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Old 05-26-2014, 01:52 PM   #101
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What the media isn't telling you about Elliott Rodger, the psycho killer who murdered six in a soulless rampage

Wow that article is spot-on!!!
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Old 05-26-2014, 05:10 PM   #102
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there (in principle). Someone could be the most intelligent person in the world, but still have mental health issues that cause them to act completely irrationally. It's not like he is a religious murderer going around thinking he is going to go to heaven and finally get laid if he kills a bunch of people. He probably had a very serious mental disease that went untreated, combined with a shitty spoiled self-righteous upbringing.

Much like someone could be an amazing athlete, but lose their performance due to an injury, someone can be really smart but literally "lose their mind" to mental illness and even depression.


Nope. No mental disease. I wouldn't credit grouping him with the people who posses real mental disorders.

- The kid was was able to appreciate what's right and what's wrong and consciously chose to do what's wrong in an effort to inflict pain and damage to the people he hated. There was no justification for what he did other than "revenge". There was no divine voice pushing him to cleanse the world.

- Please, mental disease but he has the forethought to plan, prepare and perpetrate his crime? The kid had a hit list. The kid had a kill heirarchy to maximize efficiency, and each kill had a motivation and purpose.


No, this kid didn't have a mental disease, there's no negating the loser that he is. All it is, is just a kid who wanted to destroy something of others that he couldn't have; Just like a child that would rather destroy someone else's toy just because he doesn't posses one of his own.



Social retardation, is not a mental disease.
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Old 05-26-2014, 05:14 PM   #103
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:42 PM   #104
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Nope. No mental disease. I wouldn't credit grouping him with the people who posses real mental disorders.
First of all, it's not a "credit" to say someone has a mental disease, nor is it an excuse. It's either a fact, or it isn't. Try to take emotional response out of it. It's hard to do for people WITHOUT mental issues, but when it comes to science, you have to do this.
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- The kid was was able to appreciate what's right and what's wrong and consciously chose to do what's wrong in an effort to inflict pain and damage to the people he hated. There was no justification for what he did other than "revenge". There was no divine voice pushing him to cleanse the world.
Exactly.
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- Please, mental disease but he has the forethought to plan, prepare and perpetrate his crime? The kid had a hit list. The kid had a kill heirarchy to maximize efficiency, and each kill had a motivation and purpose.
Being a sociopath does not preclude one from being able to intelligently plan things.
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No, this kid didn't have a mental disease, there's no negating the loser that he is. All it is, is just a kid who wanted to destroy something of others that he couldn't have; Just like a child that would rather destroy someone else's toy just because he doesn't posses one of his own.
I can't say for sure that he did, just that I think he probably did. But you seem to be too emotionally invested to be able to have an opinion one way or another. It seems that you think having a mental disease is an "excuse" of some sort to justify what he did. It isn't... it's just a possibility. If you think having a mental disease takes away your ability to call him a "loser" and a "retard" and that's your reason for disputing it.. well there's no way to argue against that.
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Old 05-26-2014, 09:58 PM   #105
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If Elliot was 22 years old and his sister is younger, which one would you think it was?
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Old 05-26-2014, 11:14 PM   #106
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First of all, it's not a "credit" to say someone has a mental disease, nor is it an excuse. It's either a fact, or it isn't. Try to take emotional response out of it. It's hard to do for people WITHOUT mental issues, but when it comes to science, you have to do this.

Exactly.

Being a sociopath does not preclude one from being able to intelligently plan things.

I can't say for sure that he did, just that I think he probably did. But you seem to be too emotionally invested to be able to have an opinion one way or another. It seems that you think having a mental disease is an "excuse" of some sort to justify what he did. It isn't... it's just a possibility. If you think having a mental disease takes away your ability to call him a "loser" and a "retard" and that's your reason for disputing it.. well there's no way to argue against that.
Good for you to conclude that the crux of my argument is about being able to label him a "loser" or "retard".

You just conveniently glossed over the fact that the argument I challenged was the idea that Elliot Roger was the victim of mental disease; a challenge that was made because in the context of crime, "mental disease" assumes that the individual is not responsible for his/her actions.


So what was your best rebuttal:

"uuuh, just because he can meticulously plan and heavily premeditate his crime doesn't mean he isn't "crazy".

That's it?


Honestly, I can see where you're coming from. Is the kid sad and depressed? Yeah definitely. Was the kid anti-social? Definitely not. He wants to be social, he yearns to be social, he's trying to be social. Socially awkward? Definitely yes, but not anti-social. Was he an angry and jealous kid? You bet.

Sorry but angry and depressed doesn't already mean "mental disease" to me. Additionally, just because his crime is particularly heinous doesn't mean that it must be "mental disease" as well.


