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Old 11-28-2014, 02:25 PM   #176
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Some of this thread reads straight out of a Koch playbook LOL. I'm comfortably middle class myself, and it never shocks me when I see how many people especially in Vancouver or online for that matter who are so quick to kick and blame the poorest in our communities. The ironic thing as well is most of these people who are so vigilantly against the raising of the minimum wage, will never own a business themselves in the first place.

We're already dealing with major inflation in BC, salaries have lagged behind this inflation by a large margin since the 80's.

While raising the minimum wage won't fix the issue, it's certainly something that requires addressing. A lot of you in this thread speaking on the business-side argument fail to account the financial tax burden of these low paid under-skilled workers with families that must utilize the social systems we have in place in order to stay afloat. We as tax payers are funding these programs to the benefit of the businesses that underpay their employees. I think this is a major point that is ignored when people argue against minimum wage laws.

One would assume that by raising the minimum wage for the lowest paid workers, in time that would result in the raising of wages for middle-class level earners.

Whether or not this would be the case surely can be argued, but we all know there is a major issue here in wealth disparity, we can all agree on this, where are the other solutions than?

For all the doom and gloomers, can you provide us any data (not written by some right-wing think tank) that shows the economy plummeting in cities in the States that have already gone ahead and raised their minimum wage to $15?

I'm interested in both sides of this argument.
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Old 11-28-2014, 05:23 PM   #177
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Old 11-28-2014, 07:12 PM   #178
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:22 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by mikemhg View Post
Some of this thread reads straight out of a Koch playbook LOL. I'm comfortably middle class myself, and it never shocks me when I see how many people especially in Vancouver or online for that matter who are so quick to kick and blame the poorest in our communities. The ironic thing as well is most of these people who are so vigilantly against the raising of the minimum wage, will never own a business themselves in the first place.

We're already dealing with major inflation in BC, salaries have lagged behind this inflation by a large margin since the 80's.

While raising the minimum wage won't fix the issue, it's certainly something that requires addressing. A lot of you in this thread speaking on the business-side argument fail to account the financial tax burden of these low paid under-skilled workers with families that must utilize the social systems we have in place in order to stay afloat. We as tax payers are funding these programs to the benefit of the businesses that underpay their employees. I think this is a major point that is ignored when people argue against minimum wage laws.

One would assume that by raising the minimum wage for the lowest paid workers, in time that would result in the raising of wages for middle-class level earners.

Whether or not this would be the case surely can be argued, but we all know there is a major issue here in wealth disparity, we can all agree on this, where are the other solutions than?

For all the doom and gloomers, can you provide us any data (not written by some right-wing think tank) that shows the economy plummeting in cities in the States that have already gone ahead and raised their minimum wage to $15?

I'm interested in both sides of this argument.
I am sure my work place won't raise my wage up if min wage is up. I am sure many other companies will do the same? So Min wage goes up, everything we buy goes up due to cost but my wage remains the same so in terms I am having less buying power.

There will always be ppl who use social programs no matter how much min wage is raise.
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Old 11-29-2014, 04:32 PM   #180
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I am sure my work place won't raise my wage up if min wage is up. I am sure many other companies will do the same? So Min wage goes up, everything we buy goes up due to cost but my wage remains the same so in terms I am having less buying power.

There will always be ppl who use social programs no matter how much min wage is raise.
Minimum wage goes up people spend more creating more jobs. More jobs equals a grater demand for workers. Greater demand for workers equals higher pay. That's another way to look at it.
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:11 PM   #181
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Minimum wage goes up people spend more creating more jobs. More jobs equals a grater demand for workers. Greater demand for workers equals higher pay. That's another way to look at it.
Business have to pay more to workers, cut jobs to save cost, more ppl unemployed, gov spend more on EI, less ppl spending coz they have no job, economy slows down.
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:19 PM   #182
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Minimum wage goes up, small businesses need to lay off workers, creating a glut of minimally-skilled workers, having zero effect on the pay level of skilled trades.

