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Old 12-01-2014, 05:46 AM   #251
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It doesn't matter what the person says that made the 911 call whether or not the gun is fake. Even the 1% chance that it is a real gun the police need to act the same regardless.

I would never expect a police officer to approach the situation other than to believe the gun is real.
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Old 12-01-2014, 11:58 AM   #252
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So even if a baby was holding a real gun, police should shoot to kill? The kid who died was 12 years old. Were you robbing banks at 12? The officer who shot the black boy commented how he thought the victim was 20 years old.

I don't want anything to happen to police officers but when they sign up for the job, like joining the army, there are great risks. I expect officers to try to deescalate situations. If not, we could have drones do their jobs.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:03 PM   #253
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So even if a baby was holding a real gun, police should shoot to kill? The kid who died was 12 years old. Were you robbing banks at 12? The officer who shot the black boy commented how he thought the victim was 20 years old.

I don't want anything to happen to police officers but when they sign up for the job, like joining the army, there are great risks. I expect officers to try to deescalate situations. If not, we could have drones do their jobs.
When it comes down to it, it's your life on the line. Are you really going to bet your own life, who supports a wife, kids maybe, on an uncertainty instead of doing what you can to survive? Dunno about you, but if someone pulls a "gun-shaped" object at me, I'd draw my gun and shoot them first. I'm not going to waste my time and possibly die trying to see if it has a little orange tip...

Police officers are trained to always assume a gun is real, because many officers have died trying to determine if it was fake or real first before acting appropriately.

Maybe this is why I am not a cop. But 12 and 20 years of age are pretty difficult to tell in the dark when you're stressed and possibly panicking, I mean I was 5'6 120lbs at 12 years old... not to mention even in Vancouver, let alone more dangerous cities gangs are known to recruit kids as mules, traffickers, even dealers or decoys because they know police will hesitate. Police work is hard work, and it really sucks that the Officer in this case has to live the rest of his life facing the consequences of a split-second decision... it's not all black and white.
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Old 12-01-2014, 12:13 PM   #254
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So even if a baby was holding a real gun, police should shoot to kill? The kid who died was 12 years old. Were you robbing banks at 12? The officer who shot the black boy commented how he thought the victim was 20 years old.
Your point isn't very reasonable. This is the fucking states, where more than a handful of 12 year olds HAVE shot someone. A 12 year old isn't a baby.
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Old 12-01-2014, 06:16 PM   #255
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personally, i hear on the news about how kids ranging from 13-17 are involved in more criminal behavior then every before....so not surprised a 12 year old pointing a gun at people like a Jr. Thug....
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Old 12-01-2014, 07:27 PM   #256
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So even if a baby was holding a real gun, police should shoot to kill? The kid who died was 12 years old. Were you robbing banks at 12? The officer who shot the black boy commented how he thought the victim was 20 years old.

I don't want anything to happen to police officers but when they sign up for the job, like joining the army, there are great risks. I expect officers to try to deescalate situations. If not, we could have drones do their jobs.
Did you think before you posted this? There is really no need to have any further discussion with you when you drop this kind of reasoning.
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Old 12-02-2014, 12:00 PM   #257
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So even if a baby was holding a real gun, police should shoot to kill? The kid who died was 12 years old. Were you robbing banks at 12? The officer who shot the black boy commented how he thought the victim was 20 years old.

I don't want anything to happen to police officers but when they sign up for the job, like joining the army, there are great risks. I expect officers to try to deescalate situations. If not, we could have drones do their jobs.
The officers had no way of knowing that the gun was fake or the age of the person who had it. Sorry but anyone waving a gun around (an a bb/pellet gun is still a gun btw) that doesn't comply with orders from the police and gets shot is getting zero sympathy from me.
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Old 12-02-2014, 03:27 PM   #258
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You guys criticizing Tamir Rice are ridiculous... he's 12!! what were you doing at 12? probably running around your Elementary School playing cops and robbers....