I think you're too generous on connecting the dots here.
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Old 05-26-2014, 11:24 PM   #107
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Good for you to conclude that the crux of my argument is about being able to label him a "loser" or "retard".

You just conveniently glossed over the fact that the argument I challenged was the idea that Elliot Roger was the victim of mental disease; a challenge that was made because in the context of crime, "mental disease" assumes that the individual is not responsible for his/her actions.


So what was your best rebuttal:

"uuuh, just because he can meticulously plan and heavily premeditate his crime doesn't mean he isn't "crazy".

That's it?


Honestly, I can see where you're coming from. Is the kid sad and depressed? Yeah definitely. Was the kid anti-social? Definitely not. He wants to be social, he yearns to be social, he's trying to be social. Socially awkward? Definitely yes, but not anti-social. Was he an angry and jealous kid? You bet.

Sorry but angry and depressed doesn't already mean "mental disease" to me. Additionally, just because his crime is particularly heinous doesn't mean that it must be "mental disease" as well.


I think you're too generous on connecting the dots here.
You didn't challenge anything, you just called him a "loser" and a "social retard" completely dismissing the possibility of him being crazy.

I'm not being "generous" either. There are TONS of people who are "forever alone" whiners who bitch and moan and don't do anything to improve themselves. There aren't very many who go on a shooting rampage, killing 6 people. The people who do the latter, my first assumption is going to be that it's not simply a "loser" who got fed up and just hates women, but rather someone with a deep seeded mental illness.
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Old 05-27-2014, 12:31 AM   #108
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Fuck this piece of shit D-bag. We shouldn't be talking about him or even say his name or giving 'what if' scenarios regarding his pitiful existence.

This guy planned an carried out the execution of multiple people at random and then killed himself.

Throw his carcass in the woods and let the maggots eat his body from the inside out.

Another social loser who will have 15 min of post-mortem fame before zero fucks given. Why not just skip to the last part?
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:06 AM   #109
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You didn't challenge anything, you just called him a "loser" and a "social retard" completely dismissing the possibility of him being crazy.
Yes! Because like I said, the dots are just too far for me to connect. A sad, socially awkward and angry kid does not a mental illness make. That's exactly what my challenge is.

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I'm not being "generous" either. There are TONS of people who are "forever alone" whiners who bitch and moan and don't do anything to improve themselves. There aren't very many who go on a shooting rampage, killing 6 people. The people who do the latter, my first assumption is going to be that it's not simply a "loser" who got fed up and just hates women, but rather someone with a deep seeded mental illness.
So are you saying that violence of such magnitude is possible only by fault of mental defect?

How about about examples of others who went on a rampage also motivated by disillusionment? Are the following also just victims of mental disease?

- Chris Dorner who went on a murdering spree because of his dissillusion with the police department, or authoritative bodies in general and the corruption of justice?

- Klebold & Harris who went on a rampage because of the current social culture that breeds outcasts.

- Timothy McVeigh who wanted to destroy as much as he can as an open revolt to a government he felt tyrannical.


Does the magnitude of their crimes dictate that they "must be" or "probably" are victims of mental disease as well or are you just giving Rogers the benefit of the doubt because you're swayed by his emo videos?

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Old 05-27-2014, 01:40 AM   #110
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lol, crazy or not, above everything else... i think he just needed a friend.







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Old 05-27-2014, 01:51 AM   #111
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Yes! Because like I said, the dots are just too far for me to connect. A sad, socially awkward and angry kid does not a mental illness make. That's exactly what my challenge is.



So are you saying that violence of such magnitude is possible only by fault of mental defect?

How about about examples of others who went on a rampage also motivated by disillusionment? Are the following also just victims of mental disease?

- Chris Dorner who went on a murdering spree because of his dissillusion with the police department, or authoritative bodies in general and the corruption of justice?

- Klebold & Harris who went on a rampage because of the current social culture that breeds outcasts.

- Timothy McVeigh who wanted to destroy as much as he can as an open revolt to a government he felt tyrannical.


Does the magnitude of their crimes dictate that they "must be" or "probably" are victims of mental disease as well or are you just giving Rogers the benefit of the doubt because you're swayed by his emo videos?
Not going to argue a bunch of fallacies.. let's just agree to disagree
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:14 AM   #112
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There's conflicting reports that he was diagnosed with Asperger disease at the age of 8 so he was suffering from a mental illness.
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Old 05-27-2014, 11:43 AM   #113
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His inability to have any social understanding?
I think because he had no masculine influence and nobody to show him game, his high intelligence chose to focus on everything nihilistic and negative about his existence. Intelligence can been seen as a lens that allows greater and greater possible focus when directed properly, his was simply focused on what he lacked. Not only that, but he knew he was on the bottom of the social totem pole and began to stew in his own rage.