That's another way to look at it.

Everyone brings up big megacorps like McDonalds and Wal-Mart and how they "should be able to afford" to pay higher minimums... problem is, for small businesses, the math is a lot easier: you can have three people working 40 hours a week at $10/hr, or two people at $15/hr., for the same price. Keeping that third person on is going to cost your company an extra $200/wk... that's could half your store's monthly rent right there. Half its electric bill. Your business insurance premiums. For a small company operating on paper-thin margins, it could be difference between staying open or just folding up shop.
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:31 PM   #183
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Business have to pay more to workers, cut jobs to save cost, more ppl unemployed, gov spend more on EI, less ppl spending coz they have no job, economy slows down.
But the workers have more money so they spend more making businesses more money.
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:36 PM   #184
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Minimum wage goes up, small businesses need to lay off workers, creating a glut of minimally-skilled workers, having zero effect on the pay level of skilled trades.

That's another way to look at it.

Everyone brings up big megacorps like McDonalds and Wal-Mart and how they "should be able to afford" to pay higher minimums... problem is, for small businesses, the math is a lot easier: you can have three people working 40 hours a week at $10/hr, or two people at $15/hr., for the same price. Keeping that third person on is going to cost your company an extra $200/wk... that's could half your store's monthly rent right there. Half its electric bill. Your business insurance premiums. For a small company operating on paper-thin margins, it could be difference between staying open or just folding up shop.
If wages go up McDonald's will have to higher more workers because the demand for there food will go up.

Look at Coscto they seem to do fine paying there workers more. They also provide full benefits. Costco also has a lower employee turnover rate compared to McDonald's and Walmart. So they spend less money on hiring and training workers.
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:41 PM   #185
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Look at Coscto they seem to do fine paying there workers more. They also provide full benefits. Costco also has a lower employee turnover rate compared to McDonald's and Walmart. So they spend less money on hiring and training workers.
This is a ridiculous comparison that needs to go away already. Costco's business has no relation to McDonalds, and the only similarity to Wal-Mart is that they're both selling SOME similar goods.

Different companies, different models, serving different markets.

Or, you know, you could throw gas stations, car dealerships, and the oil patch into the mix and make direct comparisons to all of those as well... even though they're also different companies, working on different models, and serving different markets.
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:54 PM   #186
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This is a ridiculous comparison that needs to go away already. Costco's business has no relation to McDonalds, and the only similarity to Wal-Mart is that they're both selling SOME similar goods.

Different companies, different models, serving different markets.

Or, you know, you could throw gas stations, car dealerships, and the oil patch into the mix and make direct comparisons to all of those as well... even though they're also different companies, working on different models, and serving different markets.
If they can't survive maybe there business model has to change. Fast food places in Fort Mac pay 14 to 17 bux a hour and they survive.
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Old 11-29-2014, 06:10 PM   #187
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This is a ridiculous comparison that needs to go away already. Costco's business has no relation to McDonalds, and the only similarity to Wal-Mart is that they're both selling SOME similar goods.

Different companies, different models, serving different markets.

Or, you know, you could throw gas stations, car dealerships, and the oil patch into the mix and make direct comparisons to all of those as well... even though they're also different companies, working on different models, and serving different markets.
Explain the differences then. He has a valid argument. Why must they sell the exact same products in order to make it valid? Costco has shown a model in which they can be profitable but at the same time pay their workers a living wage.

The small business argument doesn't hold weight for me either. Yes, it's unfortunate that these changes would adversely affect smaller businesses, but let's be real here, small business has been dying regardless. Large corporations have been shutting down small business for decades now, and it will continue to happen without instating a higher minimum wage. Should we hold back a large section of our population and tax payers just to appease the mom and pop pizza shop?

I don't think anyone is saying that raising the minimum wage is going to fix the issue, but it's a shift toward a better economic ideology in an effort to better balance our society.