You're also forgetting that Tamir Rice lives in Cleveland, Ohio where not only is it legal to own guns it's legal to Open-Carry without a license
Police should have approached knowing the law because up to that point from what the police were able to observe the child did nothing wrong

But even as you can see in the video the moment they charge in and jump out of the car A-Team style they've fired on him

How you can go on defending that and criticizing the kid for being more responsible is
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:19 PM   #259
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Roughly 20 years ago when I was that age 12 year olds weren't committing murder and being sentenced as adults in the prison system. Times change so your comparison is ridiculous. A 12 year old is more than capable of committing acts of violence and while they are not mentally capable to understand the consequences they still have the ability to make a consciousness decision to pull the trigger unlike say a baby in one of the comments above.

Pretty sure an open carry law does now allow people to point the gun in public areas. So if you saw the video then you would see that the person is pointing the gun in what could be viewed as a dangerous and threatening manner. Which is the reason why multiple people called 911. Had no one been scared, threatened or worried by his actions then the police would not have been notified.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:42 PM   #260
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regardless of reports there have been countless reports in separate instances of people carrying guns out in the open (look at youtube) people can and do exaggerate their fears to 911 so police consider the reports but ultimately they go into a scene and assess what they observe, the kid didn't even have the gun in the open at the time of police arrival and they should know that citizens are allowed to open-carry even without a license so if they were responsible they do not go in guns blazing it's the reasonable and proper thing to do

what you suggest is erratic and irresponsible! under those circumstances people could make false 911 reports (not uncommon) saying someone is waving a weapon around and have the police commit a murder for them (if we accept police to go in guns blazing as normal)
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:22 AM   #261
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The officers had no way of knowing that the gun was fake or the age of the person who had it. Sorry but anyone waving a gun around (an a bb/pellet gun is still a gun btw) that doesn't comply with orders from the police and gets shot is getting zero sympathy from me.
The man who called 911 on Tamir Rice told the operator at least three times that the gun may be fake. If the officer knew that why did he shoot? Tamir Rice was at a playground at the time, probably playing cops and robbers.

If you've read the story, you would know the officer is a rookie.

It's outrageous that another police officer has killed an UNARMED youth. I guess most of you believe police training is adequate.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:31 AM   #262
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Nancy Grace, of all people, using a bit of logic in the Michael Brown case
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:37 AM   #263
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You speculate that Tamir Rice was playing cops and robbers, didn't look like that to me, it looks more like he was being an idiot trying to scare people by pulling the airsoft gun on random people, he purposely removed the orange tip cap to make the gun look more real. This wasn't a bunch of kids playing cops and robbers with each other with plastic toy guns.

Open carry isn't the issue, the kid reached for his waistband where the gun was, that was what got him shot. Those that open carry have to keep their firearms holstered, not aiming the firearm at people and don't go reaching for it when confronted by police officers. Yea its tragic and maybe the kid reacted out of shock instinctively reaching for his waistband/gun or maybe he is just an idiot looking for trouble, but reaching for/towards the gun is what got him shot.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:04 AM   #264
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Barkley on Ferguson

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(CNN) -- Charles Barkley -- who once said he doesn't create controversies, he just brings them to our attention -- is at it again.

The basketball analyst for Turner Sports and former NBA great isn't backing away from comments he made on the radio recently that people who torched buildings in Ferguson are "scumbags" and some blacks degrade successful African-Americans too often as not black enough.

Barkley also agreed with the grand jury's decision not to indict former Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson, who is white, for fatally shooting an unarmed black teenager.
In an interview with CNN's Brooke Baldwin on Tuesday, Barkley repeatedly came back to one point: He doesn't believe that white cops are out to shoot black people because of racism.

"That's ridiculous," he said.

Barkley called for dialogue, and not just after a controversial incident like the Michael Brown shooting.

"We never discuss race in this country until something bad happens," he said. And even then it usually reflects a "tribe mentality."

"Everybody wants to protect their own tribe, whether they are right or wrong," he said.
Barkley, who has had several of his own run-ins with police, lamented that there are too many communities that call for cops to come in and clean up the neighborhood, then cry racial profiling when they do and something happens.

"We as black people, we have a lot of crooks. We can't just wait until something like (the Brown shooting) happens. We have to look at ourselves in the mirror," he said of people in black communities. "There is a reason that they racially profile us in the way they do. Sometimes it is wrong, and sometimes it is right.