Having higher testosterone, being more social, having more masculine influences, there are so many things that could have helped this kid OUTSIDE of therapy or coddling by mom. In fact, the coddling and feminine soft-glove therapist approach probably fucked him up waaaaaay more.

Having a tough life builds character, he had none.
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Old 05-27-2014, 11:44 AM   #114
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We shouldn't be talking about him or even say his name or giving 'what if' scenarios regarding his pitiful existence.

I firmly believe with the way our society is headed we will see more of these outcast men going on rampages, public or private.(Serial killers, etc etc)
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:05 PM   #115
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Richard Martinez grew up around guns, shooting birds out of the fruit trees on his family’s farm. He later served as a military police officer in the U.S. Army before going on to become a criminal defense lawyer, at times representing the young and the violent.

Now, Martinez is a grieving father.

He’s asking members of Congress to stop calling him to offer condolences but nothing more for the death of his only child, Christopher Michaels-Martinez, who was killed in the rampage Friday in Santa Barbara, Calif.

“I don’t care about your sympathy. I don’t give a s--- that you feel sorry for me,” Richard Martinez said during an extensive interview, his face flushed as tears rolled down his face. “Get to work and do something. I’ll tell the president the same thing if he calls me. Getting a call from a politician doesn’t impress me.”

“I understand this is a complicated problem. I have friends who are in the NRA. I grew up on a farm. I hunted. I killed animals. I understand guns,” Martinez said. “But assault rifles and semiautomatic weapons? There is no need for those except in war.”
Father of victim in Santa Barbara shootings to politicians: ?I don?t care about your sympathy.? - The Washington Post
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Old 05-27-2014, 07:05 PM   #116
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An in-depth look at Elliot Rodger's Isla Vista, California mass shooting, manifesto and the lead up to these tragic events

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Old 05-27-2014, 07:48 PM   #117
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Yes! Because like I said, the dots are just too far for me to connect. A sad, socially awkward and angry kid does not a mental illness make. That's exactly what my challenge is.



So are you saying that violence of such magnitude is possible only by fault of mental defect?

How about about examples of others who went on a rampage also motivated by disillusionment? Are the following also just victims of mental disease?

- Chris Dorner who went on a murdering spree because of his dissillusion with the police department, or authoritative bodies in general and the corruption of justice?

- Klebold & Harris who went on a rampage because of the current social culture that breeds outcasts.

- Timothy McVeigh who wanted to destroy as much as he can as an open revolt to a government he felt tyrannical.


Does the magnitude of their crimes dictate that they "must be" or "probably" are victims of mental disease as well or are you just giving Rogers the benefit of the doubt because you're swayed by his emo videos?
Mental illness and murdering rampages do not have any causal connection (probably) as you have pointed out. There are many people with mental illnesses that do not go on murdering rampages, and mass murderers who probably dont have mental illnesses.

There is no "benefit" to saying Rodgers does or does not have mental illness. We as a society judge people's actions and their mental capacity to commit said actions. The only mitigating factors seem to be clinical insanity and debilitating mental retardation, where consequences of actions are concepts that these individuals do not posess.

But in this case, it is quite clear that Rodgers does indeed have a mental illness, known as narcissistic personality disorder. Through his videos, one can take a glimpse into his mindset and notice the glaring symptoms or characteristics of this particular personality disorder. With this in mind, it would be disingenious to offhandly dismiss the very clear indications that he had a rather severe case of narcissism, and only call him a sad, angry, lonely loser. One cannot ignore his severe narcissism as a very probable cause of his murders.

Once again, whether or not he has the mental illness does not excuse his actions in any way, but only offers a slight explanation of why he did things, and perhaps a possible vector to help prevent further similar incidents.
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Old 05-27-2014, 11:17 PM   #118
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I worry that this will spur on other men in similar scenarios, with similar delusions to do the same thing. Look at all of the attention he is getting. If he were still alive, he'd be loving this. Disturbing that there was actually a Facebook account that labelled him a hero. Think of the men in his shoes who might think "hey, great idea, except I won't kill myself at the end and then I'll be famous!"... Misogyny + sense of entitlement + narcissism = a dangerous cocktail. I wish I had never watched his videos, they're chilling, especially because I know there are more like him out there and we might start seeing more of them.
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Old 05-28-2014, 12:31 AM   #119
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I worry that this will spur on other men in similar scenarios, with similar delusions to do the same thing.

Sex = power


When people have no power, they get desperate.


When a woman wants sexual power, she becomes a stripper or pornstar which gets her money, possibly even rich + famous and crossing over into the mainstream. A man generally does not have this option for easy validation + attention.


Return of Kings had a great quote, society says to the introvert nerd "Let them eat cake", only this time, "cake" is actually video games and pornhub.