More than open to hear other options and solutions to fix the current problem.
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Old 11-29-2014, 06:30 PM   #188
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Explain the differences then.
Explain how they're the same?

Workers in the patch make six figures... so if the difference in industries is irrelevant, then by that logic, McDonalds fry slingers should make six figures as well. I guess if everyone is pulling that down, then a $80 Big Mac should be no problem...
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Old 11-29-2014, 07:46 PM   #189
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Honest question:

Has anyone here personally been laid off/fired specifically from a minimum wage hike?

I know there must be some people working at McDonald's, subway, or other minimum wage jobs while in high school or uni. Were you fired the last time they increased minimum wage?

Instead of all these economic theories, I want to hear some personal stories.
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Old 11-29-2014, 11:41 PM   #190
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This article says graduating College/University will do something High School Diploma did 20 years ago:
Private Student Loan Lenders Start Offering Loan Modifications - Forbes

This article says graduating College/University is the minimum credential for most basic, entry-level job. Just like High School Diploma back in the day:
The college degree has become the new high school degree - The Washington Post

IS A BACHELOR’S DEGREE THE NEW HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA? SOME EMPLOYERS THINK SO:
Is a Bachelor's Degree the New High School Diploma?
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Old 11-30-2014, 02:26 AM   #191
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Explain the differences then. He has a valid argument. Why must they sell the exact same products in order to make it valid? Costco has shown a model in which they can be profitable but at the same time pay their workers a living wage.

The small business argument doesn't hold weight for me either. Yes, it's unfortunate that these changes would adversely affect smaller businesses, but let's be real here, small business has been dying regardless. <font color="red">Large corporations have been shutting down small business for decades now, and it will continue to happen without instating a higher minimum wage</font> . Should we hold back a large section of our population and tax payers just to appease the mom and pop pizza shop?

I don't think anyone is saying that raising the minimum wage is going to fix the issue, but it's a shift toward a better economic ideology in an effort to better balance our society.

More than open to hear other options and solutions to fix the current problem.
May be you can educate me how this.
how does instating a higher min wage will prevent large corporates shutting down small business?
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Old 11-30-2014, 02:42 AM   #192
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If a business has to let go over workers because of a higher wage that means it has too many workers to begin with.
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Old 11-30-2014, 04:22 AM   #193
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If a business lets go of workers while avoiding societal responsibilities like taxes, a safe/clean environment, etc, while paying its executives more than 50 to 100 times or more as its lowest employees, perhaps they should face heavy penalties. Why are companies allowed to make profits in this country while they avoid taxes by creating shell corporations overseas, while they ship jobs overseas or hire "temporary foreign workers" or they weigh the out-of-court-settlement of an incident over adhering to regulations? The burden should not be on workers, it should be on companies. Large corporations are the least patriotic, least responsible, least ethical entities in existence and yet they have the same rights (including relgious freedoms) as you or I in America. While we have tighter regulations in place in Canada, Harper, and those like him, have been doing the dirty work to quietly errode those protections and responsibilies. Scientists have been trying to raise red flags and Haroer has been doing his corporate duty trying to shut them up. Many corporations have shown time and time again they have no allegiance to the countries they operate or the people they employ. Of course raising the minimum wage is futile. Until their is a global effort to reign in the power and wealth these companies hold, to ensure they serve the greater good rather than to line their pocketbook, nothing will change.

To answer an earlier post: liberal is not a negative word so thanks for the compliment, though I don't really consider myself a liberal first and formost. Logic is what I revere most. Should liberal ideals flow from that, then so be it. I used to consider myself conservative
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Old 11-30-2014, 09:17 AM   #194
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Honest question:

Has anyone here personally been laid off/fired specifically from a minimum wage hike?

I know there must be some people working at McDonald's, subway, or other minimum wage jobs while in high school or uni. Were you fired the last time they increased minimum wage?