Barkley also criticized the rioters who set buildings and police cars on fire in Ferguson. They were set on destruction, no matter the grand jury's decision, he believes.
Instead, everyone should be like the majority of the people who took to the streets in Ferguson and other cities, or like the NFL players who held up their hands as a symbolic gesture before a game.

"Anybody who walks out peacefully, who protests peacefully, that's what this country was built on," he said. "But to be burning people's property, burning police cars, looting people's stores, that is 100% ridiculous."

Brown's stepfather shouldn't be charged with inciting a riot, he said. (The stepfather, Louis Head, was captured on video yelling "burn this bitch down" after the grand jury's decision was announced.)

It was an awful thing to say, but worrying about issues like that clouds the situation, Barkley said.

"One of the problems with this entire situation is there's so much noise going on, you never get to the crux of the issue that you need to be discussing," Barkley said.

In the lengthy interview, Barkley and Baldwin also talked about the Eric Garner case, Ray Rice and the NFL, Chris Rock's comment about income disparity and what the future will be like for the Hall of Famer's former team, the 0-17 Philadelphia 76ers.

Barkley: 'Brainwashed' blacks hold up success
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/us/charles-barkley-on-race/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:23 PM   #265
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You speculate that Tamir Rice was playing cops and robbers,
no i speculated that's what we were doing at 12 to jar memories of us as kids pointing guns at people and things going "bang bang" which should make you realize as a kid you run around doing stupid childish shit becuase you're a kid which should then make you think "yeah it looks like Tamir was playing" after all he was just standing in the same spot playing with himself whiling the time away.

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Open carry isn't the issue, the kid reached for his waistband where the gun was, that was what got him shot. Those that open carry have to keep their firearms holstered, not aiming the firearm at people and don't go reaching for it when confronted by police officers. Yea its tragic and maybe the kid reacted out of shock instinctively reaching for his waistband/gun or maybe he is just an idiot looking for trouble, but reaching for/towards the gun is what got him shot.
Open Carry is very much the issue as it should have great bearing on how the officers enter the situation after their assessment of the scene (kid was literally just chilling under the gazebo); they literally rushed their car into the park on the grass right in front of the kid and jumped out firing that is absolutely irresponsible and the onus for responsible behaviour is on the officers not the child

the issue, for me, is how the officers entered the situation as it induces irrational behaviour from all parties

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Old 12-03-2014, 02:09 PM   #266
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Tamir Rice being 12 years old to me has no bearing on anything. It is not uncommon to see individuals younger than 18 in the US with firearms especially in certain neighborhoods, and no this is not just a black thing, take a trip to the LA metro area and you will come across many "children" involved in criminal activity with firearms, Asian ones in San Gabriel, Mexican ones in East LA, etc... Again, keep in mind Tamir Rice in this case purposely removed the orange tip cap to make his airsoft gun appear real and he wasn't playing around with himself or friends, he was pointing and waving the gun at random people, a 12 year old knows enough to know this isn't playing. After the officers approach, it didn't matter if they thought Tamir Rice was 30, 20 or 12 years old, as soon as the subject reached towards/for the gun, the officer had to respond.

The thing I will agree on with you is that the tactical approach taken by these officers was poor. The approach shown on the video/series of still images would be one responding to an active shooter where the intent was to subdue or eliminate the threat, providing a resolution quickly. The officers in this case will need to explain why they perceived the subject as an active threat and chose that method of approach.

All in all this appears to be a tragic series of decisions made by all parties.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:49 PM   #267
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The man who called 911 on Tamir Rice told the operator at least three times that the gun may be fake. If the officer knew that why did he shoot? Tamir Rice was at a playground at the time, probably playing cops and robbers.

If you've read the story, you would know the officer is a rookie.

It's outrageous that another police officer has killed an UNARMED youth. I guess most of you believe police training is adequate.
Any gun *may* be fake, and as I said before, an airsoft/bb gun is still a gun. Either way, it doesn't matter because the officer has no way to know what kind of gun it is until the officer seizes it or it's fired so every gun or "gun" should be treated the exact same way. It's not "outrageous" that the officer fired because:

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the kid reached for his waistband where the gun was, that was what got him shot.
If you ignore an officers commands and make a move for a gun you're going to get shot.

