounts to an annual $24.6k bonus during his regular working years, bringing their max annual salary to roughly $95k to sub-$100k.

To me, paying our longest serving public school teachers this much seem generally reasonable.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Great68

So who died and made you an expert on factors which constitute a teacher's performance?

Do you work in education and have any qualifications to support your statement?

Or do you just think your opinion is valid simply because you're a taxpayer?

Thats why I said "what I consider".

Look I have explained it before, I also have my bachelors degree, on top of that I do many courses a year to maintain my designations as a soon to be PMP, RICS, with CWB and the trades services.

I have struggled just as much as any teacher has to get where I am, the difference is I still work 80 hours a week, and I in turn am paid handsomely for that effort.

Look I am not trying to downplay the benefits of having appropriately paid education workers, nor am I downplaying the work they do. What I am saying is that in my opinion I do not believe they deserve 100k a year.

Originally Posted by dhillon09

maybe you don't know anyone that's a teacher, but the road to becoming a teacher is difficult enough (university degree)

Please keep telling me how hard it is to get a university degree...

Originally Posted by dhillon09

then if you want to become a teacher you're on call for x-amount of years getting phone calls at 5am saying "come into work". That's a terrible life but people live it because they want the job.

I wouldn't know about that, I just get up at 5am and go to work...

Originally Posted by dhillon09

Then after getting a job teaching x-amount of classes their pay isn't even guaranteed because its dependent upon enrollment, and since they have little or no seniority they can be laid off just as quick as they were hired.

And you think my job would be secure if I wasn't such an asset to the company I work for? Hell even though I am such an asset, if the work dries up i'm on the fucking curb.

Originally Posted by dhillon09

Oh, and to max out their pay scale they have to get a masters degree, which isn't cheap either.

Refer to my response above, you think maintaining my trades and professional designations is cheap? On top of that, a masters degree could propel me even further as well, so realistically a moot point.


Before people give me fails understand this: I am not against the teachers here. I'm just saying some people need to re-evaluate their expectations for remuneration. 100k a year for a teacher is simply not going to happen.

[Great68]

Originally Posted by meme405

Thats why I said "what I consider".



Look I am not trying to downplay the benefits of having appropriately paid education workers, nor am I downplaying the work they do. What I am saying is that in my opinion I do not believe they deserve 100k a year.

So basically your opinion means shit.

[meme405]

Originally Posted by Great68

So basically your opinion means shit.

Good attitude, I sincerely hope you are not in an education role.