Instead of all these economic theories, I want to hear some personal stories.
More to the point, has this ever happened due to a FIFTY PERCENT JUMP in the minimum wage, vs. a more common few percentage points? Because BC's minimum wage is $10.25 right now... these people want to push it immediately to $15. $4.75 an hour may not sound like much by itself, but a NEARLY FIFTY PERCENT increase in a major portion of your operating costs, all at once, is hardly trivial.
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Old 11-30-2014, 11:58 AM   #195
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More to the point, has this ever happened due to a FIFTY PERCENT JUMP in the minimum wage, vs. a more common few percentage points? Because BC's minimum wage is $10.25 right now... these people want to push it immediately to $15. $4.75 an hour may not sound like much by itself, but a NEARLY FIFTY PERCENT increase in a major portion of your operating costs, all at once, is hardly trivial.
Didn't Seattle just bumped minimum wage to $15/hr from $9.32/hr?
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:00 PM   #196
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But hey, as of now, bottom line workers getting $10.25/hr and CEO gets $20 million/year
Now workers will get $15/hr and CEO will be making $5 million/year

If they raise minimum wage, somebody else's wage is going to get cut.

Unless they decide to cut operation cost from somewhere else.
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:16 PM   #197
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Wow, this thread is a great reminder of why I fucking hate socialism.

Capitalism is the only social system that rewards virtue and punishes vice.

In the big picture, one province or country raising its minimum wage acts as a temporary fix, eventually globalization will level the playing field and leave those who were once "protected" by their government completely fucked.
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:19 PM   #198
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Minimum wage goes up people spend more creating more jobs. More jobs equals a grater demand for workers. Greater demand for workers equals higher pay. That's another way to look at it.
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But the workers have more money so they spend more making businesses more money.
How do you come to this conclusion? This is a first level worker/consumer point of view

Try to look at it from the other angle of the (not corporation) business owner.

If payroll costs go up 50%, PRODUCT/SERVICES COSTS are going to go up with them.


If Joe Blow minimum wage worker makes $10/hour, and a Mcmeal costs $10, he has to work 1 hour of work to afford that meal

If Joe Blow minimum wage worker gets a minimum wage increase to $15/hour, his Mcmeal is likely to jump to $15, so he STILL HAS TO work 1 hour of work to afford that meal.


He might have more money in his pocket, but the cost of the product hes looking to purchase went up proportional to the increase of money in his pocket, so the VALUE of that money has not changed.

If he doesnt have any more VALUE in his pocket, hes not suddenly going to go buy more shit. So if hes not buying any more shit, businesses don't need to hire more employees to meet that demand

PLUS

Since businesses now have to pay their employees 50% more money, even if by some magic where inflation doesnt exist, even if people are spending more money at that business, the business isn't making more money. And if the business isn't making more money, they aren't likely to go out and do much hiring.


If anything, the business is likely to let some of their current staff go to cut payroll costs (as businesses have a targeted percentage of revenue dedicated to profit/payroll/expenses). And with more people seeking work, there is a possibility for those businesses to replace half assed workers with harder working employees who might bring some of that higher wage value back.



Source:
<--- small business owner with 5+ employees in the $13-$21/hour range
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:24 PM   #199
what manner of phaggotry is this
 
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Not to mention the point of this while minimum wage increase isnt so minimum wage workers can afford more fancy dinners and cool toys, its supposed to be so they can pay rent and afford living essentials. So they shouldn't be out spending their new cash anyway.

And if a minimum wage increase results in a whole bunch of disposable income, instead of essential affordability, it kind of isn't hitting its intended point is it?
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:26 PM   #200
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Honestly, I'm starting to see the light out of all this. I may be making way more than $15 per hour at my current job but maybe I'd consider doing entry level for $15 but without all the stress and responsibilities of my current position.

And if the increase in minimum wage thins out the job market, I assume I'll be way more qualified and possess way more credentials than the joe blows who this minimum wage hike was supposed to help to begin with; so bring it on
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