What we're witnessing, I think, is the future definition of our social strata. Some men cannot help but realize they are incapable of being loved for who they are, and instead of having a route for easy attention and fame through talent, their bodies or their minds, they turn to the only other clearly available route for who they think they are:

Mass violence.



When Cho had this photo taken, do you think he wanted to appear frightening and powerful? Of course. He probably felt incredibly powerful looking at this and knowing the heartbreak he was about to cause literally thousands of people connected to the people he slaughtered, the faculty of the school, and the legacy of blood he would forever stain Virginia Tech with.

As much as women aspire to be icons of unrestrained sex, guys like Cho wanted to be remembered as icons of unrestrained violence.

Another point I'd like to make is that mass murder wasn't common before WW2; it has severely ramped up since the internet and the proliferation of anti-depressant use.

If women have a monopoly on sexual power, men have it on violence. Instead of restraining each other, both male and female, we encourage it. Shit, look at World Star Hip Hop's weekly suckerpunch compilations!!! Literally millions of people entertained by other people getting punched out and potentially getting brain damaged from landing unconscious, head-first on concrete. Pornstars get world wide attention on TV and are praised for showing off their narcissism, much like violent people are made out as anti-heros in the name of reality news/entertainment. What are the youth learning about how to get attention?

Who doesn't know about Columbine? Sandy Hook? Isla Villa?

Life is like a movie, the people who are desperate enough to be famous will find the easiest possible route to self-express.

Last edited by multicartual; 05-28-2014 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:24 AM   #120
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Mental illness and murdering rampages do not have any causal connection (probably) as you have pointed out. There are many people with mental illnesses that do not go on murdering rampages, and mass murderers who probably dont have mental illnesses.

There is no "benefit" to saying Rodgers does or does not have mental illness. We as a society judge people's actions and their mental capacity to commit said actions. The only mitigating factors seem to be clinical insanity and debilitating mental retardation, where consequences of actions are concepts that these individuals do not posess.

But in this case, it is quite clear that Rodgers does indeed have a mental illness, known as narcissistic personality disorder. Through his videos, one can take a glimpse into his mindset and notice the glaring symptoms or characteristics of this particular personality disorder. With this in mind, it would be disingenious to offhandly dismiss the very clear indications that he had a rather severe case of narcissism, and only call him a sad, angry, lonely loser. One cannot ignore his severe narcissism as a very probable cause of his murders.

Once again, whether or not he has the mental illness does not excuse his actions in any way, but only offers a slight explanation of why he did things, and perhaps a possible vector to help prevent further similar incidents.
You don't really need to seek a "slight explanation" to determine the motivations behind his actions when he repeatedly admitted and documented them on his countless video blogs.

So why is the "mental illness" angle so signficant? to explain the cause of his motivations?


Despite you claiming that there's no excuse, if the "mental illness" is the cause of the motivation, and the motivation is reason behind the action, aren't we saying.... Elliot Rogers couldn't help his murder spree?
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:29 AM   #121
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You don't really need to seek a "slight explanation" to determine the motivations behind his actions when he repeatedly admitted and documented them on his countless video blogs.

So why is the "mental illness" angle so signficant? to explain the cause of his motivations?


Despite you claiming that there's no excuse, if the "mental illness" is the cause of the motivation, and the motivation is reason behind the action, aren't we saying.... Elliot Rogers couldn't help his murder spree?
You keep acting as though mental illness somehow lets people off the hook for their actions, or that it's an excuse... Once you get over that, maybe you will be able to understand
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Old 05-28-2014, 12:12 PM   #122
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:05 PM   #123
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"Mental health" is obviously the new big thing - perhaps rightfully so - as more and more symptoms and a variety of terms all get funneled through into a big cup named Mental Health.

Take the rising number of people who are labelled with mental health problems, give them means of grouping and planning acts of terrible violence, provide them with easy outlets of acquiring tools needed to carry out these plans, and you have these tragic events that seem to happen more frequently.

50 years ago, crazy people lived in the woods with 400 cats. Now they plan and execute mass murder.
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:07 PM   #124
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Good article from that guy everybody hated on Jeopardy:

Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds - The Daily Beast

Quote:
We are not the lovable nerdy protagonist who’s lovable because he’s the protagonist. We’re not guaranteed to get laid by the hot chick of our dreams as long as we work hard enough at it. There isn’t a team of writers or a studio audience pulling for us to triumph by “getting the girl” in the end. And when our clever ruses and schemes to “get girls” fail, it’s not because the girls are too stupid or too bitchy or too shallow to play by those unwritten rules we’ve absorbed.

It’s because other people’s bodies and other people’s love are not something that can be taken nor even something that can be earned—they can be given freely, by choice, or not.
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Sonick is a genius. I won't go into detail what's so great about his post. But it's damn good!
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:48 PM   #125
I *Fwap* *Fwap* *Fwap* to RS
 
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