I'm not sure what relevance the officer being a rookie is supposed to have.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:14 PM   #268
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the officer's mistake was driving right up to the kid.. why would you ever drive right up to someone who could have a gun? Putting yourself in close quarters immediately limits your options. Surely he could have stopped a bit further back to warn the kid or assess the situation better.

However, since he did drive up to the kid, the kid had a million options, the worst of which is to reach for his gun.. for that, the cop had no choice but to shoot.

My 5 year old nephew knows what guns are, and definitely knows that when an officer approaches you, you go on your best behaviour. To insinuate that a 12yo wouldn't know any better seems to demonstrate a clear ignorance on how much a 12yo can know and perceive about situations.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:28 PM   #269
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Did you not read my comment? If the operator had told the officer the gun may be fake do you think a seasoned officer would still shoot within 2 seconds of arriving? Please watch at 27s:


Based on your logic, if police were to respond to a call at a paintball or lazer tag arena then there would be a massacre.

Would you shoot if you were the officer? I cannot reason with you if you would. I think cops are trained to be cowards now. They take zero risks. They shoot first and ask questions later. I'm not sure about you but I want officers to be peace officers and not war officers.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:10 PM   #270
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Easy for everyone to sit here, in their comfy ass chairs and point fingers.. I'm personally saying that if ANYONE pointed a gun at me, I'm not thinking even for A SECOND. I'm defending my self and going home to see my family.

That's what officers are trained to do.

There is no way in hell I'd risk my life to see if this kid's gun was real or fake. If this 12 year old doesn't have the common sense to not take out a weapon, that is real or fake, in front of a cop, then I'm worried about what life holds in the future.
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Did you not read my comment? If the operator had told the officer the gun may be fake...
"May" is very different from "is". "May" in this case is being based (supposedly) on a single caller's OPINION. Who says that caller knows anything about guns? Who says that caller actually has a clear view of the gun? Who says what that caller is basing his opinion on?

Which is better: the cop takes the caller's opinion into consideration and still proceeds as if it's a real gun, the kid points the gun at the cop, and is shot for that action?

Or the cop takes the caller at his word, assumes it's a fake gun, and gets shot the minute he steps out of his car?

Or the cop takes the caller at his word, proceeds as if it's a fake gun... it turns out it's not and some innocent bystander gets shot because the cop didn't take the gunman down when he had the chance?

"To serve and PROTECT" means to protect EVERYONE, not just the guy waving a gun around and being threatening. The cop MUST proceed with the public safety foremost in mind, or he's not doing his job.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:13 PM   #272
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Easy for everyone to sit here, in their comfy ass chairs and point fingers.. I'm personally saying that if ANYONE pointed a gun at me, I'm not thinking even for A SECOND. I'm defending my self and going home to see my family.

That's what officers are trained to do.
Exactly this. And they aren't just protecting themselves... their JOB is to protect ALL OF US. At the end of the day, THAT IS THEIR WHOLE JOB.
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:27 PM   #273
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Whenever a gun is involved I'll side with the police for shooting someone. The sad part is, replace that kids gun with a baseball bat in that video and watch it play out the same way, and some people here will still side with the cops.
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Old 12-03-2014, 06:09 PM   #274
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Exactly this. And they aren't just protecting themselves... their JOB is to protect ALL OF US. At the end of the day, THAT IS THEIR WHOLE JOB.
Which would include this boy btw.
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Based on your logic, if police were to respond to a call at a paintball or lazer tag arena then there would be a massacre.
Except a paintball marker looks absofuckinglutely nothing like a gun. Also there really needs to be more info provided on that CCTV video as it's not a constant feed, so the time depends on the frame rate and if any frames have been removed.

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Whenever a gun is involved I'll side with the police for shooting someone. The sad part is, replace that kids gun with a baseball bat in that video and watch it play out the same way, and some people here will still side with the cops.
The important thing is how you act, be it a gun or a bat or anything else (since guns are legal to carry openly in some places), if someone moves for a weapon when an officer is giving you orders and they get shot I'm going to have a hard time siding with that person.
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